Why are there no female primarchs?

[Greyall]

I know and agree, don't take me wrong, it's just that Space Marines really are reminiscent of those times as a kid when you picked up a wooden/plastic sword, called yourself Sir Testosteros Bulge, the Manly, and went to kill some dragon/alien/ogre-with-school bully's name until it was dinner time, upon which Lord Bulge would supper.

 

It's not sexist, male and female-only groups, teams, etc. (don't know if military units can still be gender-specific) do exist and are a natural part of our lives. Besides, there's an all-girls faction as well. I don't mean this in a "they have a place for them", just that there's also the opposite restriction. It's common for military orders, at least the older ones, it doesn't make it wrong.

[Kol Saresk]

I know. Didn't mean to come across that way. Although, Ialways wanted to be the dragon. Go Glaurung!

[Demus Ragnok]

It's simple. The big E knew what my mother learned raising three kids. And I quote" Boys are so much easier to raise than girls!" :)

[Greyall]

Well, not to naysay your mother, Demus, but look at how that turned out for Empy.

[Kol Saresk]

Boys will be boys.

[Dosjetka]

Very interesting and fun topic. Nothing to add myself, but I'll probably enjoy reading whatever you chaps have to add.

[Marshal Rohr]

I've always wondered what would happen if you take males and females and raise them to be fighters from birth. I wonder if the distinction would even be possible then.

[Dosjetka]

I've always wondered what would happen if you take males and females and raise them to be fighters from birth. I wonder if the distinction would even be possible then.

 

I would tend to think no. At least, I think that they would both have the potential to be effective fighters, though I'm guessing that fighting styles and whatnot would differ between the two.

[Kol Saresk]

Maybe. Maybe not. Stereotypically, men should be brute force fighters while women are something akin to martial artists, fluid and graceful. But then you wind up with Jet Li and the big chick from Boondock Saints. I'm not sure an accurate expectation could be applied in a true neutral upbringing.

[Marshal Rohr]

Society molds girls to be less inclined to find violent pursuits appealing. I'd like to see that changed so we can put men vs women's fighting ability to rest.

[Legatus]

 

But saying "History proves only men are fighters" does have a biased overtone to it.

History and biology inform what people expect or want to see from a "knightly" faction. And it would influence a creator's choice of gender for his genetically engineered army of super warriors. It is a perfectly reasonable explanation both in-universe (why the Emperor might have decided to make the Space Marines all male) and out-universe (why GW decided to design them to be all male). And I don't see why that explanation would seem puzzling or inappropriate. 

[Greyall]

Society molds girls to be less inclined to find violent pursuits appealing. I'd like to see that changed so we can put men vs women's fighting ability to rest.

 

Man, we'd lose so much more than what we'd win. Especially because it's really subjective. It's not really about being a man or a woman, if you're talking about duels it's about technique and brains. Actually, it's about brains in more than one sense. Usually, going into 'Urge to kill - rising' mode is helpful in a fight (I don't mean it in a berserker kind of way, but in a determinator one. But I guess if both were trained to be killers then a man's more 'hunt-wired' brain wouldn't give him an advantage then.

 

That "lesser inclination" for violent pursuit is all kinds of ironic when I remember how my female co-workers got along with each other and solved their working problems, but of course I won't generalize that.

[Marshal Rohr]

Brienne of Tarth is the only truly honorable character in GoT, yet she gets :cuss on for it. That's the problem with gender roles in society even today.

[Kol Saresk]

 

Society molds girls to be less inclined to find violent pursuits appealing. I'd like to see that changed so we can put men vs women's fighting ability to rest.

 

Man, we'd lose so much more than what we'd win. Especially because it's really subjective. It's not really about being a man or a woman, if you're talking about duels it's about technique and brains. Actually, it's about brains in more than one sense. Usually, going into 'Urge to kill - rising' mode is helpful in a fight (I don't mean it in a berserker kind of way, but in a determinator one. But I guess if both were trained to be killers then a man's more 'hunt-wired' brain wouldn't give him an advantage then.

 

That "lesser inclination" for violent pursuit is all kinds of ironic when I remember how my female co-workers got along with each other and solved their working problems, but of course I won't generalize that.

And when you put things like athletic women typically being more agile combined with their natural physiology to put up with pain we can only dream of after we pass a kidney stone. We're dead.

[Týr]

I've always wondered what would happen if you take males and females and raise them to be fighters from birth. I wonder if the distinction would even be possible then.

Well from nature men are physical stronger than women.

If a man and a woman follow the same training program, eat the same, sleep the same amount and so on. By the end the man will have an 20 % advantage over the woman in term of his strength and endurance.

[Marshal Rohr]

My gf was in labor for three days and didn't scream once. I was a little scared. I can only imagine something as small as a bullet wound. She'd probably ignore it like a Kodiak and stab them in the face or something.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

I've always wondered what would happen if you take males and females and raise them to be fighters from birth. I wonder if the distinction would even be possible then.

Well from nature men are physical stronger than women.

If a man and a woman follow the same training program, eat the same, sleep the same amount and so on. By the end the man will have an 20 % advantage over the woman in term of his strength and endurance.

But in a fight does the stronger always win. Again back to my personal experience. I had size, reach, and the same level of training, but still lost the fight. Granted I was taken aback by having being chosen to go against a woman, but I certainly wasn't holding back. She just kicked my :cuss fair and simple.

[Kol Saresk]

 

I've always wondered what would happen if you take males and females and raise them to be fighters from birth. I wonder if the distinction would even be possible then.

Well from nature men are physical stronger than women.

If a man and a woman follow the same training program, eat the same, sleep the same amount and so on. By the end the man will have an 20 % advantage over the woman in term of his strength and endurance.

Except there is more to a fight than sheer muscle mass. So what you can punch a hole in the wall? It's no good if the girl moves faster than your fist and knows how to hit nerve clusters. Or if she's like Brienne of Tarth and is strong enough to throw the Rock around like he was a teddy bear.

[Veteran Sergeant]

I've always wondered what would happen if you take males and females and raise them to be fighters from birth. I wonder if the distinction would even be possible then.

Everything else equal, the males are still liable to end up larger and stronger, with a ton of advantages and no real disadvantages. The averages work more in the favor of men. Not that there can't be large, strong women, or small, weak men. 

 

 

Although I find it interesting that men are the "more aggressive gender" yet is women who get the saying "Hell hath no fury".

 

Remember though, what the second half of that saying is. "Like a woman scorned." (the original quote actually being: "Heav'n has no Rage, like Love to Hatred turn'd, Nor Hell a Fury, like a Woman scorn'd." from Congreve's The Mourning Bride) Which leaves the part where if you treat them okay and pay at least a little attention to them, they'll be quiet and do what they are supposed to. That saying actually has very little to do with aggression. More about irrational response to rejection.

[Marshal Rohr]

Vet Sgt, I'm not saying women would suddenly start carrying 240s or out rucking Ranger Instructors, just that all those arguments about their mental abilities would stop.

[Týr]

I've always wondered what would happen if you take males and females and raise them to be fighters from birth. I wonder if the distinction would even be possible then.

Well from nature men are physical stronger than women.

If a man and a woman follow the same training program, eat the same, sleep the same amount and so on. By the end the man will have an 20 % advantage over the woman in term of his strength and endurance.

But in a fight does the stronger always win. Again back to my personal experience. I had size, reach, and the same level of training, but still lost the fight. Granted I was taken aback by having being chosen to go against a woman, but I certainly wasn't holding back. She just kicked my fair and simple.

Well a fight is a very different thing indeed.

I was only thinking in terms of physical training like long distance running and such

[Marshal Rohr]

Even in all male units you've got slow runners, fast runners, smokers with 5:30 miles, health nuts who can barely make height weight.

[Veteran Sergeant]

My gf was in labor for three days and didn't scream once. I was a little scared. I can only imagine something as small as a bullet wound. She'd probably ignore it like a Kodiak and stab them in the face or something.

Cornered animal instinct, not fight or flight instinct. Labor pains are inevitable, and cannot be escaped from. Thus, the reaction is either to endure them, or get the epidural. Plus, there is also the mothering instincts too. It's a very complicated physiological/psychological cocktail that is being mixed during childbirth, and it ends up being fairly unrelated to combat stress reactions, except perhaps in situations where their child might be threatened. But ultimately, we're talking about entirely different triggers and motivations being played upon.

 

Again though, I'm not saying there are no women who can fight. I enjoy watching Ronda Rousey break other womens' arms in MMA. She's definitely one of those exceptions. However, back to the previous post I made, she fights at 135 pounds. The largest divisions for men's fighting are at 155 and 170 (and most of those guys are significantly heavier than that before the weight cut), and they go up to 265 (or more for less competitive, more "spectacle" type bouts). The heaviest female fighting division right now is 145. Ultimately, female physiology just didn't evolve for physical pursuits like combat, which is so much more complicated than just throwing punches at weak spots, or aiming and pulling a trigger. Those things are important, however soldiering is much more about carrying heavy stuff for a long time, and being able to continue to function while doing so. Yes, even in an era with trucks and helicopters. Trust me. I have two bad knees to show for it, heh.

[jeremy1391]

Science and evolution and the history of the species has shown men are more inclined to be hunters and warriors than women, not sexist but fact.

 

Can a woman be a warrior in a non fictional sense (Brienne of tarth, amazons, etc etc) yes they can (Joan of arc, Molly pitcher etc etc) but by and large women don't produce as much testosterone as men so they tend to be less aggressive.

 

Men work out to show "I'm the alpha male fear me grrrrr"

Many women work out not only to have a positive self image but to be generally healthier as opposed to pure vanity.

 

However in the 40k setting I think Leman Russ could have been an awesome character as a female "the she wolf" "the Valkyrie" that would be awesome! Fenrisian women are just as vicious as the men!

[Veteran Sergeant]

I don't know why I get involved in these discussions, lol. Fight/combat pyschology has always been an interest of mine and I've read a fair amount of the subject. But these discussions rarely stay civilized and scientific, especially on 40K forums. I appreciate every who has responded respectfully so far, but I'm going to bow out of this thread just in case, heh.