A couple of rules questions

[Coverfire]

How does Precision strike work? If you roll a six to hit it automatically wounds? and if so does it have an AP value or just what the weapon is? How does it work for Assault cannons?

 

Do Independent Character still need to be in base contact to participate in an assault?

 

Are wolf tail talismans obsolete now with the Deny the Witch special rule?

 

Do we have to roll to hit when casting Murderous Hurricane?

[dswanick]

How does Precision strike work?

BRB, pg.63

If you roll a six to hit it automatically wounds?

No (except in the case of a Rending Precision Shot/strike.

and if so does it have an AP value or just what the weapon is? How does it work for Assault cannons?

As normal, each to-hit 6 will be both Precision Shot and Rending. 

Do Independent Character still need to be in base contact to participate in an assault?

Not always. They simply need to be Locked in Combat and within 2" of a Friendly model Locked in the same Combat (BRB, pgs.22-23). 

Are wolf tail talismans obsolete now with the Deny the Witch special rule?

Absolutely not. They are almost useless on a Rune Priest (except as an inexpensive way to adhere to the Leaders of the Pack rule), but on other Characters they give his unit a Deny the Witch equivalent of being within range of a friendly Pyscher for just five points. 

Do we have to roll to hit when casting Murderous Hurricane?

No. A successful casting causes 3d6 hits on the target unit (C:SW, pg.37).

[Valerian]

Rending is on the To Wound roll, not the To Hit, so it has no bearing on Precision Shots.

 

V

[Coverfire]

Rending is on the To Wound roll, not the To Hit, so it has no bearing on Precision Shots.

 

V

 

 Yes but it doesn't count as an additional wound does it? So you have to decide if you take the automatic hit at AP4 or if you go to a rending hit in which case you may fail to wound altogether...?

 

Another question: Arjac Rockfist conferring stubborn onto his packmates.

Rule: When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule takes Morale checks or Pinning tests, they ignore any negative Leadership modifiers. If a unit is both Fearless and Stubborn, it uses the rules for Fearless instead.

 

FAQ Question: Does Arjac Rockfist confer the Stubborn ability to his unit?  A: No, as he is not an IC...

Fine for 5th but it looks like 6th no longer has the IC clause?

[Russ Brother 92]

 

Rending is on the To Wound roll, not the To Hit, so it has no bearing on Precision Shots.

 

V

 

 Yes but it doesn't count as an additional wound does it? So you have to decide if you take the automatic hit at AP4 or if you go to a rending hit in which case you may fail to wound altogether...?

 

Another question: Arjac Rockfist conferring stubborn onto his packmates.

Rule: When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule takes Morale checks or Pinning tests, they ignore any negative Leadership modifiers. If a unit is both Fearless and Stubborn, it uses the rules for Fearless instead.

 

FAQ Question: Does Arjac Rockfist confer the Stubborn ability to his unit?  A: No, as he is not an IC...

Fine for 5th but it looks like 6th no longer has the IC clause?

 

Our WG only gain the 'character' moniker if they join another pack (not of WG) at which point they would be able to make precision shots, which simply mean that you choose who those possibly rending hits go onto (very useful against special weapons etc.) - also again unless Arjac joins a different unit he isn't an Independent Character as he can't leave the unit and move 'independently'.

 

AFAIK you only get stubborn for him, but it would make sense for it to be his pack as well.

[dswanick]

Another question: Arjac Rockfist conferring stubborn onto his packmates.

Rule: When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule takes Morale checks or Pinning tests, they ignore any negative Leadership modifiers. If a unit is both Fearless and Stubborn, it uses the rules for Fearless instead.

FAQ Question: Does Arjac Rockfist confer the Stubborn ability to his unit? A: No, as he is not an IC...

Fine for 5th but it looks like 6th no longer has the IC clause?

In 5th, Arjac did not confer Stubborn onto his pack. Now, in 6th, he does. The FAQ is a vestige, and GW has changed the way Stubborn works. Yeah for Arjac.

[Squark]

 

Absolutely not. They are almost useless on a Rune Priest (except as an inexpensive way to adhere to the Leaders of the Pack rule), but on other Characters they give his unit a Deny the Witch equivalent of being within range of a friendly Pyscher for just five points.

 

 

Just a minor correction- The psyker has to be in the unit being targeted unless said psyker has a psychic hood (Rune Priests don't), in which case their protection extends to all units within 6" of the Librarian.

[Valerian]

 

 

Rending is on the To Wound roll, not the To Hit, so it has no bearing on Precision Shots.

 

V

Yes but it doesn't count as an additional wound does it? So you have to decide if you take the automatic hit at AP4 or if you go to a rending hit in which case you may fail to wound altogether...?

I don't really get what you're asking here. Precision Shots and Rending are two separate rules that don't affect or impact each other. Precision Shots are something only Characters get, and work on a To Hit roll of a 6. When a 6 is rolled, that Character gets to allocate a specific target in the unit engaged (like a guy with a special close combat weapon, or piece of wargear), rather than the usual rules for allocating wounds. That's just the Hit, though, and the character still has to roll To Wound. Now, if the same Character rolls a 6 on the To Wound roll and happens to have a Rending Weapon, then the strike/shot automatically wounds and counts as an AP2 weapon (so only Invulnerable or Cover Saves). Otherwise, the To Wound roll still has to affect based on the Strength vs Toughness matrix, and the target might get to make an Armour Save, depending on the regular AP of the weapon.

 

V

[Squark]

 

Rending is on the To Wound roll, not the To Hit, so it has no bearing on Precision Shots.

 

V

 

 Yes but it doesn't count as an additional wound does it? So you have to decide if you take the automatic hit at AP4 or if you go to a rending hit in which case you may fail to wound altogether...?

 

Uhh... I think I see the issue. Precision Shots don't auto-wound. You roll to wound seperately against the specific model, but you don't automatically wound.

[Coverfire]

Drop pods... do they arrive one turn 1 or turn 2?

[stinkenheim]

Half (rounding up) arrive at the start of turn 1 with no reserve roll. Remainder are rolled for as normal reserves.

[Zero_2005]

So, I'm going to summarize this thread for easy reading.

 

• Precision hits/shots can by done by any character, even if they do not specifically have that USR. (BRB, P63)
  
• Arjac Rockfist is a character. (SW FAQ v1.2, P7)
  
• Assault rules do not require base contact. Models in either base contact with an enemy or within 2 inches of a model in base contact. (BRB, P23)
  
• Precision hits/shots do not automatically wound. Rending only affects To-Wound rolls of 6, not To-Hit. Precisionhits/shots, BRB, P63. Rending, BRB, P41
  
• Wolftail Talisman deny the witch on a 5+ rather than the normal 6+. (C:SW, P62)
  
• You must roll To-Hit for all witchfire attacks, which Murderous Hurricane is. (BRB, P69)
  
• Arjac does give his squad stubborn, per the USR: Stubborn. (BRB, P43)
  
• Half of the drop pods in reserve (rounding up) arrive automatically on turn one. The remaining drop pods are rolled for as normal per reserve rules. (C:SW, P47)
  

[Squark]

Just one thing- Wolf Tail talismans are NOT deny the witch rolls. They're pretty much functionally identical, but they supersede them, and can protect from powers that don't target models, like blasts that scatter onto another unit. Also, having a psyker in the unit doesn't affect the WTT's roll at all, and vice versa.

[Jarl Deathwolf]

Further, Murderous Hurricane automatically hits.

 

"The target unit takes 3d6 Strength 3 hits..." - pg 37, SW Codex

[Zero_2005]

Just one thing- Wolf Tail talismans are NOT deny the witch rolls. They're pretty much functionally identical, but they supersede them, and can protect from powers that don't target models, like blasts that scatter onto another unit. Also, having a psyker in the unit doesn't affect the WTT's roll at all, and vice versa.

 

True, you must pick either the Wolf Tail Talisman OR the Deny the Witch when attempting to deny a psyker. I worded it like that as you would have to be out of your mind to not take the 5+.

Further, Murderous Hurricane automatically hits.

 

"The target unit takes 3d6 Strength 3 hits..." - pg 37, SW Codex

"Q: Does Murderous Hurricane require the power to hit or wound it's target to affect them?

A: No, a taget unit is affected by Murderous Hurricane even if the power fails to hit or wound."

-Warhammer 40,000 Codex: Space Wolves Official Update for 6th edition, Version 1.2. (Commonly called FAQ)

 

"Witchfire.

Withfire powers are manifested during the Psyker's Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. Witchfire powers are often refered to as psychic shooting attacks... A witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is a blast or large blast, in which case it scatters as normal, or is a template weapon, which hits automatically."

Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, 6th Edition, Page 69.

 

When I take the time to cite things, take the time to look it up before you tell players false information.

[dswanick]

"Q: Does Murderous Hurricane require the power to hit or wound it's target to affect them?

A: No, a taget unit is affected by Murderous Hurricane even if the power fails to hit or wound."

-Warhammer 40,000 Codex: Space Wolves Official Update for 6th edition, Version 1.2. (Commonly called FAQ)

Irrelevant, as a Psychic Power which automatically hits can still miss due to being out of range or line of sight. Remember, this rule was written for 5th Ed, before you could pre-measure range to target. The FAQ Q&A you cited is also a 5th Ed Q&A, and hasn't been updated with the release of 6th. Also, as it is a 5th Ed Power, it doesn't conform the the 6th Ed Psychic Powers Types and sub-types. And well I'm on the subject, there are Witchfire Powers which do not roll to-hit (see below).

"Witchfire.

Withfire powers are manifested during the Psyker's Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. Witchfire powers are often refered to as psychic shooting attacks... A witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is a blast or large blast, in which case it scatters as normal, or is a template weapon, which hits automatically."

Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, 6th Edition, Page 69.

Also irrelevant. The Codex tells you that a successful casting of Murderous Hurricane causes 3d6 hits, and Codex > BRB (BRB, pg.7). So just as there are Witchfire Powers which do not roll to-hit (Beams, Maelstroms, & Novas for example) but have their own special rules for resolving which models are affects, Murderous Hurricane also does not roll to-hit (because of its special rules for resolving).

When I take the time to cite things, take the time to look it up before you tell players false information.

When you take the time to post a snippy response to someone else citing the rules, you might want to take the time to make sure you are right.

[Zero_2005]

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2940050a_Space_Wolves_v1.2_JANUARY13.pdf

 

I'm actually 100% sure that the FAQ I cited is for 6th edition. The giant bold print on the first page tells me so.

 

I'm ending this debate before one of us gets banned. You should be ashamed for giving players false information and rules. It is like we are playing two different games, where I follow the rules as written and you ignore them.

[dswanick]

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2940050a_Space_Wolves_v1.2_JANUARY13.pdf

 

I'm actually 100% sure that the FAQ I cited is for 6th edition. The giant bold print on the first page tells me so.

 

I'm ending this debate before one of us gets banned. You should be ashamed for giving players false information and rules. It is like we are playing two different games, where I follow the rules as written and you ignore them.

Here's a link to my archived copy of "m2170015a_Space_Wolves_FAQ_Version_1_2_January_2012.pdf" which is the last 5th Ed C:SW FAQ doc.  Notice that even in this one, the rule was in black indicating that it wasn't new to the version of the FAQ.  So it is vestigial.

 

http://ppl.ug/QMHUQ2T14cA/

 

Which wouldn't matter if it actually called for a to-hit roll using MH, but it doesn't.  It simply acknowledges that MH can "miss", and I've given you examples of how that can be without a to-hit roll.

 

 

As for your "rules as written" claim - read the rules on pg.7 where the BRB tells you that Codex rules override BRB rules when in conflict.  You are correct that we are playing two different games, bnut you are not playing by the rules if you don't play that MH causes 3d6 hits.  So stop ignoring the rules you find inconvenient, and stop presenting your incorrect interpretations of rules as fact.

[Zero_2005]

 

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2940050a_Space_Wolves_v1.2_JANUARY13.pdf

 

I'm actually 100% sure that the FAQ I cited is for 6th edition. The giant bold print on the first page tells me so.

 

I'm ending this debate before one of us gets banned. You should be ashamed for giving players false information and rules. It is like we are playing two different games, where I follow the rules as written and you ignore them.

Here's a link to my archived copy of "m2170015a_Space_Wolves_FAQ_Version_1_2_January_2012.pdf" which is the last 5th Ed C:SW FAQ doc.  Notice that even in this one, the rule was in black indicating that it wasn't new to the version of the FAQ.  So it is vestigial.

 

http://ppl.ug/QMHUQ2T14cA/

 

Which wouldn't matter if it actually called for a to-hit roll using MH, but it doesn't.  It simply acknowledges that MH can "miss", and I've given you examples of how that can be without a to-hit roll.

 

 

As for your "rules as written" claim - read the rules on pg.7 where the BRB tells you that Codex rules override BRB rules when in conflict.  You are correct that we are playing two different games, bnut you are not playing by the rules if you don't play that MH causes 3d6 hits.  So stop ignoring the rules you find inconvenient, and stop presenting your incorrect interpretations of rules as fact.

you are running the 2012 faq. I am running 2013. My citations are accurate, invalidating yours. Read the updated FAQ.

[Squark]

There's nothing in the FAQ that says Murderous Hurricane requires you to roll to hit. I think the issue here is that the term "psychic shooting attack" was used a lot more liberally in 5th edition, whereas all witchfire powers are fairly similar in scope.

 

A 5th edition Psychic shooting attack didn't always need to roll to hit. While pedantically we're still in a bit of a grey area here I guess because Psychic shooting attack is, according to the BRB, another term for witchfire (p. 69, 4th paragraph). However, since Jaws of the World Wolf, another psychic shooting attack that did not follow the traditional profile, does not require you to roll to hit (Jan. 2013 FAQ, page 4, 2nd column, 2nd question), it's rational to extend the same interpretation to Murderous Hurricane.

 

The reason Dsawnick cited an older FAQ was to point out that you're citing a ruling that's vestigal and hasn't been cleaned up. In 5th edition, Murderous Hurricane could "miss" by targeting a unit that was out of range. Now that pre-measuring is a thing... Well, you can still technically do that. But you wouldn't.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

@zero- he is pointing out that the rule you cited is not new, not using the old faq. Read the whole post before you retaliate.

[Valerian]

New guy should probably tone it down a bit.  The "I'm right and you're wrong" approach isn't how we operate here in the Fang.

 

Valerian

[Max_Dammit]

keep it cool boys

[Sohail187]

Slightly off topic!!! and turn attention away from the drama a bit. I have a question which i did not want to start a whole topic for. If you have a squad of WGTDA, can a Rune Priest in normal power join that squad? or does the rune priest also have to take TDA.

[dswanick]

Slightly off topic!!! and turn attention away from the drama a bit. I have a question which i did not want to start a whole topic for. If you have a squad of WGTDA, can a Rune Priest in normal power join that squad? or does the rune priest also have to take TDA.

That's fine. Any IC can join any squad regardless of their various armors worn (and discounting any unique special rules the units may have that limit their ability to join).