The "best" siege warfare specialists: IF vs IW

[High MarshalGR]

Ok, so the matter at hand is who you think is the best in the siege warfare and everything it includes. Our candidates for this debate are the Imperial Fists of Rogal Dorn and the Iron Warriors of Perturabo, two legions with the same specialization but with quite different methods and ideology, also not really friendly even before the Horus Heresy. So, feel free to share your opinion.

[Tenebris]

You want a fortress toppled than you call the Iron Warriors, you want a fortress defended, than you call the Imperial Fists.

[depthcharge12]

oooh this is going to get heated

Im throwing my lot in with the Iron Warriors for even they know that a siege will out last any fort...therefore they have back up plans!

[Emperor's Furor]

Both just as good, although when it came down to it I think the Imperial Fists shined more during the defence of the siege of the emperors palace than the Iron Warriors did as attackers.

[Dosjetka]

And yet the Fists could topple a fortress just as easily as the Iron Warriors and would go about in a much more imaginative way (ie. not ceaseless barrages for days on end. You've got the Imperial Army and their artillery to do that kind of work ;)).

 

As a strategic reserve force, the Legion rapidly deployed between battlefields, characteristically employing siege and defensive warfare as the situation required, specialising in each. As siege specialists, the Legion functioned as an assault formation, surgically applying force where and when it was required to shatter enemy defenses, often deciding the outcome of campaigns. As defensive specialists, the Legion was commonly tasked to defend strategic positions and defeat enemy breakthroughs. (From Lexicanum, original source being the Imperial Fist Index Astartes article)

 

So the Imperial Fists seem to be much more assault-orientated when it comes to siege warfare, whereas the Iron Warriors seem to be much more reliant on artillery (though they have also been shown as being particularly adept at close quarters warfare during sieges).

[Entei]

Clearly the Iron Warriors, they've got hazard stripes. You don't just walk over a hazard stripe. 

 

 

But on a serious note, to me it seems like a question of what would win, the unstoppable force or the immovable object? Someone who actually knows stuff about modern warfare might be able to compare their strenghts and weaknesses though.

[lokkorex]

iron warriors spent the great crusade waging siege-warfare without end, for every fortress they toppled, the other primarchs pointed at a new one that they were to lazy to deal with themselves.

 

year after year, decade after decade it went on, no rest, no respite except that afforded by space travel.

 

this is what made them into siege experts and the bitter, hateful astartes we know.

 

all of this, while the imperial fists sat rolling their thumbs placed in reserve, playing medieval knights with each other to pass the time, and having the best target-paint job in the galaxy, (bright yellow all over yourself?! the f*** is wrong with you Dorn?!!! ) getting praised by everyone and their mother, and filling the phalanx with battle-honours, while the iron warriors were busy surviving another trench, another minefield, another day, just so they can be sent to do exact same thing, until the galaxy is devoid of anything that can remotely look like a fortress.

[Spinsanity]

Clearly the Iron Warriors, they've got hazard stripes. You don't just walk over a hazard stripe.

lol, that one's a keeper, just sigged! :)

[Dosjetka]

The Iron Warriors' main flaw, in my mind, was that they completely lacked any sort of humanity. They were little more than mindless automatons. And it's easy to make us pity them, But remember that they were the ones who chose to do as they did. Never forget that ;)

 

On top of all that, the Imperial Fists rightly deserve their battle honours, since they were the ones that usually turned the outcome of battles into an Imperial victory. Without them, countless worlds either would not have been conquered or would have cost the lives of many more Astartes than they already had taken.

 

 

But on a serious note, to me it seems like a question of what would win, the unstoppable force or the immovable object? Someone who actually knows stuff about modern warfare might be able to compare their strenghts and weaknesses though.

 

Nice comparison that you've got there :)

[maverike_prime]

siege warfare is about patience. You surround your target, cut off their
lines of support and resupply and you pound it until it submits or is
destroyed. A properly executed siege can not be broken by the target's
standing forces. But at the same time it's extremely costly to the siege
army. You need to commit considerable resources to the siege and commit
to it for an extended period of time. Months perhaps even years
depending on the target.

 

Defense is an entirely different strategy.
Many people think putting a wall is defense. It's not, not by itself.
Any wall, no matter how well built, no matter how thick WILL be beaten
and broken by a sustained attack. So what do you do? You place offensive
assets to break the attack before it can break the wall. These may
include cannons to bombard the enemy as they attack, traps to delay the
enemies ability to advance, or even forward attack forces to disrupt the
enemies ability to attack you.

 

Both of these factors come into play with the legions in question. The siege of terra could not be under taken as a proper siege for a variety of reasons, not
the least of which being time. With other legions including the Ultramarines otherwise engaged, but on their way to Terra the Traitor
Legions could not under take a proper siege. Thus they opted for an over whelming fire power assault hoping to break through the defense quickly and land a decisive strike.

 

So citing the failure of the Siege of Terra as a mark against the Iron Warriors ability as siege specialists is rather unfounded and
mis-leading. It's like trying to say that Jeff Gordon is a bad driver because he accidentally backed a U-haul truck into the dock when he was
helping his friend move. Jeff Gordon is a Stock Car racer. He drives cars at 150+ miles per hour. It's not the same thing as driving a U-haul truck.

 

Same deal with asking if the Imperial Fists are good at Siege warfare because they were experts in defense. Defensive strategy as it applies to beating a siege is literally focused on either not getting in a siege in the first place, or in having forces that can attack the sieging force froum outside and break it while the forces being sieged are able to come out and grind the enemy down between a two pronged attack.

[lokkorex]

and they lost whatever humanity they had left by being sent into the meatgrinder time and again.

 

and perturabo went along with his orders because he wanted to be the obedient and uncomplaining son, though he and his legion were withered down from the inside out by the gruelling sieges.

[Kol Saresk]

maverike_prime, on 14 Aug 2013 - 19:13, said:

siege warfare is about patience. You surround your target, cut off their

lines of support and resupply and you pound it until it submits or is

destroyed. A properly executed siege can not be broken by the target's

standing forces. But at the same time it's extremely costly to the siege

army. You need to commit considerable resources to the siege and commit

to it for an extended period of time. Months perhaps even years

depending on the target.

 

Defense is an entirely different strategy.

Many people think putting a wall is defense. It's not, not by itself.

Any wall, no matter how well built, no matter how thick WILL be beaten

and broken by a sustained attack. So what do you do? You place offensive

assets to break the attack before it can break the wall. These may

include cannons to bombard the enemy as they attack, traps to delay the

enemies ability to advance, or even forward attack forces to disrupt the

enemies ability to attack you.

 

Both of these factors come into play with the legions in question. The siege of terra could not be under taken as a proper siege for a variety of reasons, not

the least of which being time. With other legions including the Ultramarines otherwise engaged, but on their way to Terra the Traitor

Legions could not under take a proper siege. Thus they opted for an over whelming fire power assault hoping to break through the defense quickly and land a decisive strike.

 

So citing the failure of the Siege of Terra as a mark against the Iron Warriors ability as siege specialists is rather unfounded and

mis-leading. It's like trying to say that Jeff Gordon is a bad driver because he accidentally backed a U-haul truck into the dock when he was

helping his friend move. Jeff Gordon is a Stock Car racer. He drives cars at 150+ miles per hour. It's not the same thing as driving a U-haul truck.

 

Same deal with asking if the Imperial Fists are good at Siege warfare because they were experts in defense. Defensive strategy as it applies to beating a siege is literally focused on either not getting in a siege in the first place, or in having forces that can attack the sieging force froum outside and break it while the forces being sieged are able to come out and grind the enemy down between a two pronged attack.

It would be fair to say that in a siege, the best defenders are just as offensive as the people attacking them, correct? And that in actuality, it would end up coming to how each side came about to engaging in that offense? Meaning that the Iron Warriors would be good with a siege, but the Imperial Fists would be good at breaking the self-same siege? A matter of mutual annihilation?

[Legatus]

We have been over this only six months ago. 

 

To reiterate: The Imperial Fists were not specialised in siege warfare. They were very good at preemtively planning a campaign, and they were very determined in ether pressing on an attack or holding a position. Both those traits meant that they were generally excellent in static warfare situations, where a fortified position needed to either be held or taken, and perhaps less so it more fluid and unpredictable situations. This is then generally translated into "the Imperial Fists were very good at sieges", but that was just because their inherent traits were well suited for them, not because they themselves actively tried to specialise in them. 

 

Meanwhile, Perturabo is the siege Primarch leading the siege Legion in siege after siege, doing pretty much sieges all throughout the Great Crusade, and having his siege doctrine included in the Codex Astartes. 

 

One of them was and will forever be known as the master of siege warfare. The other just happened to be pretty good at them. 

[High MarshalGR]

The Iron Warriors' main flaw, in my mind, was that they completely lacked any sort of humanity. They were little more than mindless automatons. And it's easy to make us pity them, But remember that they were the ones who chose to do as they did. Never forget that

On top of all that, the Imperial Fists rightly deserve their battle honours, since they were the ones that usually turned the outcome of battles into an Imperial victory. Without them, countless worlds either would not have been conquered or would have cost the lives of many more Astartes than they already had taken.

But on a serious note, to me it seems like a question of what would win, the unstoppable force or the immovable object? Someone who actually knows stuff about modern warfare might be able to compare their strenghts and weaknesses though.

Nice comparison that you've got there

For me, both were great for different reasons. IW did cross-training on Mars, were really good at using technology and really advanced artillery all while applying their cold, methodical line of thought to break it. IF used pretty different means. Endless willpower and discipline, a fiery heart which is immovable and the experience out of duty they were so honoured for. That added with the fact they had both aggressive and defensive companies.

[lokkorex]

Legatus summed up my views on this subject pretty darn good.

[Kol Saresk]

Eh, they're debating just how good the Imperial Fists are at siege-craft. Who cares if it isn't their specialty? It's something the IF are good enough at to be known for, even if by convenience, so I say let the community dig in.

[jeremy1391]

Well the emperor would not choose the lesser siege defender to fortify his palace.... Just sayin. ;)

[Marshal Rohr]

Alright everybody,

 

Gentlemen, you know the rules. Micrometers in hand, genitals out.

 

Let the measuring begin!

[Vesper]

Tenebris, on 15 Aug 2013 - 00:09, said:

You want a fortress toppled than you call the Iron Warriors, you want a fortress defended, than you call the Imperial Fists.

Well, at the Iron Cage and Olympia, the IW proved they were the best at defending too.

Well the emperor would not choose the lesser siege defender to fortify his palace.... Just sayin.

Or maybe the IW were just too valuable to the Crusade to make them retreat to Terra for a single fortress.

[Legatus]

Well the emperor would not choose the lesser siege defender to fortify his palace.... Just sayin.

Or maybe the IW were just too valuable to the Crusade to make them retreat to Terra for a single fortress.

Or maybe the Emperor had something different in mind for his grand palace than steel, concrete, and barbed wire.

[Kol Saresk]

If Perturabo can build an amphitheater that impresses Fulgrim, he can build a palace.

[calgar101]

Dorn spent 7 years fortifying and planning the defence of Terra; It took Perturabo less than 3 months to crack them open. My money is on the Iron Warriors. As I see it the Imperial Fists stubborn nature makes them suited to defensive operations but not the fortress defending experts that they seem to always be made out to be.

[Marshal Rohr]

You know it's a bad day when I walk into this thread and think 'I'm getting too old for this :cuss ' and hobble out to go yell at neophytes on my lawn.

[Dosjetka]

 

Tenebris, on 15 Aug 2013 - 00:09, said:

You want a fortress toppled than you call the Iron Warriors, you want a fortress defended, than you call the Imperial Fists.

Well, at the Iron Cage and Olympia, the IW proved they were the best at defending too.

 

I wouldn't say that they proved that they were the best, simply because they did not manage to beat the Imperial Fists (at least, that's how I see it in my biased point of view).

[Emperor's Furor]

Afaik The Imperial Fists broke through the Iron Cage, Dorn made it to the centre and Perturabo ran away.