The "best" siege warfare specialists: IF vs IW

[Wade Garrett]

Well the emperor would not choose the lesser siege defender to fortify his palace.... Just sayin. ;)

The Emperor's good judgement. This is what you wish to base your argument on.

 

"Man, Malcador, that Angron kid...oh, just teleport him up out of all those starving slaves. He'll get over it eventually."

 

"It's been two hundred years and Lorgar is still worshipping me? Right oh, then...Roboute, go to that planet he likes so much and bomb it into the Bronze Age. That'll fix everything."

 

"Hi, Konrad. What a peaceful planet you have created by personally hunting down all evil doers and eating them and their entire families, right down to the children and pets. I need you to leave it and teach this army of superhuman soldiers your ways."

[Kol Saresk]

"Hi, Konrad. What a peaceful planet you have created by personally hunting down all evil doers and eating them and their entire families, right down to the children and pets. I need you to leave it and teach this army of superhuman soldiers your ways so my people can let it slide back into the cesspool of murderers and rapists that it was before you showed up. I feel like they would make excellent soldiers."

There, fixed that for you. ;)

 

But yeah, how did Harry Dresden put it?

 

(Paraphrased)"What someone sees as responsible and wise isn't the same thing as responsible and wise."

[Hyaenidae]

The Emperor's good judgement. This is what you wish to base your argument on.

 

"Man, Malcador, that Angron kid...oh, just teleport him up out of all those starving slaves. He'll get over it eventually."

 

"It's been two hundred years and Lorgar is still worshipping me? Right oh, then...Roboute, go to that planet he likes so much and bomb it into the Bronze Age. That'll fix everything."

 

"Hi, Konrad. What a peaceful planet you have created by personally hunting down all evil doers and eating them and their entire families, right down to the children and pets. I need you to leave it and teach this army of superhuman soldiers your ways."

 

God, that's beautiful. You just became my new favorite person for the week.

[depthcharge12]

Those who lost lie.

Then, there are facts that allow us to find out who lost.

- Perturabo ascended to DP status.

- It took two decades for the IF to be once more able to go back to battle.

The name of the battle : the Iron Cage incident, also tells us a lot on what really happened there.

Sometimes those who win lie. How many U.S. citizens learn that Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves? All of them. How many of them learn afterwards that the Emancipation Proclamation only freed the slaves that were under Confederacy Law(Which would be like North Korea telling South Korea what to do) and it was done so after the Union heard the South was looking to abolition as an incentive to recruit slaves as soldiers and that it was only after Lincoln's death that Congress amended the Proclamation to include all slaves under Union Law? Not many. The Confederacy lost. The Union won. But look who lied.

Sweet mother of Jesus yes.

I am so glad someone else knows this. I have to correct people about it, and they just get all poopy about it. But thats America for you, bring up some legitimate facts that aren't emotions and everyone loses their minds.

But back to 30k

I think that Perterabo is actually a tragic hero who does his work thanklessly. To me it seems like the IF just want glory and will be stubborn enough to get it, but not necessarily be effective at seige craft.

The IWs know that the battle is in the trenches and will doggedly pursue their objective by any means possible. Battles arent just won by just one push of the envelope, but rather a once more unto the breach mentality.

One could even say the World eaters were better at seige tactics than the fists....

[Conn Eremon]

Americans with actual post-public schooling education tend to be fully aware of Lincoln's hypocrisy. But what are you gonna do? American needs him to be a hero and nobody wants their hero sullied.

[Marshal Rohr]

Perturabo as Abraham Lincoln? Ron Paul is pleased.

[Kol Saresk]

Pfffh. A man who starts a war because he doesn't want to be the man who lost his own country is no hero of mine. There's a reaon I don't like the Emperor. False morality. Yeah, no thanks. Grew up with enough of that.

[Wade Garrett]

Guys?

 

The whole point of the War of Northern Aggression was the Union's assertion the Cotton States had no authority to leave, so they were never a North/South Korea two country situation.

 

This proposition was supported by Messrs Grant and Sherman smashing all claimants to the contrary, thus...here we are.

 

Oh, and accusing Lincoln of starting the conflict kinda ignores the fact that we shot first at Fort Sumter.

[GhostMalone]

I only honour those that stay true to human nature. Peace does not exsistence neither does freedom.

 

Ill kill to protect those I care for and could not care about the rest.

 

That's why I like kol he thinks just like a night lord, everyone can find something in this hobby because each legion is a facet of human nature.

 

I myself am angry as :cuss violent aswell towards outsiders, I have my brotherhood with my mates and I have my love for my lady and family

[Kol Saresk]

Well since North Korea thinks South Korea should still be under its jurisdiction, technically it is very similar.

 

I mean come on, how many Americans look back at the Revolution and say that the Patriots were outlaws for breaking British law? Again, it comes back to that perception and bias of those who actually write history. Although since Obama was willing to let New York secede if they got enough signatures on the petition, I'd say that the current President thinks that States do have the right to leave.

 

Also, we did give them a warning. Not our fault they followed orders to sit tight.

[Kol Saresk]

Although, we should probably move back towards the general topic.

 

That's why I like kol he thinks just like a night lord

dude, you just made me scare myself.

[Conn Eremon]

That's why I like kol he thinks just like a night lord, everyone can find something in this hobby because each legion is a facet of human nature.

What does that mean for those who, like me, like all of the Legions almost equally? Bipolar?

[GhostMalone]

As in each person can identify a trait within a legion. I love the world eaters because they are pure anger and brotherhood I identify with said traits

[Marshal Rohr]

I totally agree Jaspcat. I love the VII Legion because they held the Imperial Palace and kept Pertuabo out ;P And their 1st Captain killed his oathbrother Khârn. 

[Kol Saresk]

I'm still scaring myself over here!

[Conn Eremon]

Man, you would make a terrible Night Lord.

 

"Well, Mr. Night Haunter, sir. I had come up with a truly diabolical nightmare for these Hivemen, but, well . . . Well, it was a REALLY scary idea. I mean, wow. I'm still shivering. But uhm. If you give me a minute, maybe I can tell it to someone and they, uhm they . . . Someone else can do it . . . You're like, really scary looking, by the way," Kol says, huddled in a corner.

 

And I would make a great Emerald Tiger! /pre-emptive strike

[Kol Saresk]

Actually it's more like when you think you know what you're capable of and then someone points something out, and then you look in the mirror and you don't entirely recognize what's there.

 

At least, I think that's a good analogy.........

[Conn Eremon]

Sure, sure. Whatever you say.

 

Nah, I understand. All you Chaos-lovers should feel that way.

[Kol Saresk]

Eh, the Imperium isn't all that different. At least the Traitors are honest that they're monsters. :P

[High MarshalGR]

Pfffh. A man who starts a war because he doesn't want to be the man who lost his own country is no hero of mine. There's a reaon I don't like the Emperor. False morality. Yeah, no thanks. Grew up with enough of that.

 

I would personally say the Emperor's morals is an issue hard to consider since he hardly know anything about it. His purpose yes, we can. His morals are something I personally can't track down and morality is a pretty subjective issue. What I will say though, is that he has done many mistakes outside his correct choices. It's simply a saying we have here in Greece, "If you do the right thing no one remembers you. If you do a wrong, no one forgets you". Emperor haters keep his mistakes while his correct choices are thrown in the garbage bin. Also, the Imperium isn't the Emperor controlling everything directly.

 

Now for his mistakes (at least the ones previously mentioned), he thought Angron was a reasonable fellow with limits so he pulled him out of his grave (pretty bad idea if you ask me, but I am not thinking as Angron's father nor do I think Angron is sane to begin with), Curze is a really complex individual I liked and showed off some good character traits, and in Lorgar's case... He pushed him to being traitor.

 

Back on topic, since the discussion is getting a pretty different direction, I too think Perturabo was underappreciated and handled badly. His mistake was to undertake all those costly sieges and garrisons without resentment or questioning, which is something Horus took advantage of in the extreme to turn him traitor easily.  IF's weren't made out of sugar either. They had many traits which rentered them great for sieges.

[DarthMarko]

Alright everybody,

 

Gentlemen, you know the rules. Micrometers in hand, genitals out.

 

Let the measuring begin!

Dude you made me laugh so hard I spilled beer on my laptop - damn you :-)

[DarthMarko]

As in each person can identify a trait within a legion. I love the world eaters because they are pure anger and brotherhood I identify with said traits

WE aren't about brotherhood I'm sure on that, maybe you need to check BT.....those traits are theirs 1000%...

 

IF and Dorn, always Dorn, Dorn, Dorn, Dorn...because I like him more...that's it......sorry about dp

[Verity]

 

As in each person can identify a trait within a legion. I love the world eaters because they are pure anger and brotherhood I identify with said traits

WE aren't about brotherhood I'm sure on that, maybe you need to check BT.....those traits are theirs 1000%...

 

IF and Dorn, always Dorn, Dorn, Dorn, Dorn...because I like him more...that's it......sorry about dp

To be perfectly fair, I'm pretty sure it's been recently established that whilst they were the War Hounds, and indeed for some time after that, one of their main defining traits was their sense of brotherhood being so strong. I think this is also meant to be reflected with Angron, and his rage at the Emperor forcing him to abandon those who he had come to think of as his brothers and sisters - the former slaves that rose up with him, and then died without him.

[Kol Saresk]

The World Eaters do indeed have a strong sense of brotherhood, or at least they did. Surprising, given the fact they are as coordinated a fighting force as a newborn baby deer.

[Conn Eremon]

It isn't an easy brotherhood, though. Betrayer revealed that the War Hounds were very much about brotherhood, but that it was something they tried hard to hold onto after their transition to World Eaters and could feel slipping away.