Guilliman's Favored Brothers

[atrox_futurus]

Hail all, just a quick question, and if it's been asked already I'm sorry.

 

In "Know No Fear" Guilliman mentioned that he has four or five 'favored brothers' who he would want by his side in any impossible mission, or in any apocalyptic showdown, and I wanted to know if anyone has the quote or could remember which Primarchs they were.

 

I know one was Leman Russ, and another was Ferrus Manus. I think another was Rogal Dorn, but thats mostly just an assumption.

 

If anyone can help me with the last few I would greatly appreciate it.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Roboute_Guilliman#.UgmMDpLVD4c

 

Dorn, Sanguinius, Russ, Manus. Google's your friend 

[atrox_futurus]

skimmed through that cause I wasn't sure which section it was in, must've just missed it. Thanks

[b1soul]

Really don't know why Ferrus and his legion of dolts ranks among the Dauntless Few. I love the Iron Hands but BL has done a really bad job of portraying them as an intelligent, efficient fighting force

[atrox_futurus]

The stories haven't really done him much justice, but their mentality makes sense for it.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Daubtless Few are just the Primarch who can overcome anything.

[Kol Saresk]

That's because they aren't a cohesive force during the Heresy. Most of the Legion wasn't even at the Dropsite Massacre and both their Primarch and the overwhelming majority of their veteran Astartes are dead. They scattered like the wind. It may take effort to break an Astartes fighting force, but when it breaks, it shatters.

[Legatus]

I allways assumed that Guilliman would have gotten along well with Fulgrim. Both were very focused on strict training regimens and constantly seeking to optimise the performance of their men, so they would have seen eye to eye on a lot of issues. The FW "Betrayal" book even has Guilliman praising the Emperor's Childrens' mastery of his own tactics in one campaign. The only thing that could perhaps have put Guilliman off might have been the fanaticism with which the Emperor's Children just tried to outdo everyone else. But performance-wise I don't think the Emperor's Children were short of most of the other Legions. 

Plus, if Guilliman and Fulgrim had been sort of close during the Crusade, then their final confrontation and Guilliman's demise would feel a bit more tragic. Too bad the BL authors did not go for that, perhaps because subconciously they only though loyalist Primarchs would be viable for being close to Guilliman. (I think cases could be made for why Guilliman would have gotten along well with Horus or Perturabo as well.) Perhaps a bit of a missed opportunity. 

[Greyall]

Notice how in the Lexicanum article (and the Know no Fear passage, as well) it states he could win any war. All of those Primarchs are able to follow orders while maintaining a solid personality and individuality. You have the backbone (Imperial Fists), inspiration/talent (Blood Angels), versatility (Ultramarines), the right block-shattering punch (Iron Hands) and the left punch to which incidentally you've strapped a jagged blade just in case everything goes to hell (Space Wolves). Makes perfect sense as the perfect team.

 

Horus uses the Legions to their strength but has a tendency to always follow his Headshot strategy - which has yet to be proven wrong but is taxing in terms of lives.

[Legatus]

IIRC in the novel it was said that Guilliman thought he could win any war if he was teamed up with either of those Primarchs, not neccessarily with all of them at the same time. 

[Greyall]

The Lexicanum mentions "if he had those four at his side", but this being Lexicanum and your option being reasonable, I can't be sure.

 

Information about the Iron Hands' strategic preferences is scarce. Angel Exterminatus shows them as tactically conventional (in Astartes terms) but very resolute in the face of hard odds. However, this being a ragtag group of survivors, they'll obviously be more cautious. From what we can see of the Chapter's tactics both in 30K and 40K, it seems they were one for blunt force, breaking both bodies and morale.

[Týr]

From Know no Fear page 350

 

" With any one of those key four - Dorn, Russ, Manus or Sanguinius - Guilliman always claimed he could win any war. Outright. Against any foe."

[Greyall]

Solved, then. Thanks, Tyr.

 

Edit: A closer look at those Legions reveals something that may or may not be meaningful - they are all generalist Legions, to an extent. Sure, the Fists are siege masters, but nothing as strict as the Iron Warriors. The Iron Hands are blunt but not nearly as much as the Death Guard. The Blood Angels are not even close to the World Eaters. The Space Wolves have no distinct trait to their warfare, either - other than being ruthless -, making use of all kinds of units.

 

Of course labelling a Legion of 100.000 Marines is hard, every Legion uses all kinds of squads and warmachines, but Guilliman's group's are pretty much defined only by their inner traits. Which reinforces his mention of the Primarchs only and not their Legions. What's trully important for Guilliman is that he is paired with his most trusted, relatable brothers. Pretty warmish for a master logistician. 

Edited August 13, 2013 by Greyall

[Jareddm]

I think the point about them being able to take orders well still stands. Notice he is referring to the primarchs, not necessarily their legions. Perhaps part of it is he has faith that these four have the absolute trust and loyalty of their legions, in addition to being willing to follow an overall plan of attack. Being on good terms with Guilliman probably helps as well.

[jeremy1391]

I think the point about them being able to take orders well still stands. Notice he is referring to the primarchs, not necessarily their legions. Perhaps part of it is he has faith that these four have the absolute trust and loyalty of their legions, in addition to being willing to follow an overall plan of attack. Being on good terms with Guilliman probably helps as well.

Except when Ferrus made all hast to Istvaan with only a fraction of his legion.

 

Or when Dorn almost went into open conflict for not wanting to break up his legion.

 

Or sanguinius hiding the red thirst from everyone but horus.

 

Or Russ being Russ and not even trying to adhere to the codex astartes...

 

I don't think Gulliman saw them as being good at following orders but just being overall the most able to compliment gullimans way of war.

[Balthamal]

 

 

 

 

I think the point about them being able to take orders well still stands. Notice he is referring to the primarchs, not necessarily their legions. Perhaps part of it is he has faith that these four have the absolute trust and loyalty of their legions, in addition to being willing to follow an overall plan of attack. Being on good terms with Guilliman probably helps as well.

Except when Ferrus made all hast to Istvaan with only a fraction of his legion.

 

Or when Dorn almost went into open conflict for not wanting to break up his legion.

 

Or sanguinius hiding the red thirst from everyone but horus.

 

Or Russ being Russ and not even trying to adhere to the codex astartes...

 

I don't think Gulliman saw them as being good at following orders but just being overall the most able to compliment gullimans way of war.

 

Think that last point sums it up perfectly. It never states that Guilliman counted the Fists for siege craft or the Blood Angels for being shock troops. Indeed he added the Iron Hands because of Ferrus Manus "If he was with you he would never break, would never yield" or something along those lines. Maybe it boils down to him being able to incorporate them easiest along with the disposition of his own legion, as though the XIII would be able to fill in any "blind spots" of the others as it were.

 

Also theres a comment about how Gulliman respects the Khan greatly but simply doesn't trust him or his legion to form any part of a wider strategy given the fact they operate pretty much like the wind

 

[Conn Eremon]

It has been mentioned that Guilliman is talking about the Primarchs and not the Legions.

 

The two are probably one and the same as far as that quote goes. When he is talking about his brothers, the addition of their Legions is taken for granted. Just as if he had said the Imperial Fists, meaning Rogal Dorn as well. He isn't making a statement by referring to Primarchs, he's simply referencing them as peers.

[Emperor's Furor]

I think trust is a key thing here, Guilliman can trust those Primarchs to do what they are meant to do, want someone to plug a gap and hold position for days on end, the fists or the hands will do that, want to go on the offensive and assault something without question the blood angels and space wolves will do their utmost to accomplish that and all other things are put aside.

 

You can't trust the death guard or iron warriors, they'll end up blighting or destroying the land without thought, you can't trust the night lords or world eaters they'll butcher anything, you can't trust the dark angels or emperor's children, they'll think their plan is better, you can't trust the salamanders they'll sacrifice themselves before they kill a large population of humans for an objective etc etc.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Its not their strengths that make them special, its that they cover each others weaknesses, play it from the other Primarchs point of view having to work with Guilliman, 

 

Imperial fists - Strong tactical discipline, unflinching, by the book - 'Guilliman my man! welcome aboard!'

 

Space Wolves - Head Strong, cunning, "by their book" - 'Well leave the tactics to the Ultras, so we can focus on the REAL FIGHTING!'

 

Blood Angels - Disciplined, well organised, sense of honour, 'We can trust Guilliman and his men to support us in our actions as they could expect us to do the same'

 

Iron Hands - Competitive, Fiercely loyal, sense of right, - 'Guilliman, He has big metal fists..............i like him!'

Edited August 13, 2013 by The_son_of_Dorn

[Týr]

From page 350 of Know No Fear:

 

" 'Corax and Vulcan I will mourn dearly. But Manus I will miss most of all.'

Gage  knows what his primarch means. In all tactical simulations, Guilliman shows particular favour for certain of his brothers. He refers to them as the dauntless few, the ones he can most truly depend upon to do what they were made to do. Dorn and his legion are one. Illtempered, argumentative Russ is another. Sanguinius is a third. Guilliman admires the Khan greatly, but the White Scars are neither preditable nor trustworthy. Ferrus Manus and the Iron Hands were always the fourth of the dauntless few. With any of those key four - Dorn, Russ, Manus or Sanguinius - Guilliman always claimed he could win any war. Outright. Against any foe.

Even in extremis, the Ultramarines could compact with any of those four allies and take down any foe. It was primary theoretical. In any doomsday scenario that faced the Imperium, Guilliman could play it out to a practical win provided he could rely on one of those four. And of them, Manus was the key. Implacable. Unshakeable. If he was at your side, he would never break' "

 

It's all from the POV of Gage. From the quote it shows that discussing if he refers to primarch or legion doesn't matter. Here it at first means the personal traits of his brothers, but it is ment to be understood that these traits are transferred to their legions in the bigger picture.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Týr

[Týr]

Its not their strengths that make them special, its that they cover each others weaknesses, play it from the other Primarchs point of view having to work with Guilliman, 

 

Imperial fists - Strong tactical discipline, unflinching, by the book - 'Guilliman my man! welcome aboard!'

 

Space Wolves - Head Strong, cunning, "by their book" - 'Well leave the tactics to the Ultras, so we can focus on the REAL FIGHTING!'

 

Blood Angels - Disciplined, well organised, sense of honour, 'We can trust Guilliman and his men to support us in our actions as they could expect us to do the same'

 

Iron Hands - Competitive, Fiercely loyal, sense of right, - 'Guilliman, He has big metal fists..............i like him!'

 

So many Legion cliches at once. I really hope that we can soon move beyond the cliché fluff trait each Legions have.

All those HH books should soon have shown us that there is so much more to each legion than: - 'these guys rock at building a fortress'

The cliché that clings to each legion can go straight for the garbage bin. It tells you nothing about the legion

[The_son_of_Dorn]

 

Its not their strengths that make them special, its that they cover each others weaknesses, play it from the other Primarchs point of view having to work with Guilliman, 

 

Imperial fists - Strong tactical discipline, unflinching, by the book - 'Guilliman my man! welcome aboard!'

 

Space Wolves - Head Strong, cunning, "by their book" - 'Well leave the tactics to the Ultras, so we can focus on the REAL FIGHTING!'

 

Blood Angels - Disciplined, well organised, sense of honour, 'We can trust Guilliman and his men to support us in our actions as they could expect us to do the same'

 

Iron Hands - Competitive, Fiercely loyal, sense of right, - 'Guilliman, He has big metal fists..............i like him!'

 

So many Legion cliches at once. I really hope that we can soon move beyond the cliché fluff trait each Legions have.

All those HH books should soon have shown us that there is so much more to each legion than: - 'these guys rock at building a fortress'

The cliché that clings to each legion can go straight for the garbage bin. It tells you nothing about the legion

 

Of that I am aware, an ultramarine could defend a fortress just the same as an imperial fist, i'm just saying that under Dorn an Ultra could do it better. 

[Kol Saresk]

I wou;dn't quite say it that way. More like if Dorn and Guilliman worked together, the Fists and Ultras would work together to be better as a whole than they would be individually.

[Captain Idaho]

Although Gage may not have had thd whole picture, he knew the practical simulations results and wouldn't have been lying to himself in contemplation.

 

The dauntless few are just that; those who had no real military flaw (at the time) and were reliable in every way that mattered. It's no coincidence the Emperor also favoured the very same Legions and Primarchs heavily, I believe.

 

Regarding Fulgrim; reliability is probably a problem especially for his glory hunting Legion. I imagine Fulgrim got on with most Primarchs but Guilliman didn't regard him as a true friend. Only Sanguinius, Manus, Dorn and Horus could claim that.

 

Fulgrim and Guilliman are work friends. You get on well and even have a laugh but when you get a new job you don't stay in touch.

 

Anyway, does anyone really wish there would be a Great Crusade series? Seeing the brotherhood how it should have been?

[Apothecary Vaddon]

A GC Thunder Warriors series would be pretty sick. The beginnings of the GC, striking out from Terra, retaking the Sol System. That could be a multiple-trilogy series in and of itself. Proto-Astartes, genebred regiments, all fighting under the lightning banner. And the maestro of kickass himself mowing down the enemies of man.

What I'd absolutely love is a pre-Strife novel. I wouldn't want to hash it all out, but maybe something that takes place right before the crazy warpstorms, as a reflection on what humanity was about to achieve. Form what we've seen/read, mankind was roflstomping everyone and everything, and was very, very close to total domination. We've seen several references to mankind on the cusp of true greatness - the latest example being Death of Integrity, and how the AI remarks that "Into the warp I went, fifteen thousand years ago. Cast adrift by the storms that wracked the galaxy as man’s apotheosis drew near." (p. 619 ebook). I want to see how it all unraveled.