Why are there no female primarchs?

[Greyall]

It'd change nothing, Lokkorex. Primarchs aren't very human characters, all in all. While they seem to have complete personalities, each of them embodies a trait of the Emperor in a very, very strong way. To the point that they're severly crippled in some matters (depending on their main trait), from social skills to military strategy to administration or emotional management.

 

They're artificial, custom-made, and it shows. Replace males with females all you want, in the case of the Primarchs all you'd get would be an Heresy in skirts, all the characters would basically be the same.

 

I'm thinking some of the secondary male characters might make some remarks about the female Primarchs, but as has been pointed out, the Imperium is very much not sexist.

[Wade Garrett]

Primarchs aren't very human characters, all in all. While they seem to have complete personalities, each of them embodies a trait of the Emperor in a very, very strong way.

Sure they are. Kor Phaeron and Erebus said so, and if you can't trust the Destiny's Hand and the Black Cardinal, who can you trust?

 

And they didn't even stick to that theory while they were propounding it, with the whole "Guilliman? Oh, he's a complete copy of the Emperor. Guilliman. That guy you Illuminariumed in the chest. Just like the Emperor, Lorgar."

 

Also, Rune Priests draw their powers from nature spirits, the Emperor told Curze to massacre planetary populations in the most horrific ways possible because he needed a terror weapon, and the lost Legions were absorbed into the Ultramarines.

[Greyall]

It makes sense to me, that theory. I explain why in the previous post, Wade. It has a basis, whoever first came up with it in the story.

[Pyroriffic]

Just to throw in a slightly different-eye view of the matter.

 

I'm female. I have no problem at all with the fact that there are no female primarchs. I don't require any explanation, because I'm happy accepting the Mad, Crazy World of Warhammer[tm] completely as it is. You know. Mad as a sack full of wet mice. The Emperor, I am told, had sons. No problem, says I, and on I go.

 

As a discussion point, I think it might have been interesting if there had been one or two females in the mix, simply for the fact that they might - and that's a pretty important word here, might - have had a slightly different perspective on certain things. But given the whole 'avatars of war/facets of the Emperor' thing, I reckon that the earlier comment (I'd quote you, but I'm too damned lazy to scroll up, so be paraphrased) that they'd just be the same guys, only in skirts is probably accurate.

 

Edited because I missed words out in my post-work lethargy.

[Greyall]

Wade has a point in that the two sources for said theory are the root of all the Heresy, and that it's easy to find similarly credible theories for the Primarchs being ordinary folks with superpowers.

 

Let me rephrase my 'not exactly human' statement above. Their personalities are credible for humans, I know people who're close to their types. But they (the personalities) all spin around a central axis with an area of mastery and another which is crippled and whose malfunction actually allows the first to work to its fullest potential. It's that pattern that makes the theory viable.

[Terrified Templar]

Maybe the Emperor wanted sons because he wanted to do the fun father and son stuff like going to baseball games and other such stuff. Of course after they were taken away he had to find new ways to bond with them and I guess nothing beats leading a legion of armoured super-soldiers, killing aliens and wielding awesome weapons that confound the mind. I can just picture the Emperor looking at Horus and saying "Son, someday I won't be here to kill aliens, destroy planets and all that fun stuff so that's why I'm making sure that when that day comes you'll be able to take on the family business of conquering the galaxy and killing everything that isn't human or doesn't comply to my demands."

 

If someone already said this let me know and I'll remove this post, I just didn't feel like plowing through eight pages right now.

[Pyroriffic]

Wade has a point in that the two sources for said theory are the root of all the Heresy, and that it's easy to find similarly credible theories for the Primarchs being ordinary folks with superpowers.

 

Let me rephrase my 'not exactly human' statement above. Their personalities are credible for humans, I know people who're close to their types. But they (the personalities) all spin around a central axis with an area of mastery and another which is crippled and whose malfunction actually allows the first to work to its fullest potential. It's that pattern that makes the theory viable.

 

The primarchs were raised among humans, or grew up around in other cases, such as Curze - and we know what he thought of the people he grew up amongst. Whilst they were undeniably physically different, there must (I feel) be an element of that which colours their perceptions and basic personality. Had the Emperor been able to mould/manipulate/shape them the way he may have wanted to, then they might well have become far more inhuman than they actually are.

[Greyall]

That's a very interesting point. The Emperor certainly didn't object to each Primarch - and their Legions - being used as Tetris pieces, solely at what they were best, which caused no shortage of problems.

 

Maybe the Big E's idea was indeed to tailor-make the kids so that they'd do only what they were best at with a smile on their faces.

 

That theory is made even more credible by the fact that the Emperor is incredibly bad at being human - mostly values and priorities. Whether that's justified by the looming Chaos threat is disputable.

[Andurin Marvak]

Well, after reading this, I have a few comments here and there.

First off, the prevailing idea of sexism in today's culture rather bothers me. This thread has once again brought it to light in an annoying fashion. It seems to run along these lines:

"HOW COULD YOU EVER SAY WOMEN AREN'T JUST AS GOOD AT DOING EVERY LAST THING A MAN CAN DO IF NOT BETTER WAAAAARGGGAAAARBBBBBBBLLLLL"

The problem with this is that we're trying to insist that fish are just as good as lizards at living on land, and lizards are just as good as fish at surviving underwater. Sure, sure, there are marine iguanas and monitor lizards who are quite suited to aquatic life (part of the time) and lungfish and mudskippers that are quite capable of holding their own on land.

Men and women were adapted (in a general sense) to do certain things. Culture has grown up around those adaptations. The basic nature of what homo sapiens is drives culture. Regardless of whether in certain cultures up to 20% of the military force was female, or had an all-female militia, the general pattern remains. Noting that this is true in no way says either gender is "better" than the other. Would you laugh at a pianist who can make you cry tears of joy with his work because he can't punch through a two-by-four with his bare fist? Then why would you think being a housewife or having a civilian career is demeaning for a woman?

The problem with this view of gender is that it too often overstates the nature of equality, thus destroying the concept completely. In other words, it ignores feminine genius and forces masculine genius to be the measuring stick for all human beings. It's every bit as sexist as denying women the vote. Men and women tend, in general, by design, to be better at certain things. So why not appreciate that uniqueness and diversity, and encourage it, even, especially since it's clearly complimentary?

As for the Primarchs themselves, something people have forgotten is the nature of how men, as a gender, tend to view women of authority that they respect. The key word there being respect, of course. Look at the Virgin Mary, for instance, or Queen Elizabeth, Judge Deborah (who by the way did not actually lead the army in a military capacity, she had a general to do it) etc. Men, especially men well-versed in ritual and heirarchy, even in a non-religious sense, will gladly rally to war for her, as any man would fight for his mother-figure. But placing something so precious to him near the enemy's sword/shuriken pistol/ungodly alien appendage would be unthinkable, and would compromise battle-strategy in the event of her appearance at the front.

That said, Lorgar or Guilliman staying at the army's rear and being a woman would actually work extremely well. The other primarchs....not so much.

This of course, does not cover every woman, but simply explains a possible risk involved with making some of the primarchs female.

[Pyroriffic]

Well, after reading this, I have a few comments here and there.

 

First off, the prevailing idea of sexism in today's culture rather bothers me.

 

The above sentence... can sort of be expanded to get the point across. In short, it's too easy to apply current, modern-day twenty-first century thinking to a sci-fi/sci-f setting. We all know of and (speaking as a woman) are pretty happy with the levels of equality across the Imperium as a whole. As I said before, I have no problem at all with there being a dearth of female primarchs. I'm almost entirely certain that the portrayal of such wouldn't be an easy task, either.

[Wade Garrett]

Boy, I'm posting grumpy today...

 

Anyhoo, the problem I have with the "aspects of the Emperor, pulled from a genetic primer" idea is that it reduces interesting characters to cardboard cut outs, and also...take Magnus.

 

He's described as the Emperor's psychic potential and eager mind, unrestricted by patience. But if we look at the Heresy, I think you could make a good case he's the Emperor's pride, since ego and hubris play so big a role in his character.

 

Or Curze. Is he justice without mercy? The Emperor's cynicism ("Power blooms from the barrel of a gun." "Life in its most natural state is brutish, nasty, and short".) Emperor's sadistic side? Emperor's self destructive impulses? All of those are arguable.

[lokkorex]

i hate that i find it so fricking hard for me to express myself to other people.

 

games workshop COULD have made some/half/all of the primarchs, but they didn't.

 

as was said earlier in this thread, unless im very mistaken, malcador wanted the big e to make the primarchs women, because malcador thought they would have been more level-headed, (?)

 

the more about 40k i learn and read, the more flaws i detect in the background (angron is named angron, because he's ANGRY, hint hint, nudge nudge)

 

or maybe this just upsets me because gw takes so much bloody time to give the sororitas the awesome codex and models they should have gotten two editions ago.

 

and if some/half/all of the primarchs were women, we would maybe have had female astartes today.

 

PS: i'm dead-tired, so if this doesn't make sense to anyone, please ignore until i can edit this again tomorrow.

[depthcharge12]

Just to throw in a slightly different-eye view of the matter.

I'm female. I have no problem at all with the fact that there are no female primarchs. I don't require any explanation, because I'm happy accepting the Mad, Crazy World of Warhammer[tm] completely as it is. You know. Mad as a sack full of wet mice. The Emperor, I am told, had sons. No problem, says I, and on I go.

As a discussion point, I think it might have been interesting if there had been one or two females in the mix, simply for the fact that they might - and that's a pretty important word here, might - have had a slightly different perspective on certain things. But given the whole 'avatars of war/facets of the Emperor' thing, I reckon that the earlier comment (I'd quote you, but I'm too damned lazy to scroll up, so be paraphrased) that they'd just be the same guys, only in skirts is probably accurate.

Edited because I missed words out in my post-work lethargy.

Which one of you schmucks let a woman on this forum?!

This is heresy!!! blasphemy! blarrrrrhg

Whats next? Non 40k gamers?

/end sarcasm/

[Conn Eremon]

Black Library authors get all the breaks,you know that.

[Wade Garrett]

Black Library authors get all the breaks,you know that.

 

Wait, what?

[DarthMarko]

I always thought that Fulgrim and Sanguinius were shemales....*ducks for cover*...

 

Kidding a little :-) Back on topic - can somebody get the quotes from God Emperor Leto II (*heretics of dune, me thinks*), and why he had all female bodyguards (fish speakers IIRC)...There is a quite philosopical approach on that...If memory serves me, theory was that  all male army will always turn on their own populace in the end, and something about homosexsual tendencies...:-)

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

Black Library authors get all the breaks,you know that.

Wait, what?

Pyroriffic is the username of Sarah Cawkwell, who has written a collection of Silver Skulls books and shorts. I have only read her Space Marine Battles book, The Gildar Rift, myself. She isn't in the big leagues of BL authors as far as quantity or diversity goes, but I would say she is in quality.

 

At least, unless my memory of the Silver Skulls thread is completely off and I am straight up making stuff up about her.

[Wade Garrett]

Pyroriffic is the username of Sarah Cawkwell, who has written a collection of Silver Skulls books and shorts. I have only read her Space Marine Battles book, The Gildar Rift, myself. She isn't in the big leagues of BL authors as far as quantity or diversity goes, but I would say she is in quality.

SQUUUEEEEEEEEE!

 

Er...I mean...something something MATURE not acting like a preteen girl confronted with Robert Pattinson something.

[depthcharge12]

 

Pyroriffic is the username of Sarah Cawkwell, who has written a collection of Silver Skulls books and shorts. I have only read her Space Marine Battles book, The Gildar Rift, myself. She isn't in the big leagues of BL authors as far as quantity or diversity goes, but I would say she is in quality.

SQUUUEEEEEEEEE!

 

Er...I mean...something something MATURE not acting like a preteen girl confronted with Robert Pattinson something.

 

ERHMERGHRWD ITS HER!!!!

 

i mean uh yeah how bout them silver skulls?

 

I would say Ms. Cawkwell and Karen Traviss are the only female writers of sci fi I dare to read since theirs is absolutely phenomenal. Ive just been burned by female authors before - Wuthering Heights *shudders*

[Conn Eremon]

Thankfully, our Cawkwell doesn't have the same controversy as Traviss does with the Star Wars fans. I remember the Mandalorian Wars, and I am not talking about the in-universe event of the same name.

[depthcharge12]

Thankfully, our Cawkwell doesn't have the same controversy as Traviss does with the Star Wars fans. I remember the Mandalorian Wars, and I am not talking about the in-universe event of the same name.

 

Ahh I was not aware. I had just read some of the commando books and some other stuff by her. I kinda stopped in the Star wars timeline after Admiral Thrawn kicked the bucket.

[Conn Eremon]

Admiral Thrawn was THE highlight of the Star Wars Extended Universe. But yeah, there were more people who absolutely hated Traviss and her Mandos than any other kind of Star Wars fan. Didn't help that she reacted poorly, getting involved in internet arguments and calling those who enjoy iconic elements of the universe like the Jedi and other good-natured Force users as naive and childish, among other uhh, more colorful insults. It got bad. Really bad. Which was a shame, because she had talent as an author and she gave a nice image to a big, unexplored aspect of the universe.

[Wade Garrett]

I would say Ms. Cawkwell and Karen Traviss are the only female writers of sci fi I dare to read since theirs is absolutely phenomenal. Ive just been burned by female authors before - Wuthering Heights *shudders*

I lost a lot of respect for Karen Traviss when I saw her blog post where she claimed, in all seriousness, that anyone who took umbrage with the way she wrote the Jedi and the Mandalorians was a Nazi.

 

Although part of my RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION may have been fueled by the part in the same post where she rambled on about how the contents of your bookshelf reveal much about you as a person, and then I glanced at mine and saw:

 

Soul Hunter

Lord of the Night

Storm of Iron

Blood Reaver

The First Heretic

A Thousand Sons

Fulgrim

The Dark Disciple Omnibus

Blood Gorgons

Void Stalker

Angel Exterminatus

Betrayer

Legion

Horus Rising

[depthcharge12]

 

I would say Ms. Cawkwell and Karen Traviss are the only female writers of sci fi I dare to read since theirs is absolutely phenomenal. Ive just been burned by female authors before - Wuthering Heights *shudders*

I lost a lot of respect for Karen Traviss when I saw her blog post where she claimed, in all seriousness, that anyone who took umbrage with the way she wrote the Jedi and the Mandalorians was a Nazi.

 

Although part of my RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION may have been fueled by the part in the same post where she rambled on about how the contents of your bookshelf reveal much about you as a person, and then I glanced at mine and saw:

 

Soul Hunter

Lord of the Night

Storm of Iron

Blood Reaver

The First Heretic

A Thousand Sons

Fulgrim

The Dark Disciple Omnibus

Blood Gorgons

Void Stalker

Angel Exterminatus

Betrayer

Legion

Horus Rising

 

Hmm

 

Ill take it you like the Ultramarines then? :D

 

jk

 

 

oh i do remember the mandos now, i never knew about the whole nazi thingy. I kinda liked some of the mandos and there were some strong female characters, and i liked the mando culture, but wow thats pretty far.

 

Poor Jango. Like Ferrus Manus, his amazingness was cut short by a guy with a sword. Never get aHEAD of yourself :P hahaha

[Pyroriffic]

Um, yeah. That's me. Sorry, I tend not to wade into these discussions and say stuff like DON'T YOU KNOW WHO I AM?

 

Back on topic... Here's another way of looking at it.

 

Space Marines, and by inference, primarchs as well, are heavily modified, genetically engineered walking slabs of muscle and sinew. Any female variant would be similarly weird physically and probably be about as unfeminine as it gets. This would negate some people's hopes for a creature who models primarch lingerie. Now, I say this not to be disparaging to the fellas, but let's be honest: women modelling badly designed armour are far more popular in fantasy/sci-fi than the ones who bulk up and actually stand a chance of surviving.

 

By that token, no female primarchs, please!