The "best" siege warfare specialists: IF vs IW

[Kol Saresk]

Depends on the point of view. One account says it was a massive, masochistic purging of the Legion. The other account says it was a massacre. One says Dorn left when he decided to leave. One says Guilliman had to bail him out. Both agree it was a trap Dorn fell for. Both agree that Perturabo ascended in the aftermath.

[Excessus]

Afaik The Imperial Fists broke through the Iron Cage, Dorn made it to the centre and Perturabo ran away.

Not quite...

 

...and it just showed that Perturabo did not only fool the Imperial Fists, he fooled you as well! ;)

[Emperor's Furor]

He didn't fool Dorn though, Dorn knew it was a trap and chose to enter it as penance for his perceived failure to defend the Emperor.

[Conn Eremon]

I've always seen the Iron Warriors as the under-appreciated superiors. The Imperial Fists weren't the greatest masters of siege warfare, merely the Legion perceived to be.

 

That said, neither of the two Legions were just siege specialists. Both had other aspects, both complimentary and not. The Imperial Fists were a more natural choice as designers of the Imperial Palace's fortress enhancements, outside of their siege specialist.

 

However, again this had more to do with perception. The Iron Warriors could have been just as noble and appealing as the Fists, had they not become embittered by their use in the Crusade.

[Vesper]

He didn't fool Dorn though, Dorn knew it was a trap and chose to enter it as penance for his perceived failure to defend the Emperor.

 

 

Hence "Oh yeah, Perturabo ? I'll totally bring him back to Terra in an iron cage, it'll be fun".

 

A few weeks later. "Let's call it the Iron Cage incident".

 

 

 

Afaik The Imperial Fists broke through the Iron Cage, Dorn made it to the centre and Perturabo ran away.

And when he made it to the center, he found an IF helmet... And yet more IW defensive structures.

Perturabo was proving a point. He left when he broke Dorn, because that was the objective.

[Kol Saresk]

He didn't fool Dorn though, Dorn knew it was a trap and chose to enter it as penance for his perceived failure to defend the Emperor.

According to the Imperial Fists IA, that is true. According to the Iron Warriors IA, not so true. But how do we tell which history is biased and which is not? It depends on the point of view. There are literally two sides to this story and uniquely enough, we see both sides.

[Vesper]

Those who lost lie.

Then, there are facts that allow us to find out who lost.

- Perturabo ascended to DP status.

- It took two decades for the IF to be once more able to go back to battle.

 

The name of the battle : the Iron Cage incident, also tells us a lot on what really happened there.

[jeremy1391]

Well Dorn stayed loyal, Perturabo fell.... Pert fell because he was all poopy about how his legion was being used. So there is a character weakness right there, e became a traitor so is not the best because he couldn't even live up to his oath.

 

After failing to take the palace at Terra he was chased to the eye of terror, winners don't run ;)

[Spinsanity]

Right and Wrong has and will always be written from the PoV of the winner... You say he was weak because he broke his vows and rebelled?

Is that also how you see your Founding Fathers' character? They went all poopy-faced about how the nasty brits were treating their brothers instead of sucking it up like big guys would have?

[Vesper]

Well Dorn stayed loyal, Perturabo fell.... Pert fell because he was all poopy about how his legion was being used. So there is a character weakness right there, e became a traitor so is not the best because he couldn't even live up to his oath.

After failing to take the palace at Terra he was chased to the eye of terror, winners don't run

He actually took the Palace. Broke it in two months, invaded the majority. The Palace was lost, and the traitors were about to break the inner sanctum when the emperor teleported to the Vengeful Spirit.

On character weakness, Dorn going crazy when he understood he failed to live up to his oath (protecting the emperor) is also a nice weakness (that makes him a nice character, weaknesses are cool when well written).

I could also strike under the belt by saying that Perturabo is alive by 40k, when Dorn got killed. But I will refrain from doing so.

[Kol Saresk]

Those who lost lie.

Then, there are facts that allow us to find out who lost.

- Perturabo ascended to DP status.

- It took two decades for the IF to be once more able to go back to battle.

 

The name of the battle : the Iron Cage incident, also tells us a lot on what really happened there.

Sometimes those who win lie. How many U.S. citizens learn that Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves? All of them. How many of them learn afterwards that the Emancipation Proclamation only freed the slaves that were under Confederacy Law(Which would be like North Korea telling South Korea what to do) and it was done so after the Union heard the South was looking to abolition as an incentive to recruit slaves as soldiers and that it was only after Lincoln's death that Congress amended the Proclamation to include all slaves under Union Law? Not many. The Confederacy lost. The Union won. But look who lied.

[Emperor's Furor]

There's no lying imo, the Imperial Fists deliberately went into the meat grinder (as a chapter mind you as it notes afterwards they sat back and let the Black Templars and Crimson Fists take the reins) to cleanse themselves of the belief they had failed the Emperor, they did die, in droves but Dorn did end up in the middle of the Iron Cage. Yeah so Perturabo ascended but Dorn also achieved what he wanted to do.

[Kol Saresk]

And that might be what they believe. The truth is what people believe it to be. The Imperial Fists believe it was a purge. The Iron Warriors believe it was a massacre. Regardless of the point of view, the Imperial Fists did come out better for it, whether or not it was the intent is redundant. Regardless of the point of view, Perturabo did ascend admist the corpses of the Imerpial Fist fallen.

 

We don't know which one is wrong, which one is right. That's the point of it. To have two separate standings looking at the same event but seeing two completely different things.

[Vesper]

There's no lying imo, the Imperial Fists deliberately went into the meat grinder (as a chapter mind you as it notes afterwards they sat back and let the Black Templars and Crimson Fists take the reins) to cleanse themselves of the belief they had failed the Emperor, they did die, in droves but Dorn did end up in the middle of the Iron Cage. Yeah so Perturabo ascended but Dorn also achieved what he wanted to do.

Dorn wanted to bring Perturabo back to Terra in an iron cage. It's an actual quote from his lips, that was the goal. Needless to say, he failed miserably, hence why the battle is called "the Iron Cage incident".

He tried to get to the center of the fortress, thinking he would find Perturabo there, but got insanely outsmarted. And he only found an IF helmet at the center of the fortress. I suppose it meant : "You only achieved the slaughter of you legion, great job, pal".

 

 

Sometimes those who win lie.

Oh yeah, surely. But I was talking of that perticular battle.

 

 

the Imperial Fists did come out better for it

Not being able to fight for two decades is "better" than how the IF were before they started the battle ?

[High MarshalGR]

And that might be what they believe. The truth is what people believe it to be. The Imperial Fists believe it was a purge. The Iron Warriors believe it was a massacre. Regardless of the point of view, the Imperial Fists did come out better for it, whether or not it was the intent is redundant. Regardless of the point of view, Perturabo did ascend admist the corpses of the Imerpial Fist fallen.

 

We don't know which one is wrong, which one is right. That's the point of it. To have two separate standings looking at the same event but seeing two completely different things.

 

Nice. I'll quote a bit:

 

It was Dorn's decision that the Legion would symbolically enter into the pain glove together and emerge according to the Codex Astartes. This opportunity presented itself in the battle that became known as The Iron Cage. The Imperial Fists had largely dismantled the Iron Warriors empire in their campaigns immediately after the Heresy. Upon discovering the Eternal Fortress, a twenty square mile fortress constructed by the Iron Warriors, Dorn, fuelled by his enmity towards Perturabo, committed the entire Legion to its assault.^[2c]

Perturabo and his Legion were masters of defence and siege in their own rite and had designed the Eternal Fortress as a trap to ensnare the Imperial Fists. Ceding further advantage to the Iron Warriors, Dorn led the assault without his customary care in planning and preparation. What ensued was a near massacre. The Imperial Fists’ formations were broken, reduced to fighting with combat knives battle-brother by battle-brother in half flooded trenches with their ammunition expended.^[2c]

Yet, the Imperial Fists endured and the Iron Warriors were unable to finish them, lacking the faith to make the ultimate sacrifice that victory demanded. The Ultramarines then intervened, driving off the traitors.^[2c]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Fists#.Ug0yPNIz0x4

 

I don't think Dorn was a jackass who said "Hey, let's go there! It will be fun!". It might have been symbolically viewed as a battle of the Imperial Fists vs themselves, considering the way the chapter uses pain and how it perceives it. An attack without hope maybe, from which the ones fit fom the Codex emerged and their willpower sustained them through what would be considered as a suicide mission.

 

IW from the other hand mocked IF for the entrance and very well inflicted great casualties on the IF, Perturabo's intelligence serving them well in attempting to crush the willpower of the IF. 

[Spinsanity]

"So Roboute, you think I can't have more than 1,000 marines under my command? Fine then, I'll let the extras die to the IW instead of fracturing my leadership even more"

 

Is that it? o.Ô

[GhostMalone]

It's pretty pathetic when you think about dorn. I failed now even though this is an obvious trap ima charge in and watch my sons get gunned down.

 

I think he looked at angrons copy of the codex astrates where every tactic is CHARGE!!! And a side note saying :cuss attrition rates

[Kol Saresk]

More like "If you are going to break us apart, then I'll make sure that only the strong are there to be broken apart." One hand, a noble gesture ensuring that the second Founding IF successors were what Dorn considered to be the best of the best of the best of his Legion. On the other hand, if that is what he walked away from the Iron Cage thinking, then it isn't too different from Horus' mindset at Istvaan III when he did his own culling. Granted, one was intentional and the other wasn't. It all depends on the mindset. Basically, perception has a lot to do with 40K. A D-B was right to use the quote "What you perceive is your reality."

[High MarshalGR]

More like "If you are going to break us apart, then I'll make sure that only the strong are there to be broken apart." One hand, a noble gesture ensuring that the second Founding IF successors were what Dorn considered to be the best of the best of the best of his Legion. On the other hand, if that is what he walked away from the Iron Cage thinking, then it isn't too different from Horus' mindset at Istvaan III when he did his own culling. Granted, one was intentional and the other wasn't. It all depends on the mindset. Basically, perception has a lot to do with 40K. A D-B was right to use the quote "What you perceive is your reality."

 

Pretty good, but I think his motives had a lot in common with the pain glove Imperial Fists work with individually in the legion's scale. It was like a cleansing, a judgment delivered onto the Legion. I would say Dorn didn't care about the casualties, they may have been 0, they may have been all. The penance, the cleanse, the judgment were what I think Rogal Dorn pursued with that action. Let's not forget pain is pretty sophisticated for the IF.

[Kol Saresk]

True. Like I said, it all depends on how you look at it. Sometimes in order to make something new, you have to break something old. And the Pain Glove(or the ideal it represented) was the focus used to both break the old and build the new. At least, I think that's what you're getting at, right?

[Spinsanity]

Pretty good, but I think his motives had a lot in common with the pain glove Imperial Fists work with individually in the legion's scale. It was like a cleansing, a judgment delivered onto the Legion. I would say Dorn didn't care about the casualties, they may have been 0, they may have been all. The penance, the cleanse, the judgment were what I think Rogal Dorn pursued with that action. Let's not forget pain is pretty sophisticated for the IF.

It was pretty much the most selfish act any Primarch has done... It was not the Legion's penance, it was his. It was his way of seeking repentance, even though his legionaires would be the ones paying the price. He saccrificed his sons because he couldn't find any way to deal with his grief and shame!

D'oh, finally fixed it! >_<

+ Edit : I know, it's the way I want to look at it, Dorn most likely wasn't such a douche, I just tend to prefer the guys who sided with Horus...

[High MarshalGR]

True. Like I said, it all depends on how you look at it. Sometimes in order to make something new, you have to break something old. And the Pain Glove(or the ideal it represented) was the focus used to both break the old and build the new. At least, I think that's what you're getting at, right?

 

That's how I think Dorn approached the matter. He was known for his fine military mind (asa well as his idea for pain), and simply walking into a trap for no reason isn't what the fluff presents him as. IW or other legions, for example, may have thought he went insane. That's where the point of view goes me thinks. I am merely trying to intercept the facts from IFs (and Dorn's) fluff, methods and ideals. A test of willpower, the whole last man standing thing.

 

@Player not found: I can think of many selfish acts for almost all (if not all) Primarchs... Other than that, you either get the philosophy behind IF and the reasons they do what they do, or you troll them to death. Dorn went emo for a reason I find kinda foolish too (the whole "not being able to protect the Emperor" thing), but he found his own way to set things straight and deal with his shame. Some think he was right, some think he was wrong. Some agree with his methods, some don't. It's called being human.

[Kol Saresk]

Depending on your point of view, Angron giving the World Eaters the Nails so they could share in his torment is selfish. Curze damning himself and then damning his sons to becoming the very monsters he once killed was selfish. Perturabo allowing his sons to be so mentally abused just because he wanted to be the perfect son who did everything daddy told him to do was selfish. And the list can go on and on and ultimately...... It all depends on your point of view.

[Spinsanity]

I know Dorn and the VIIth had a fascination with pain, I just can't fathom what the whole point of voluntarily throwing his sons into a slaughterhouse. Who is he blaming for the failure to defend the Palace and the Emperor, his Legion? Why is it they were the ones who had to suffer to clear his conscience?

 

I can understand the traditional symbolism linking pain and purification; I guess I just don't understand how wilfully sending his Legion to the slaughter has any inkling of resemblance to a penance of pain. There's a huge difference between self-flagelation and martyrdom, between pain/scars and death.

 

And sure enough, most Primarchs have hurt their sons in one way or another at one point, often leaving crippling flaws and scars. However Dorn didn't just hurt or scar them, it wsn't just trauma he inflicted on the ones that survived; he pretty much sacrificed, discarded his legionnaires. While the purpose might/could (depending on your pov) might be more noble than, say, Angron's, Perturabo's or Curze's (taking Kol's examples above) motives, the means had far greater consequences.

 

(Note : I know some scars, especially any that has to do with one's identity/morals can have a very severe impact on one's life and one's enjoyment of life and I would never be one to dismiss anyone's suffering; still, although the suffering they cause can be severe, there always remains the possibility of eventually overcoming said pain, an eventuallity which death does not offer)

 

+ Edit : Weird, somehow the forum inserted html code instead of line feed when I first sent this post...

[Conn Eremon]

You're acting like the Legions were nothing more than automatons dancing around on their Primarch's strings.

 

The Imperial Fists were not forced into the Iron Cage incident. THEY blamed THEMSELVES as much as Dorn blamed himself. Dorn didn't fees his men into the grinder because he blamed them for failing the Emperor. They all walked into that nightmare in penance, Primarch and Legion alike. They all suffered to clear their consciences. Nobody was a scapegoat for someone else's guilt. Then, at that time, they were all equals.

 

The same goes for other Legions and their Primarchs. The World Eaters wanted the Nails as a bond between them. It wasn't merely forced upon them. The Night Lords weren't forced to be monsters. They already were. Fulgrim didn't drag his sons down the impossible path to perfection. They had taken those first steps on their own. Sanguinius didn't selfishly damn his sons to his curse, he wailed at the idea and wanted to save them. Horus didn't pull his sons into damnation. They were caught up in the same whirlwind. Lorgar didn't batter his beliefs into his Legion. They also wanted to believe in something, anything.