The "best" siege warfare specialists: IF vs IW

[High MarshalGR]

The World Eaters do indeed have a strong sense of brotherhood, or at least they did. Surprising, given the fact they are as coordinated a fighting force as a newborn baby deer.

 

War Hounds were almost a different Legion that the World Eaters if you ask me. Almost like what the Dusk Raiders were compared to the Death Guard.

[Kol Saresk]

I wasn't referring to the War Hounds though.

[Emperor's Furor]

 

The World Eaters do indeed have a strong sense of brotherhood, or at least they did. Surprising, given the fact they are as coordinated a fighting force as a newborn baby deer.

 

War Hounds were almost a different Legion that the World Eaters if you ask me. Almost like what the Dusk Raiders were compared to the Death Guard.

They weren't. The Dusk Raiders were honourable and had a good reputation with the rest of the legions, the War Hounds were disliked and had a bad reputation for the same reason before Angron was there.

[High MarshalGR]

I wasn't referring to the War Hounds though.

 

I merely connected the posts... I know what you said. 

@Wot: I'm not talking about rep, I'm reffering to the changes that were enforced on those 2 Legions and all the traditions they lost etc.

[Kol Saresk]

There was some difference. I used this somewhere else but the transition from War Hound to World Eater was akin to going from a Javelin to a dirty nuke. The War Hounds, you could point at something and they would kill it. Brutal, but effective. The World Eaters, if you pointed at a target, they would kill everything between them and the target and then some. You also had to make sure you weren't in front of them when you pointed.

 

The War Hounds were very good in terms of brotherhood. The World Eaters still kept it up, but not like they used to. The Librarians are a popular example. They were so shunned by their brothers that when the Edict of Nikea was passed, the brothers wouldn't let them rejoin the rank and file. Of course now, they make the Night Lords look like a happy family. I can just imagine the XII at the dinner table:

 

"Achoo!"

 

*chainaxe revving before it eats through flesh and bone

 

"What did you do that for?"

 

"He sneezed on his food."

 

"Are you going to eat it?"

 

"No, he sneezed on it."

[Emperor's Furor]

Grr so many different conversations going on in two threads about past legions, it's confusing me lol.

[High MarshalGR]

There was some difference. I used this somewhere else but the transition from War Hound to World Eater was akin to going from a Javelin to a dirty nuke. The War Hounds, you could point at something and they would kill it. Brutal, but effective. The World Eaters, if you pointed at a target, they would kill everything between them and the target and then some. You also had to make sure you weren't in front of them when you pointed.

 

The War Hounds were very good in terms of brotherhood. The World Eaters still kept it up, but not like they used to. The Librarians are a popular example. They were so shunned by their brothers that when the Edict of Nikea was passed, the brothers wouldn't let them rejoin the rank and file. Of course now, they make the Night Lords look like a happy family. I can just imagine the XII at the dinner table:

 

"Achoo!"

 

*chainaxe revving before it eats through flesh and bone

 

"What did you do that for?"

 

"He sneezed on his food."

 

"Are you going to eat it?"

 

"No, he sneezed on it."

 

I did read it (and I remember the last time you wrote it), and i think alike myself. 

On the topic though, I would like to know why the successes of the IW weren't acknowledged and honored like the other Legions. Was it because of the distance and the cold they created towards the other Legions?

[Kol Saresk]

Oh. Hehehe......

Not sure about the Iron Warriors.

[Tenebris]

A breach in a fortress wall, someone has to scale it...

 

IF mentality: Huzzah, we have opened the way for our infantry, onward to glorious martyrdoom, onward for the Emperor, let the pain cleanse our souls and make us stronger...

 

IW mentality: Huzzah, those guns actually worked, so much for "experimental weapons"...ok, we have trenchwire, mines, three heavy weapon nests, twenty meters of rubble to climb over...hmm that makes for an approximately 73,2 Imperial Army troopers dead and 11,6 Iron Warriors dead...hmm good odds. Onward, take the fortress. 

 

And you know who would be better in this case? Sadly the Imperial Fists. Their high morals, desire to martyr upon the battlefield and win glory would spur them not only over that wall but over a hundred of such walls. In the end the most inspired and spirited warrior wins, even if he lacks technical expertise or the mastery of a specific form of warfare. 

 

Still I favor the Iron Warriors over the Imperial Fists, they are much closer to my character. 

[Phalanx Warder]

here are the facts as i see them.

The iron Warriors along with the rest of all the traitorous scum were turned away from terra by the might of the Fists. That is not to say that the other loyalists did not have a big part to play but the palace was the Imperial Fist pride and joy and ultimate responsibility.

 

At the fort of the Iron Warriors "death trap" didn't (cant seem to remember the name) break the Fists though no true resolution was achieved. Lets put this into focus, Dorn didn't take the whole legion only the Die Hard men of the legion or in other words a fraction.

based off of that alone I would have to say the fists they defended and in limited numbers didnt break like the iron warriors and there kin once faced with unbeatable odds.

[Kol Saresk]

The Iron Cage incident. If you go back one or two pages, that was discussed in detail.

[Tenebris]

For some clarity:

 

As I see it, the Imperial Fists are NOT bioengineered knights but they are bioengineered MARTYRS. A knight, a crusader is just an extreme typology of a martyr in the end. And being a martyr lends well when you have to hopelessly defend a fortress wall or you are part of the forlorn hope that has to go up in the breach...Because you don't mind what is ahead of you, as long as you have the chance to become a glorious martyr. 

 

The IF the best siegemasters? Oh come on, lets be serious for a moment and cut this preposterous thing before it gets even more flame. Good yes, but not masters, not by a LOOOOOONG shot. Yet they have an edge, they LOVE to die...

 

To crack the Imperial Palace in a few months, with three astartes legions defending it and woefully outnumbered and outgunned IS a tribute to Perturabo and his sons as the ultimate siegemasters. The Imperial Fists played their part as defenders, skillfully too, but they are NOT that good as people credit them I dare say. 

 

What gave them a chance against the IW is just one thing, their forma mentis. Their utter will and wish to DIE for the Emperor. This is NOT a character trait but a bioengineered thing that comes from Dorn's geneline. 

[Marshal Rohr]

The whole Imperial Fists legion was at the Iron Cage.

[High MarshalGR]

 

For some clarity:

 

As I see it, the Imperial Fists are NOT bioengineered knights but they are bioengineered MARTYRS. A knight, a crusader is just an extreme typology of a martyr in the end. And being a martyr lends well when you have to hopelessly defend a fortress wall or you are part of the forlorn hope that has to go up in the breach...Because you don't mind what is ahead of you, as long as you have the chance to become a glorious martyr. 

 

The IF the best siegemasters? Oh come on, lets be serious for a moment and cut this preposterous thing before it gets even more flame. Good yes, but not masters, not by a LOOOOOONG shot. Yet they have an edge, they LOVE to die...

 

To crack the Imperial Palace in a few months, with three astartes legions defending it and woefully outnumbered and outgunned IS a tribute to Perturabo and his sons as the ultimate siegemasters. The Imperial Fists played their part as defenders, skillfully too, but they are NOT that good as people credit them I dare say. 

 

What gave them a chance against the IW is just one thing, their forma mentis. Their utter will and wish to DIE for the Emperor. This is NOT a character trait but a bioengineered thing that comes from Dorn's geneline. 

 

I think they are siegemasters in a pretty different way, their own way, which you yourself described above. The traits of stubborness, willpower, order, refusal to give up even when the odds are against them, would be the traits I would say make the IF great siegers and defenders. Also, don't forget the versatility of their Successor Chapters, since they are fundamentally different, showing the versatility the original IF Legion had in their ranks. I too think the IW are better siegers logically, in mind. But IF are better in heart, because they present something really different than the IW. I won't say IF are better or worse, I merely think IW offered their minds while IF offered their hearts to wat they did. Who is better is a subjective matter.

[Emperor's Furor]

Imperial Fists Legionnaires were the only marines to keep their whits about them when Fabius experimented on them as well btw.

[Marshal Rohr]

Meh, the Fabulous Bill subplot died for me after Galaxy in Flames. I didn't particularly care for where the 'not A D-B, Dan Abnett, John French, and Chris Wraight' authors where taking it. 

 

 

Many of these ridiculous subplot are killing the series. John Grammaticus looking for the spear thing from Vulkan Lives diminished his role in Betrayer, Know No Fear, and Legion. Fabius Bile getting jerked around so he can tie the HH series into McNeill's later books. The complete and total hijacking of the Alpha Legion into random stories. Also, a frequent complaint of mine: the rapeyness of McNeill's stuff. Just blegh. 

[Tenebris]

Well if your whole genetic heritage is based upon the mastery of pain, of a complete denial of the self, and the ingrained wish to atone for your "perceived" sins with glorious martyrdoom such a feat is only logical in lore terms. The IF do not stand their ground because they are Stubborn, that is a Dark Angels thing, the IF stand their ground because in their psyche it is very very good to die on that day.

 

Just take a look on the Executioners profile and you will see what I am implying. To die, to be rendered apart, to be shot and cut is the prerogative of the astartes but the IF engage in such practices with gleeful delight that we would later call Zeal. 

[High MarshalGR]

Well if your whole genetic heritage is based upon the mastery of pain, of a complete denial of the self, and the ingrained wish to atone for your "perceived" sins with glorious martyrdoom such a feat is only logical in lore terms. The IF do not stand their ground because they are Stubborn, that is a Dark Angels thing, the IF stand their ground because in their psyche it is very very good to die on that day.

 

Just take a look on the Executioners profile and you will see what I am implying. To die, to be rendered apart, to be shot and cut is the prerogative of the astartes but the IF engage in such practices with gleeful delight that we would later call Zeal. 

 

I have, and what I see is that Successor chapters varied greatly than the original IF, unlike Successor Chapters of other Legions. Also, I would argue that DA stand their ground if those are their orders. IF hold their ground because of their sheer willpower along with their high pain tolerance. Their issue with pain is a double edged sword. It does have it's pros and cons. They can withstand more wounds and injuries than other SM's, but they also use them to try themselves. 

 

There are also positives on their willingness to die for their oaths and beliefs. They don't suicide, they aren't afraid to die. I get what you're saying though, that they might have slightly crossed the fine line of order and martyrdom.

[Peter the Hermit]

Imperial Fists Legionnaires were the only marines to keep their whits about them when Fabius experimented on them as well btw.

Yeah, if somebody can get that quote from "tAE"....

[Legatus]

The Imperial Fists' determination is only half of what made them so good at attacking or defending fortifications. The other reason was their analytical mindset. Their battles are described as expertly planned. A trait that would be more usefull in static engagements than in fluid and unpredictable ones. Hence such static kinds of engagements would have been where the Imperial Fists would have really shined. 

 

But they were not consciously aspiring to be a Legion specialised in sieges, as the Iron Warriors were. 

[Wade Garrett]

 

Imperial Fists Legionnaires were the only marines to keep their whits about them when Fabius experimented on them as well btw.

Yeah, if somebody can get that quote from "tAE"....

"Keeping their wits" didn't stop them snacking their way through the Iron Hands aboard Sisypheum.

 

As for the Fists being willing to die for the Imperium, you don't win wars by dying for your country, you win by making the other guy die for his country.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, and at the end of the story they didn't exactly give the appearance of not being mindless animals. No, what made those Imperial Fists special, or specifically that Imperial Fist whose POV we get to see that his body was so able to cope with everything that Fabius put it through instead of just burning out like most of his other expirements and Bile believed it was a result of the gene-seed.

[Wade Garrett]

True.

[High MarshalGR]

The Imperial Fists' determination is only half of what made them so good at attacking or defending fortifications. The other reason was their analytical mindset. Their battles are described as expertly planned. A trait that would be more usefull in static engagements than in fluid and unpredictable ones. Hence such static kinds of engagements would have been where the Imperial Fists would have really shined. 

 

But they were not consciously aspiring to be a Legion specialised in sieges, as the Iron Warriors were. 

 

True. After all, in Horus Rising, Dorn is said to possess "one of the finest military minds". He was well versed in the art of war in my opinion. We simply got siegecraft, and I think the IF had traits that made them excellent for this type of warfare.

[High MarshalGR]

What I mean is, they well a really well-versed Legion in my opinion, something which is supported by the great differences the Successor Chapters of the IF demonstrate and the different approaches to warfare. This, in my opinion, presents a far more well-rounded Legion than most overally.