Why are there no female primarchs?

[Knight of the Raven]

I've always considered primarchs and space marines to be asexual war machines that happen to look male, much like orks, so I never asked myself this question. If they had been female, they still would have ended up as asexual war machines... that admittedly might have looked a little less male.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Tentacle beat by Chaos is a lot harder when you have only one hole instead of two.

[depthcharge12]

It begs the question if primarchs are able to beget children.

 

I would say no and they arent inclined to do so, but then again the Emperor is supposed to have had children in the form of the sensei.

 

So could the primarchs have children and what would they turn out as?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

And when sizing up an opponent, M2C -- trying to determine their ass-kicking abilities -- do you not enter their physical size and apparent muscle mass into your calculations?

[lokkorex]

Depthcharge: the girl I was talking about is a career-soldier in the Swedish army.

 

a friend of mine who is a complete nut when it comes to stuff that go BANG, military things and the United States of America(I wouldn't be surprised if he bleeds red, white and blue) showed me her on the internet this spring. if you want I could try to track it down.

 

and i'm not sure how the men/women ratio are in the armies of the world today, I think Israel have the most, but then it also have to do with how countries recruit, their political situation and the culture of the country.

[depthcharge12]

Depthcharge: the girl I was talking about is a career-soldier in the Swedish army.

a friend of mine who is a complete nut when it comes to stuff that go BANG, military things and the United States of America(I wouldn't be surprised if he bleeds red, white and blue) showed me her on the internet this spring. if you want I could try to track it down.

and i'm not sure how the men/women ratio are in the armies of the world today, I think Israel have the most, but then it also have to do with how countries recruit, their political situation and the culture of the country.

I think we're coming to a closer a consensus here something we can agree on without too much rage that frequents forums that would make a templar blush :D

I can definitely agree that there are bad@$$ women out there in the military...usmc women scare me all the time, but generally as a whole men are indicated as the fighters and are better suited to it.

Now nature vs. nurture...if women are brought up in a militaristic lifestyle (sparta, israel, adepta sororitas) then they can probably compete with and exceede men in certain fields of warfare undoubtedly

but now the money winning point I think the OP is getting at is the utility and ability of a female legion. Which could work, but would be a misallocation of valauble resources ie bangin out more manpower for the warmachine and legions.

Another big reason is to look at motivation. The marine legions look for motivated boys to join them...war appeals to them, unlike the majority of women (except those you piss off by sleeping with their sister hahaha). So finding motivated women is a whole nother ballgame.

I like the spartan 2s 3s and 4s of halo and while reading the fluff, the only girls that are taken (grossly in favor of male warriors) are the most motivated and alpha istic, like the swedish girl you mentioned or like an israeli tank girl I saw on the military channel...but they are few and far between.

And regarding finding this girl...it might not be good for me...hot blonde pale women with machine guns gets me going

[Kol Saresk]

depthcharge12, on 14 Aug 2013 - 19:03, said:

 

 

 

Res Ipsa Loquitur, on 14 Aug 2013 - 18:45, said:

Why on Earth would muscle-mass matter in a future where everyone carries a gun? Why on Earth would muscle-mass matter in a future where everyone carries a gun and genetically-modified humans are a thing?

 

You can make the argument that males are better suited to hand-to-hand combat because we're generally bigger and stronger than females, but not that being stronger makes them better in combat in general. After all, there's more to even hand-to-hand combat than brute strength and being male gives no inherent advantage in any of it.

 

It doesn't matter how much you can bench-press if I'm thirty feet away and have, say, a bolter in my hands.

 

Uh dude you almost answered your own question.

 

Do you have the strength to hold a bolter? Fluff indicates that humans who hold BOLT PISTOLS need two hands to hold it up and brace it or it would break their wrist.

 

Plus the whole carrying your gear thing mentioned by our resident military members.

 

Oh and i would definitely take the muscle mass and strength to wear and use effectively power armor to run you over while you point your flashlight lasgun at me to little avail.

 

Just saying, not every gun in 40K is a bolt pistol. The right lasgun on full charge can blow out the helmet on an Iron Warrior. And his head away with it. Heck, there was one Space Marine who got killed by a blow pipe! Well, it was closer to thirty but the point still stands. A .22 is still as dangerous as a .50 cal. Don't get me wrong, I still like to be able to shoot them with something I know will knock them off their feet, but that's not the point.

 

Wade, I get that sarcasm is fun and all, but do not blow my quotes out of proportion. If history says there is only a handful of women in combat, but archaeology is digging up bones of warrior that are at least two thousand years old and they are digging up a lot more than a handful, then I am right to infer that history is biased. Especially since that is a claim easily proved.

 

EDIT: Depthcharge, I would love to meet the SPARTAN II Kelly. Just saying.

[depthcharge12]

 

depthcharge12, on 14 Aug 2013 - 19:03, said:

 

 

Res Ipsa Loquitur, on 14 Aug 2013 - 18:45, said:

Why on Earth would muscle-mass matter in a future where everyone carries a gun? Why on Earth would muscle-mass matter in a future where everyone carries a gun and genetically-modified humans are a thing?

 

You can make the argument that males are better suited to hand-to-hand combat because we're generally bigger and stronger than females, but not that being stronger makes them better in combat in general. After all, there's more to even hand-to-hand combat than brute strength and being male gives no inherent advantage in any of it.

 

It doesn't matter how much you can bench-press if I'm thirty feet away and have, say, a bolter in my hands.

 

Uh dude you almost answered your own question.

 

Do you have the strength to hold a bolter? Fluff indicates that humans who hold BOLT PISTOLS need two hands to hold it up and brace it or it would break their wrist.

 

Plus the whole carrying your gear thing mentioned by our resident military members.

 

Oh and i would definitely take the muscle mass and strength to wear and use effectively power armor to run you over while you point your flashlight lasgun at me to little avail.

 

Just saying, not every gun in 40K is a bolt pistol. The right lasgun on full charge can blow out the helmet on an Iron Warrior. And his head away with it. Heck, there was one Space Marine who got killed by a blow pipe! Well, it was closer to thirty but the point still stands. A .22 is still as dangerous as a .50 cal. Don't get me wrong, I still like to be able to shoot them with something I know will knock them off their feet, but that's not the point.

 

Wade, I get that sarcasm is fun and all, but do not blow my quotes out of proportion. If history says there is only a handful of women in combat, but archaeology is digging up bones of warrior that are at least two thousand years old and they are digging up a lot more than a handful, then I am right to infer that history is biased. Especially since that is a claim easily proved.

 

EDIT: Depthcharge, I would love to meet the SPARTAN II Kelly. Just saying.

 

 

Yeah she nice but who really tickles my pickle is Linda.

 

Silent super sniper red head...mmmhm you know what they say about the quiet ones ;)

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, I think that's why people got jumpy when I talked about guns...... Or maybe it was the fact that I talked at all....... Or that when I did talk, it was about guns and motorcycles.......... Oh wait, you were talking about that. Umm. Moving on.

[depthcharge12]

Kol if I didnt know better I would think that you would be one of the Dixon brothers of Walking dead fame :)

 

all this talk of motorcycles, and guns, and picking a legion of thugs, and living in the south.....hmmmm

[Kol Saresk]

Nah, I'm Florida. Just ask anyone South of the Dixie line. We're the most Yankee Southern state after Kentucky.

[Bryan Blaire]

Seriously? None of the biological issues, etc, have anything to do with the concept "Why are there no female Primarchs?" Don't get me wrong, as student of genetics, there's probably a lot you could actually explore there, however, it really doesn't have anything to do with why there aren't female Primarchs, because some of the genetic concepts weren't even around (or were being studied in their infancy) when the concept of the Primarchs themselves came up.

 

Frankly, there are no female Primarchs because the authors didn't write any, and with a 20 year-ish history, I sincerely doubt that the BL authors are actually allowed to change that (by fan pressure or the weight of time). The thought of female Primarchs probably never crossed the setting authors' minds at the time, or if they did, it was an idea discarded as not adding anything to a male dominated section of society.

 

Could there have been, sure. Doesn't matter, there aren't. Right, wrong, value judgments using current values vs. values present during the conception, none of that means a fig. They weren't written.

 

Now, I'd really like to see some of the proto-Astartes modifications added to some women in 40K, that would probably be a real sight to see (read). :D

[Wade Garrett]

Wade, I get that sarcasm is fun and all, but do not blow my quotes out of proportion. If history says there is only a handful of women in combat, but archaeology is digging up bones of warrior that are at least two thousand years old and they are digging up a lot more than a handful, then I am right to infer that history is biased. Especially since that is a claim easily proved.

 

Well then, have you got some links, titles of books, etc. where these gentlemen are digging up all these warrior women bones? Don't tell me it's easily proved, show me.

 

Unless...the Moon Gerbils! They got to you, didn't they?

THEY'RE IN THE HOUSE! I GOTTA BUG OUT! GO GARRETT GO GO GO!

 

WOLVERINES!

[Demus Ragnok]

Frankly, there are no female Primarchs because the authors didn't write any, and with a 20 year-ish history, I sincerely doubt that the BL authors are actually allowed to change that (by fan pressure or the weight of time). The thought of female Primarchs probably never crossed the setting authors' minds at the time, or if they did, it was an idea discarded as not adding anything to a male dominated section of society.

 

Bryan speaks truth.

 

Oh and Wade step away from the Kool Aid.

[Kol Saresk]

 

Wade, I get that sarcasm is fun and all, but do not blow my quotes out of proportion. If history says there is only a handful of women in combat, but archaeology is digging up bones of warrior that are at least two thousand years old and they are digging up a lot more than a handful, then I am right to infer that history is biased. Especially since that is a claim easily proved.

Well then, have you got some links, titles of books, etc. where these gentlemen are digging up all these warrior women bones? Don't tell me it's easily proved, show me.

Unless...the Moon Gerbils! They got to you, didn't they?

THEY'RE IN THE HOUSE! I GOTTA BUG OUT! GO GARRETT GO GO GO!

WOLVERINES!

 

Davis-Kimball J (1997). Warrior women of Eurasia. Archaeology v50 #1 

 

Anthony, David W.(2007). The Horse, the Wheel and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders From the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the World

 

Woman-warrior Found in Iranian Tomb, a MSNBC news report from December 2004.

 

Woman of Distinction, Nusaybah Bint ka'ab: The Woman Warrior of Islam

 

Ebrey, Patricia(2006). The Cambridge Illustrated History of China.

 

Herodotus' Histories

 

Salmonson, Jessica Amanda(1991).  The Encyclopedia of Amazons. Specifically referring to Spartan female warriors.

 

Queen Boudicca

 

The fact that Septimus Severus banned female Gladiatrices speaks for itself about their existence.

 

The Amazons

 

Social Text Collective (Auth.); McClintock A, Mufti A, & Shohat E (Eds.) (1997). Dangerous liaisons: Gender, nation, and postcolonial perspectives. Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press.

 

David, Saul (2003), The Indian Mutiny: 1857, Penguin, London p367

Specifically refers to Rani Lakshmibai

 

Would you like more? If you want, after I get some money I can devote serious time to it and do extensive research into the subject.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Agreed, Bryan has nailed this one.

 

However, it is notable that female warrior characters are becoming more common, such as the Fenrisian inquisitor in 'Emperor's Gift', the kaerl junior commander in 'Battle of the Fang', the navigator in ADB's Night Lords series etc. So whilst GW aren't going to try and unpick twenty five years of fluff, they seemingly appreciate that the world has moved on and there are increasing numbers of female wargamers, modellers and sci fi fans.

 

For those of us that live in the Nordic belt, the idea of female warriors requires no great leap of faith. Hell, the Vikings probably headed off to escape some of the scarier women ;-)

[lokkorex]

Depthcharge: she was a brunette, and carried a rifle, but I think we understand each other now.

[Wade Garrett]

@Kol

 

My last post may have come off as more asinine than I intended, since I was trying to combine a legitimate request for sources with a somewhat overdramatized warning to the Bolter about the Moon Gerbils (they killed President Mckinley, you know.).

[DarthMarko]

We have Fulgrim...Also nobody mentioned Lotara I presume...??? She was more than a primarch.....:-)

[Kais Klip]

Mr Wraight, don't be shy, stop lurking and say hi :3

Scars III, Malcador making a remark on the primarch's rivalry when Dorn mentions whether the Lion was ever but his own master;

"Your brothers - such a nest of rivalries. I warned him to make you sisters, that it would make things more civilized. He thought I was joking. I wasn't."

That answers the whole question for me, since I too would think Malcador was joking

[Kol Saresk]

lol, that is awesome

[No Foes Remain]

I always thought Malcador was awesome, and I was right.

[jeremy1391]

Malcador is awesome lol

[Wade Garrett]

Malcador is awesome?

 

Malcador never had any daughters, you mean.

 

If I may be so bold as to quote Sir Terry Pratchett:

 

"Death decided to adopt a daughter because he thought a girl child would be less willfull and easier to raise. Which just goes to show that even an immortal anthromorphic personification can be howlingly mistaken every once in a while."

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Malcador forgot that instead of the Lion suckerpunching Russ, we would've had the Lioness scratching the bloody lights out of the Wolfette.