Why are there no female primarchs?

[Kol Saresk]

Maybe we can get Sarah Cawkwell to do some pro-female stories. I rather liked Valkia the Bloody. Even if she did kill every man she looked at.

[Entei]

Abnett is great at writing female characters. http://requireshate.wordpress.com/2011/04/30/in-the-grim-darkness-of-the-future-one-author-is-a-better-feminist-ally-than-joss-whedon/

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Perhaps an analogy might explain my point better;

 

Most lawyers work in Superior Court, here in Ontario. Some work almost exclusively in Small Claims Court/Tribunals. Whether you do Superior or Small Claims/Tribunals, you're still a lawyer. Not many Small Claims lawyers can raise their game to a level that would win for you in Superior Court. That is my point. 

 

GW writers are Small Claims/Tribunal lawyers, perfectly adequate at what they do but, generally, unable to raise their game to anything that isn't pulpy-sci-fi/fantasy. Asking them to convincingly write female or alien characters is like asking a Small Claims/Tribunal lawyer to represent you at the Court of Appeal. They might be able to do it, but all evidence is that they can't.  

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Abnett is great at writing female characters. http://requireshate.wordpress.com/2011/04/30/in-the-grim-darkness-of-the-future-one-author-is-a-better-feminist-ally-than-joss-whedon/

 

Not really. He avoided most of the common pitfalls. That's not great writing, that's adequate. It only looks great because it's a pinpoint of light on a dark, dark horizon.

[Greyall]

Ciaphas Cain supposedly has some very well-written female characters.

 

And I found none of the women in the HH books I read lacking. ADB's World Eater Ship Captain is pretty awesome, but so are most of the others.

 

Again, nothing wrong with the 40k universe, gender equality-wise. Actually, it's very pertinent of them to avoid falling into sexist controversy, though it also shows just how a few unforgiving moralist flaw-hunters put the fear in entire companies.

[Týr]

When men (specifically nerds) write female characters, there is a lot of inadvertent stereotyping and things that could be construed as sexist that men don't think about or find offensive, that a woman might. For instance, Tyr, you picked the Primarch obsessed with control, looking perfect, how others feel about him, and prone to -fits when his feelings get hurt. Personally, I feel like that is a poor characterization of an alpha female, falling into all the tropes of a woman in power.

*sigh*

It's not because of Fulgrims traits as a Primarch but his personality and how it's described that I think it could be cool.

But... :cuss it's to diffucult to explain.

*Flips table and walks away

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m26nvnNG5o1qkk10ro1_500.jpg

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Ciaphas Cain supposedly has some very well-written female characters.

 

And I found none of the women in the HH books I read lacking. ADB's World Eater Ship Captain is pretty awesome, but so are most of the others.

 

Again, nothing wrong with the 40k universe, gender equality-wise. Actually, it's very pertinent of them to avoid falling into sexist controversy, though it also shows just how a few unforgiving moralist flaw-hunters put the fear in entire companies.

 

Inquisitor Amberley Vail is just such a character, aside from the fact that she only exists to give Cain someone to bang. 

 

The problem is, they're all side characters in Cain's stories. Even Vail is little more than a footnote.

[Cerbero666]

Well, male characters are more used in fiction as warriors because that's what they are. Evolutionarily men are more used to violence and aggressiveness than women. It's logical, women gave birth, they perpetuated our species, so they needed protection, men on the other side developed a more violent behavior, to protect the family, clan, tribe, whatever. Men are designed to be warriors, hunters, soldiers, women not so much, there are still cases but less than those of men. So I don't think is some kind of discrimination is more that historically men have been (for the most part) the agresive side of humanity and women the calm side. So when there's a warrior archetype it's a man who usually plays that role. Then, if you need and explanation of why the Emperor didn't create (supposedly) any female primarch, it could be because he needed that kind of violence and usage to war that men can offer most likely.

 

And if you need and explanation why GW designers didn't create any female primarch is could be easy too. This game has a vast majority of male public (even more when it started many years ago), that's the sad truth, and let's face it, it's easier to a man to feel identified to a male character than to a female character. So when they created characters so many years ago (that of the primarchs specifically) it was logical to design them as male, because the male public wanted to feel identified with the guys they were playing, and for the writers (being men) it was easier to write male characters than female characters. 

 

But I like it as it is. I think the fact that are less female characters than male gives them more importance. I'm so tired of male characters in WH that when someone writes a Lotara, Octavia, Valkia, Euphrati, etc... I get more interested for them than for the other 5 thousand male characters around the galaxy. 

[Kol Saresk]

So who would actually write a completely alien culture? Most of the attempts I have seen are failed attempts. Attempts that I enjoyed reading and will reread, but most alien POVs are based on taking a human POV and then making it weird. That can be said of all science fiction authors to one degree or another.

 

You see, the analogy you are using doesn't fit well because considering how many men in the weird are able to easily pass as women and vice versa, no human can ever pass or even think as an alien. That's why it is alien. Your analogy implies that somewhere out there is a human author who does not think like a human. But thinks like an alien. I have yet to see a sci-fi alien that is actually, truly one hundred percent alien. Usually the authors(And I'm talking about David Weber, C.J. Cherryh, Raymond Feist and Timothy Zahn) usually end up going for a POV that the majority of their readers are going to "Wow, that is totally not how I see it." Look at Americans and their views regarding suicide. But once upon a time, Japan preached that if you failed in your duties, suicide was one of the best ways to recover your honor.

 

I know one female author at BL. Sarah Cawkwell. She wrote Valkia. Many attributes she put into Valkia can be found in many strong, feminist, non-sexist, female characters. Traits that are shared in common with Dan Abnett's female characters. But I guess that a woman writing a female character in a style similar to Dan Abnett is only an adequate female author when it comes to writing females.

 

So for curiosity's sake, who would you recommend as Supreme Court-level author at writing aliens? Or a male author that is more than adequate at writing female authors? Because I gotta tell ya, watching and reading some of the female characters made by female authors, I think GW does a very good job of not being sexist.

 

Although I find it interesting that men are the "more aggressive gender" yet is women who get the saying "Hell hath no fury".

[Entei]

What would you say constitutes a great female character, Res Ipsa Loquitur?

I think like you that avoiding the stereotypical pitfalls makes an adequate female character, and if the character is on top of that greatly written(when looking at agency and non-sexuality influenced characteristics), you have a great female character. You may of course disagree about the quality of Abnetts characters.

[Cerbero666]

So who would actually write a completely alien culture? Most of the attempts I have seen are failed attempts. Attempts that I enjoyed reading and will reread, but most alien POVs are based on taking a human POV and then making it weird. That can be said of all science fiction authors to one degree or another.

 

You see, the analogy you are using doesn't fit well because considering how many men in the weird are able to easily pass as women and vice versa, no human can ever pass or even think as an alien. That's why it is alien. Your analogy implies that somewhere out there is a human author who does not think like a human. But thinks like an alien. I have yet to see a sci-fi alien that is actually, truly one hundred percent alien. Usually the authors(And I'm talking about David Weber, C.J. Cherryh, Raymond Feist and Timothy Zahn) usually end up going for a POV that the majority of their readers are going to "Wow, that is totally not how I see it." Look at Americans and their views regarding suicide. But once upon a time, Japan preached that if you failed in your duties, suicide was one of the best ways to recover your honor.

 

I know one female author at BL. Sarah Cawkwell. She wrote Valkia. Many attributes she put into Valkia can be found in many strong, feminist, non-sexist, female characters. Traits that are shared in common with Dan Abnett's female characters. But I guess that a woman writing a female character in a style similar to Dan Abnett is only an adequate female author when it comes to writing females.

 

So for curiosity's sake, who would you recommend as Supreme Court-level author at writing aliens? Or a male author that is more than adequate at writing female authors? Because I gotta tell ya, watching and reading some of the female characters made by female authors, I think GW does a very good job of not being sexist.

 

Although I find it interesting that men are the "more aggressive gender" yet is women who get the saying "Hell hath no fury".

 

About the last point I would like to point out that the saying "Hell hath no fury" it's more for their cold minded than for their aggressiveness. Men tend more to punch the face of someone who offends them, women are more of waiting and plan a counterattack. 

[The 13th Goat]

Because most 40k fans are males, as are the people who write for them. And lets face it, if those writers could convincingly write out of their own skin, as it were, they wouldn't be working for GW. That's why almost all 40k fiction is told from the POV of humanity; the writers aren't good enough to convincingly present an alien POV*. 

 

I personally would rather they leave women out almost completely than incorporate the oh-so-tired female tropes so prevalent in other sci-fi/fantasy.

 

*Note - This doesn't mean I think I'm a better fiction writer than they are, but then I don't get paid to write fiction, despite what some defendants say about my Statement of Claims.

 

I found all of the Path Of The Eldar book's great, as did I enjoy the female character's like ADB's Octavius (The Night Lords series), Sandy Mitchell's Amberley Vail (Ciaphus Cain), Amendera Kendel (The Horus Heresy Series) and others present in much of the 40k novels. As for struggling with point's of view, an Astartes hardly has a normal concept of life.

 

I think your very quick to dismiss the relative gender nutrality prevelent in the 40k universe, and the skill of sci-fi writers that have helped craft one of the most interesting Sci-fi narratives around. 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

It doesn't matter what gender the writer is, all that matters is their talent. 

 

Of course some females write terrible female characters just like some males write terrible male characters; it's because they aren't good writers. Gender isn't some magic insight bullet.

 

And yes, if a female had written Abnett's character it would still only be adequate. Again, gender doesn't matter. Talent does. 

 

No, I can't give you any recommendations because, other than BL, I don't read that sort of literature.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

So who would actually write a completely alien culture? Most of the attempts I have seen are failed attempts. Attempts that I enjoyed reading and will reread, but most alien POVs are based on taking a human POV and then making it weird. That can be said of all science fiction authors to one degree or another.

 

You see, the analogy you are using doesn't fit well because considering how many men in the weird are able to easily pass as women and vice versa, no human can ever pass or even think as an alien. That's why it is alien. Your analogy implies that somewhere out there is a human author who does not think like a human. But thinks like an alien. I have yet to see a sci-fi alien that is actually, truly one hundred percent alien. Usually the authors(And I'm talking about David Weber, C.J. Cherryh, Raymond Feist and Timothy Zahn) usually end up going for a POV that the majority of their readers are going to "Wow, that is totally not how I see it." Look at Americans and their views regarding suicide. But once upon a time, Japan preached that if you failed in your duties, suicide was one of the best ways to recover your honor.

 

I know one female author at BL. Sarah Cawkwell. She wrote Valkia. Many attributes she put into Valkia can be found in many strong, feminist, non-sexist, female characters. Traits that are shared in common with Dan Abnett's female characters. But I guess that a woman writing a female character in a style similar to Dan Abnett is only an adequate female author when it comes to writing females.

 

So for curiosity's sake, who would you recommend as Supreme Court-level author at writing aliens? Or a male author that is more than adequate at writing female authors? Because I gotta tell ya, watching and reading some of the female characters made by female authors, I think GW does a very good job of not being sexist.

 

Although I find it interesting that men are the "more aggressive gender" yet is women who get the saying "Hell hath no fury".

 

About the last point I would like to point out that the saying "Hell hath no fury" it's more for their cold minded than for their aggressiveness. Men tend more to punch the face of someone who offends them, women are more of waiting and plan a counterattack.

 

 

You should meet my sister. Most of my head injuries are from her not waiting and not being patient. Not saying you're wrong, just that there is more than one aspect to that saying.

 

EDIT: Res, who would you say is a competent author at writing females? I gotta admit, some of the more "lauded" female characters I have heard about, usually fall right into those sexist pit traps. And that's with women writing them.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

 

Because most 40k fans are males, as are the people who write for them. And lets face it, if those writers could convincingly write out of their own skin, as it were, they wouldn't be working for GW. That's why almost all 40k fiction is told from the POV of humanity; the writers aren't good enough to convincingly present an alien POV*. 

 

I personally would rather they leave women out almost completely than incorporate the oh-so-tired female tropes so prevalent in other sci-fi/fantasy.

 

*Note - This doesn't mean I think I'm a better fiction writer than they are, but then I don't get paid to write fiction, despite what some defendants say about my Statement of Claims.

 

I found all of the Path Of The Eldar book's great, as did I enjoy the female character's like ADB's Octavius and Sand Mitchell's Amberley Vail present in much 40k novels. As for struggling with point's of view, an Astartes hardly has a normal concept of life.

 

I think your very quick to dismiss the relative gender nutrality prevelent in the 40k universe, and the skill of sci-fi writers that have helped craft one of the most interesting Sci-fi narratives around. 

 

ADB is different. That dude could be nobel laureate if he wanted to be.

 

I already mentioned Sandy Mitchell. Vail is, IMO, the best female character ever written by BL which is good, but also sad for a whole host of reasons. 

[Cerbero666]

 

 

So who would actually write a completely alien culture? Most of the attempts I have seen are failed attempts. Attempts that I enjoyed reading and will reread, but most alien POVs are based on taking a human POV and then making it weird. That can be said of all science fiction authors to one degree or another.

 

You see, the analogy you are using doesn't fit well because considering how many men in the weird are able to easily pass as women and vice versa, no human can ever pass or even think as an alien. That's why it is alien. Your analogy implies that somewhere out there is a human author who does not think like a human. But thinks like an alien. I have yet to see a sci-fi alien that is actually, truly one hundred percent alien. Usually the authors(And I'm talking about David Weber, C.J. Cherryh, Raymond Feist and Timothy Zahn) usually end up going for a POV that the majority of their readers are going to "Wow, that is totally not how I see it." Look at Americans and their views regarding suicide. But once upon a time, Japan preached that if you failed in your duties, suicide was one of the best ways to recover your honor.

 

I know one female author at BL. Sarah Cawkwell. She wrote Valkia. Many attributes she put into Valkia can be found in many strong, feminist, non-sexist, female characters. Traits that are shared in common with Dan Abnett's female characters. But I guess that a woman writing a female character in a style similar to Dan Abnett is only an adequate female author when it comes to writing females.

 

So for curiosity's sake, who would you recommend as Supreme Court-level author at writing aliens? Or a male author that is more than adequate at writing female authors? Because I gotta tell ya, watching and reading some of the female characters made by female authors, I think GW does a very good job of not being sexist.

 

Although I find it interesting that men are the "more aggressive gender" yet is women who get the saying "Hell hath no fury".

 

About the last point I would like to point out that the saying "Hell hath no fury" it's more for their cold minded than for their aggressiveness. Men tend more to punch the face of someone who offends them, women are more of waiting and plan a counterattack.

 

You should meet my sister. Most of my head injuries are from her not waiting and not being patient.

 

Haha there are exceptions of course, I meant for the most part. There are cold minded men too, but at a lower percentage.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, I edited part of that. i wasn't trying to say you were wrong, just that the point of the saying is pissing a woman off never ends well regardless of how she reacts.

[Greyall]

Whatever the psychological and biological fundamentals, men have been the warfaring, defending, brawling gender in the human species for thousands of years, with notable exceptions like Boudika, Joan of Arc and your sister, Kol. =) (just kidding) Whether right or wrong, or whether that's changing in the latter years, it has been so.

 

Knightly orders are one such example. They were all composed by men and are the stuff of legend. They also inspired the Space Marines, so it's only fitting the faction remains entirely male, also because, as was said, the majority of the playerbase will more readily identify with male heroes.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

They had no problem updating Knightly Order to ride motorbikes, carry firearms and utilise armoured vehicles, would adding women be such a stretch?

 

GW write about war and men are more war-like is inadequate justification for the paucity of female characters in 40k and not justificatin at all for the general poor-quality of female characters. 

 

Although GW have managed to avoid having sexually-promiscuous, seven-feet tall women with enormous breasts and waists you could encircle with one hand, who go to war dressed like a gymnast on her way to a night of BDSM. Barely. 

 

IMO, those types of characters are worse than none at all. So there's that.

[Kol Saresk]

Whatever the psychological and biological fundamentals, men have been the warfaring, defending, brawling gender in the human species for thousands of years, with notable exceptions like Boudika, Joan of Arc and your sister, Kol. =) (just kidding) Whether right or wrong, or whether that's changing in the latter years, it has been so.

 

Knightly orders are one such example. They were all composed by men and are the stuff of legend. They also inspired the Space Marines, so it's only fitting the faction remains entirely male, also because, as was said, the majority of the playerbase will more readily identify with male heroes.

True enough. Just a point of curiosity, since history is written by the victors and most of the victors are men, I wonder just how much history is lost. Especially history that pertains to women. Nothing is new under the sun after all so I don't female fighters are as new as we like to think they are. Just as a point of curiosity.

[Greyall]

Aye, you have female characters taking double looks at nude or seminude Astartes in some novels, imagine the same scene with a male Imperial Guardsman or an Adeptus looking at a 7-feet-tall athletic woman. Double looks would be the least of our problems.

 

It would probably prevent the deployment of Penal Legions and some of the more unruly conventional ones alongside Astartes. Or even some kind of chemical "treatment" to quell urges.

 

I have to say I'm all for change so long as the flaw is blatant, but I don't find this to be the case, the universe is assumedly equalitarian. So changing for the sake of conscience-cleaning is meh, at best, and stirring a hornet's nest at worst.

 

Edit: Great point, Kol. Well, my view is that the saying "Behind every great man there is a great woman" is very true, though maybe not in the traditional, more sexist way, but rather as a true partner or even above said man. Regarding fighters, there's bound to be many more of them than what we know, but most cultures did keep women from battles (even if they didn't exactly treat them fairly everyday).

[Marshal Rohr]

The other thing is already being exemplified in several of the example. Using broad strokes is the biggest problem. I got my :cuss kicked by a female MP who threw my fat :cuss around during combatives. I've seen a male cop go down crying after getting punched in the nose and the unruly bar patron get away. There are men who suck at fighting. Women who excel. It's not gender specific.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Aye, you have female characters taking double looks at nude or seminude Astartes in some novels, imagine the same scene with a male Imperial Guardsman or an Adeptus looking at a 7-feet-tall athletic woman. Double looks would be the least of our problems.

 

Death by snoo-snoo.

[Greyall]

Awesome

[Kol Saresk]

The other thing is already being exemplified in several of the example. Using broad strokes is the biggest problem. I got my kicked by a female MP who threw my fat around during combatives. I've seen a male cop go down crying after getting punched in the nose and the unruly bar patron get away. There are men who suck at fighting. Women who excel. It's not gender specific.

Yep. Granted, since the Astartes are basically knightly Spartoi(look up Cadmus for that one if you don't know it) combined with the "better to not represent than offend" attitude, which is entirely plausible since not even the entire BnC community is all male. But saying "History proves only men are fighters" does have a biased overtone to it. Granted, that is what history shows but considering how little of our history we actually know(which is saying something) there might be something out there. For everyone one woman we know who is famous for fighting, how many went unnoticed?