Why are there no female primarchs?

[Greyall]

Sexism in the sense that (s)he is never expected to do any "real" fighting as it is seen by the others. Perturabo knows what he does is important but the others just see him as weak and second class, much like women have been treated throughout history.

 

That's the thing that's been missed from the beginning of this thread. The Imperium is NOT mysoginistic, the Emperor created sons...because...there's nothing against women, they're employed throughout the Imperium, even during the narrow-minded 40k incarnation. That's the one thing that makes such a lousy era "better" than ours - I used quotations marks because, in theory, I prefer to spare women the tragedy of war, if they so wish to.

 

Don't do that, don't "send" the Perturabos or the Fulgrims to the sex-changing cabinet. Any woman could be a Vulkan, a Guilliman or a Dorn (actually, most women I've known professionaly resemble the last two the most - also the Lion, competent but a bad team player).

 

Upbringing might not make every person, but it makes any person. 40k's fluff shows us that, regardless of gender.

[Teetengee]

My comment on Fulgrim was mainly due to the thought that Slaanesh could  actually change someone's gender that's all.

As for 40k not being a sexist universe, I think the mere fact that we are having this conversation might be evidence to the contrary. But more to the point, I was arguing that if any Primarch's were women, but not half or near half of them, then that would reflect on a sexist emperor/imperium. In that case I was just looking through the Primarch's to see which might have been stigmatized for being the proverbial other, and Perturabo jumped out. However, I totally agree that any f the primarch's could have been female, I know I have met at least one(understatement of the year award) female Dorn personality.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually the conversation is a result of us, not the universe. Otherwise there would not be Sisters of Battle, all-female Imperial Guard regiments, female Commissars, female Inquisitors, and so on, so forth.

[Conn Eremon]

It's a bit hard to say that 40k is or is not sexist. Or racist or any other -ist. The Imperium is a collection of a million unique worlds with many, many thousands of years of history and personality. There are sexist worlds, there are worlds of equality there are worlds that don't even notice and there are some where gender is little more than "that thing I used to be when I was more flesh." The Imperium simply is.

[Teetengee]

Actually the conversation is a result of us, not the universe. Otherwise there would not be Sisters of Battle, all-female Imperial Guard regiments, female Commissars, female Inquisitors, and so on, so forth.

 I hadn't known about the all-female guard regiments, that makes me feel a lot better about the world actually, that the Imperium does use women for regulars alongside(ish) men.

 

 

It's a bit hard to say that 40k is or is not sexist. Or racist or any other -ist. The Imperium is a collection of a million unique worlds with many, many thousands of years of history and personality. There are sexist worlds, there are worlds of equality there are worlds that don't even notice and there are some where gender is little more than "that thing I used to be when I was more flesh." The Imperium simply is.

Fair.

[Kol Saresk]

Yep. IIRC, it was one of a few all-female regiments from Valhalla, I think the planet was. But due to severe losses, it and another regiment that also suffered severe losses were grouped together, forming a mixed regiment, much like the Tanith First-and-Only.

[Wade Garrett]

Sexism in the sense that (s)he is never expected to do any "real" fighting as it is seen by the others. Perturabo knows what he does is important but the others just see him as weak and second class, much like women have been treated throughout history.

You don't know very much about besieging and trench warfare, do you?

[Blacksad]

@Blacksad: The "you heretic" part is ironic, since you spoke like a true Slaaneshi follower.

or like a true boob-loving innocent little boy.

[Teetengee]

 

Sexism in the sense that (s)he is never expected to do any "real" fighting as it is seen by the others. Perturabo knows what he does is important but the others just see him as weak and second class, much like women have been treated throughout history.

You don't know very much about besieging and trench warfare, do you?

 See highlighted text. I just meant that it is a duty no one else wants and they all denigrate. I am a huge IW fan and I know siege warfare is both brutal and quite real.

[Entei]

Anyone of the primarchs could have been female. They are not sexual. Therefore the only difference would be appearance and possibly(!) a minor differance in physical strength, and that is if the Emperor hadn't made her stronger to compensate. 

 

Sexism in the sense that (s)he is never expected to do any "real" fighting as it is seen by the others. Perturabo knows what he does is important but the others just see him as weak and second class, much like women have been treated throughout history.

Reducing a female character to be a victim because of her sex is just retrogressive, not to say stereotypical and boring.

 

Edit: I read it again and it wasn't so bad as I thought, but still, choosing the only character who is mocked because of his/her lack of strength/merits to be the female is still retrogressive, stereotypical and boring. That's one of the things that's great about the movie Aliens, f'rex.

[Teetengee]

I'm not saying what I want the 40k world to look like, I am saying what seems most consistent with the themes of the world. Moreso than any monster, or alien, or warp terror, our society's real failings magnified a thousand fold are what make the 40k universe so bleak and horrifying. Totalitarian societies often have very strict and backwards heirarchy. Throughout history women are marginalized and stereotyped. That this terrible regime in the 41st millenium could be any better seems unlikely, especially since their treatment of other races (the abhumans) is very consisteknt with historical precedence. The game universe we have in front of us has always seemed to me to be the worst parts of humanity magnified, if GW were to change (NOT to say GW could have made different decisions in the beginning, that they probably should have) their precedent it would only serve to highlight the sexism of the past. So they would possibly have to make the sexism obvious and thus a part of the setting and not a part of their real life world view (by the Perturabo example for instance).

[Entei]

I see your point, but a big problem with sexism in reality is that women have, very often, been victims because of their sex/sexuality in fiction. They often have to prove that they are on the same level as the men. While that may be realistic, fiction is not supposed to reflect reality all the time to hundred percent. Especially not sci-fi. I think fiction should reflect the interesting themes in reality, while adding some cool surrealistic/unrealistic premises. If all the strong female characters you read about are strong because they had to prove themselves/overcome an abused childhood, you subconsciously start to think that women can only be strong because they are victims. Usually this means that you will feel pity for said character. Feeling pity is basically the same thing as looking down at someone and saying "Poor you...".  Fiction influences our perception of real women. A woman shouldn't have to prove herself because she is a woman. I know that that's not the case in reality, but that's why we have fiction. Take Lotara Sarrin in Betrayer. The legionnaires that disrespect her doesn't do that because she is a woman, but because she is a human. And I don't think that sexism should be removed from fiction, it's sometimes good to have a sexistic-*sshole antagonist who is proven wrong, but if the lone female primarch is a subject of sexism from her brothers, it's not doing anyone any good, just reinforcing retrogressive stereotypes. In my opinion.

[Wade Garrett]

I wouldn't say Perturabo is one of the mocked and denigrated Primarchs. Pigeonholed as "the siege guy", yes, but given that Fulgrim sought his aid in designing fortresses and Guilliman included his doctrines in the Codex Astartes he seems to be at least recognized as a genius in that area.

 

Compared to Lorgar, with his warbling on about faith and religion as his legion sits on their duffs conquering nothing, Angron, whose grasp of tactics begins and ends with "CHARGE! ¥%§£ attrition rates!", or Curze, who can't even control the scum and villains comprising his armies, Perturabo is fairly respected.

[Teetengee]

I see your point, but a big problem with sexism in reality is that women have, very often, been victims because of their sex/sexuality in fiction. They often have to prove that they are on the same level as the men. While that may be realistic, fiction is not supposed to reflect reality all the time to hundred percent. Especially not sci-fi. I think fiction should reflect the interesting themes in reality, while adding some cool surrealistic/unrealistic premises. If all the strong female characters you read about are strong because they had to prove themselves/overcome an abused childhood, you subconsciously start to think that women can only be strong because they are victims. Usually this means that you will feel pity for said character. Feeling pity is basically the same thing as looking down at someone and saying "Poor you...".  Fiction influences our perception of real women. A woman shouldn't have to prove herself because she is a woman. I know that that's not the case in reality, but that's why we have fiction. Take Lotara Sarrin in Betrayer. The legionnaires that disrespect her doesn't do that because she is a woman, but because she is a human. And I don't think that sexism should be removed from fiction, it's sometimes good to have a sexistic-*sshole antagonist who is proven wrong, but if the lone female primarch is a subject of sexism from her brothers, it's not doing anyone any good, just reinforcing retrogressive stereotypes. In my opinion.

Ok makes sense. (Wait this is the internet, am I allowed to change my mind or alter my opinions?)

 

EDIT: Spelling

[Karthak]

On a serious note, a female Primarch...

 

It's hard to see savagery and conquest. I know there are prominent figures in history, but it's more diplomatic. Zealotry is covered by the Sisters.

 

I'm not trying to offend, but for me to imagine women in times of war makes me think of murder, very Assassinorun-like. Prowess in battle, no. But as a symbol, yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahomey_Amazons

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/dahomey.html

 

All women. Most definitely into savagery and conquest.

[Snider]

"The Primarchs were the twenty genetically-engineered "sons" of the Emperor. The Emperor used his own DNA in their creation, and they were designed to be far superior to the average human: immensely larger, stronger, hardier, faster, and more intelligent. They were also incredibly charismatic, as their main role was to be generals and leaders of the Imperial military."

Because he cloned himself.
 

[Kol Saresk]

Not necessarily. Heathens' DNA was used in the creation of all of his kids, but they aren't clones. Whose to say that twenty (un)lucky females were chosen to be egg donors for the Emperor's DNA and then the Primarchs were put together in test tubes were the Emperor could play with every little bit of their genetic development?

[Pyroriffic]

Maybe we can get Sarah Cawkwell to do some pro-female stories. I rather liked Valkia the Bloody. Even if she did kill every man she looked at.

 

To be fair, she killed every woman she looked at as well.

[lokkorex]

think i need to get Valkia and read it then...

[Vincent val Munshin]

I think the reason that there were no female primarchs has a pretty simple in universe explanation: why bother? He was cloning himself, or at least using himself as a genetic template. Is there a reason to make extra work just to make a few of them women? He already has the 20 most powerful beings to ever exist, behind him. 20 unique perspectives, 20 unique skill sets, 20 brilliant minds. I think the Emperor didn't make any of them women more or less entirely because he had no reason to make any of them women. 

 

As for why the authors made no female primarchs, who knows?

[Greyall]

They explain, they're a bit scared of eventual backlash and accusations of machismo or misogyny, so the safe route it is.

[Magic Dragon]

No intention of being sexist here.

 

At a biological level the female body has many features that are there primarily for the purpose of childbirth/rearing. The male body while not perfect in itself isn't quite so focused on a single purpose and is a bit more multi functional. This kind of begs the question... why would the emperor bother with a female primarch if male ones would physically do the job more than sufficiently?

 

This of course ignores completely the psychological benefits that creating a female primarch could potentially bring and totally ignores how badass said female primarch could be :P

[lokkorex]

Magic Dragon: except do we know if the primarchs can even have children?

 

and if the emperor could make the primarchs into the super-humans they are, he sure as hell could make them women if he wanted, almost as strong, equally strong, or maybe stronger than the "canon" universe primarchs.

 

when you make three metre tall, acid-spitting avatars of war that reproduce surgically, it doesn't really matter what you put between their legs.

 

the only difference i can imagine would be psychological, maybe a female primarch would be a bit more cool-headed than her brother-primarch.

[GhostMalone]

He didn't want brother and sister getting it on and making more primarchs imagine if you will 4chans primarch high thing pretty self explanatory

[lokkorex]

my point is, if the emperor wanted female primarchs, he would've created them female.

 

but geedub took the cowards/safe route and made them all male, and in my opinion, the 40k world is lesser because of that decision.