The "best" siege warfare specialists: IF vs IW

[Hyaenidae]

The whole Imperial Fists legion was at the Iron Cage.

 

The Imperial Fists Legion died in that Cage too, willingly. What walked out of that slaughter was four broken chapters, that took years to rebuild to even become a threat again. The only loyalist victor of the Iron Cage was Guilliman, because if he hadn't pulled Dorn from the brink in time, the entire IF gene-line would have ceased to exist right there.

[High MarshalGR]

 

The whole Imperial Fists legion was at the Iron Cage.

 

The Imperial Fists Legion died in that Cage too, willingly. What walked out of that slaughter was four broken chapters, that took years to rebuild to even become a threat again. The only loyalist victor of the Iron Cage was Guilliman, because if he hadn't pulled Dorn from the brink in time, the entire IF gene-line would have ceased to exist right there.

 

And the "what-if" scenarios begin again. Anyway, I think we discussed the Iron Cage extensively a few pages back. Some of us think it was an attempt to purge the Legion clean of the "sin" they thought they commited, remove their guilt and rise from their ashes like the Phoenix, some think they went insane and went on to suicide. Ultramarines indeed prevented the situation from going further, but I wanna avoid the whole "what-if" thing anyway.Not that things would be brighter if they haven't showed up, but I guess we could focus on what happened and not speculations since we have the fluff.

[Emperor's Furor]

Not all the Legion was at the Iron Cage, seeing as how it states afterwards the Imperial Fists sat back and let their successors do the heavy loading, so at least two chapters worth weren't present.

[Hyaenidae]

 

 

The whole Imperial Fists legion was at the Iron Cage.

 

The Imperial Fists Legion died in that Cage too, willingly. What walked out of that slaughter was four broken chapters, that took years to rebuild to even become a threat again. The only loyalist victor of the Iron Cage was Guilliman, because if he hadn't pulled Dorn from the brink in time, the entire IF gene-line would have ceased to exist right there.

 

And the "what-if" scenarios begin again. Anyway, I think we discussed the Iron Cage extensively a few pages back. Some of us think it was an attempt to purge the Legion clean of the "sin" they thought they commited, remove their guilt and rise from their ashes like the Phoenix, some think they went insane and went on to suicide. Ultramarines indeed prevented the situation from going further, but I wanna avoid the whole "what-if" thing anyway.Not that things would be brighter if they haven't showed up, but I guess we could focus on what happened and not speculations since we have the fluff.

 

My bad, not trying to turn it into a what if scenario. The Iron Cage was a worst case event anyway, as Dorn and his sons went into a known trap willingly. The Siege of Terra, I feel, is a far better gauge of both legions.

 

In the end, I feel that I would call on the Fists to hold a wall, and the IW's to take it down. In the end, a siege leads to only one end without outside intervention: a burning fortress, and a broken victor. One on one, both Legions would grind each other to dust and ash. There is no one who is better, as they are equal in killing.

 

Not all the Legion was at the Iron Cage, seeing as how it states afterwards the Imperial Fists sat back and let their successors do the heavy loading, so at least two chapters worth weren't present.

Source? I must have missed this.

[Emperor's Furor]

It's in the Index Astartes article.

[Hyaenidae]

It's in the Index Astartes article.

I'll have to check that when I get home to my books; can't believe I missed that. Thanks.

[Emperor's Furor]

It says "For the next two decades they went into retreat, their successor chapters taking to the field in their stead"

[Hyaenidae]

Wait, two decades in retreat after the Cage? Then the Imperial Fists Chapter accepted the losses, while boosting their successors to allow them to take the field. That makes more sense.

 

Again, thanks.

[High MarshalGR]

My bad, not trying to turn it into a what if scenario. The Iron Cage was a worst case event anyway, as Dorn and his sons went into a known trap willingly. The Siege of Terra, I feel, is a far better gauge of both legions.

 

In the end, I feel that I would call on the Fists to hold a wall, and the IW's to take it down. In the end, a siege leads to only one end without outside intervention: a burning fortress, and a broken victor. One on one, both Legions would grind each other to dust and ash. There is no one who is better, as they are equal in killing.

 

See, for me they aren't. I do like Perturabo and dislike his treatment by his brothers and the constant not being recognised for his good work, the constant sieges and garrison duties which wore them out (his fault was taking those tiring tasks without resentment), but there is something the IW lack when they  are compared with the IF. This is the heart. IF do what they do with their heart in it, while the IW do it with cold reasoning. For me this is a huge difference because I value the heart of the IF more than I do the cold approach of the IW. It is efficient, but it doesn't feel the same. Not really much of an equilizer break, merely a feeling.

[Hyaenidae]

I hear you, just from the opposite side of the room. I perfer detatchment and mathmatical calculation, which in my opinion prevents emotion-driven poor decisions during a siege. In the end, it's just all about how you perfer to fight, though.

 

Hell, the Alpha Legion probably beats us all, since while we've been talking, they've converted our followers, planted operatives in our ranks, poisioned our wells, and swapped our shells with defectives that'll detonate in the breech. :P

[Vesper]

 

My bad, not trying to turn it into a what if scenario. The Iron Cage was a worst case event anyway, as Dorn and his sons went into a known trap willingly. The Siege of Terra, I feel, is a far better gauge of both legions.

 

In the end, I feel that I would call on the Fists to hold a wall, and the IW's to take it down. In the end, a siege leads to only one end without outside intervention: a burning fortress, and a broken victor. One on one, both Legions would grind each other to dust and ash. There is no one who is better, as they are equal in killing.

 

See, for me they aren't. I do like Perturabo and dislike his treatment by his brothers and the constant not being recognised for his good work, the constant sieges and garrison duties which wore them out (his fault was taking those tiring tasks without resentment), but there is something the IW lack when they  are compared with the IF. This is the heart. IF do what they do with their heart in it, while the IW do it with cold reasoning. For me this is a huge difference because I value the heart of the IF more than I do the cold approach of the IW. It is efficient, but it doesn't feel the same. Not really much of an equilizer break, merely a feeling.

Thing is, when heart and "feelings" lead you into big fat traps where everyone dies, I don't think it's an interesting feature in war.

[Legatus]

 

Not all the Legion was at the Iron Cage, seeing as how it states afterwards the Imperial Fists sat back and let their successors do the heavy loading, so at least two chapters worth weren't present.

My IF Index Astartes article describes in differently: 

 

"Cleansed by their sacrifice [in the Iron Cage Campaign], the Imperial Fists immediately began their reorganisation. For the next two decades they went into retreat, their successor Chapters taking to the field in their stead. (...)

 

The New Imperium

Early in their reorganisation, Space Marines from the Imperial Fists departed to found the Black Templars and the Crimson Fists."

(Index Astartes Imperial Fists, 'Index Astartes II', p. 14)

 

So the Black Templars and the Crimson Fists were founded during the Imperial Fists Legion's reorganisation, which happened after the Iron Cage incident. 

[Hyaenidae]

K, that's how I remebered it.

[Marshal Rohr]

It's also confirmed in Blood and Fire. Sigismund broke off from the VII Legion in orbit above Sebastus IV

[Hyaenidae]

Which leaves the Excoriators and the Crimson Fists, which I'm assuming came to be from the ashes of the Cage itself.

[Emperor's Furor]

The way I interpreted it was that he cut off the chapters before the Iron Cage, for example the Crimson Fists were made up of the newer members of the Legion and the Black Templars the most zealous, the Excoriators were made up from the forces that man the wall day and night and never gave up. and what was left was a hardcore, stalwart, over number Imperial Fists Chapter that he fed to the grinder in the Iron Cage. 

 

So much so that there wasn't enough for a chapter left and so had to recuperate over the next two decades and when they finally emerged it was a chapter second to none but the Ultramarines.

[High MarshalGR]

 

 

My bad, not trying to turn it into a what if scenario. The Iron Cage was a worst case event anyway, as Dorn and his sons went into a known trap willingly. The Siege of Terra, I feel, is a far better gauge of both legions.

 

In the end, I feel that I would call on the Fists to hold a wall, and the IW's to take it down. In the end, a siege leads to only one end without outside intervention: a burning fortress, and a broken victor. One on one, both Legions would grind each other to dust and ash. There is no one who is better, as they are equal in killing.

 

See, for me they aren't. I do like Perturabo and dislike his treatment by his brothers and the constant not being recognised for his good work, the constant sieges and garrison duties which wore them out (his fault was taking those tiring tasks without resentment), but there is something the IW lack when they  are compared with the IF. This is the heart. IF do what they do with their heart in it, while the IW do it with cold reasoning. For me this is a huge difference because I value the heart of the IF more than I do the cold approach of the IW. It is efficient, but it doesn't feel the same. Not really much of an equilizer break, merely a feeling.

Thing is, when heart and "feelings" lead you into big fat traps where everyone dies, I don't think it's an interesting feature in war.

 

I get the logic behind this, but not necessarily. Stupidity takes you there. The power of heart =//= go stupid. Anyway, it doesn't "lead" you into the trap, you go in willingly (in the case of Iron Cage at the very least because it was known it would be a trap anyway).

The other side of the moon is that your feelings drive you to victories impossible. The balance between the 2 which defined IF is what made them so well rounded (don't forget the careful planning and supreme tactics Dorn used with his stratigical mind).

 

Also, it's kinda presented as an even fight in 40k so I don't necessarily count one as being above the other since the fluff doesn't support this. What it does support though, is the versatility and complexity of the IF as a legion which broke off so differently. I think very few legions could produce Succesor chapters so different to one another.

[Hyaenidae]

The way I interpreted it was that he cut off the chapters before the Iron Cage, for example the Crimson Fists were made up of the newer members of the Legion and the Black Templars the most zealous, the Excoriators were made up from the forces that man the wall day and night and never gave up. and what was left was a hardcore, stalwart, over number Imperial Fists Chapter that he fed to the grinder in the Iron Cage. 

 

So much so that there wasn't enough for a chapter left and so had to recuperate over the next two decades and when they finally emerged it was a chapter second to none but the Ultramarines.

 

I've always taken it as the entire Legion of surviving Imperial Fists Charged headlong into the Cage during the end of the Scouring, and barely walked out. They divided, the Imperial Fists absorbing the worst of the losses as a symbol of accepting blame of a potential tragedy, and their successors began to wage war seperately as the Fists limped back to the Phalanx and begun healing.

 

Sounds more logical, and more epic, when it's Legion against Legion. A thousand Marines, even with a Primarch at their side, would not have made it out of a trap designed and manned by a Legion of siege engineers, who had their own Primarch there as well.

[Emperor's Furor]

Ok, I'll go with that :)

[Hyaenidae]

Rock on, brother.

[GhostMalone]

I think due to the lightning tower audio drama the fact that dorn simulates with the sons of Horus world eaters death guard or was it night lords? and iron warriors show that he's aware perturabo is one of the biggest threats. The imperial fists have a nobility to them but the iron warriors have what it takes and will by whatever means necessary "take it down"

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

The way I interpreted it was that he cut off the chapters before the Iron Cage, for example the Crimson Fists were made up of the newer members of the Legion and the Black Templars the most zealous, the Excoriators were made up from the forces that man the wall day and night and never gave up. and what was left was a hardcore, stalwart, over number Imperial Fists Chapter that he fed to the grinder in the Iron Cage.

 

So much so that there wasn't enough for a chapter left and so had to recuperate over the next two decades and when they finally emerged it was a chapter second to none but the Ultramarines.

I've always taken it as the entire Legion of surviving Imperial Fists Charged headlong into the Cage during the end of the Scouring, and barely walked out. They divided, the Imperial Fists absorbing the worst of the losses as a symbol of accepting blame of a potential tragedy, and their successors began to wage war seperately as the Fists limped back to the Phalanx and begun healing.

 

Sounds more logical, and more epic, when it's Legion against Legion. A thousand Marines, even with a Primarch at their side, would not have made it out of a trap designed and manned by a Legion of siege engineers, who had their own Primarch there as well.

This is honestly how I took it as well. The entire Legion went into the pain glove to emerge, while not whole, anew.

[Hyaenidae]

I think due to the lightning tower audio drama the fact that dorn simulates with the sons of Horus world eaters death guard or was it night lords? and iron warriors show that he's aware perturabo is one of the biggest threats. The imperial fists have a nobility to them but the iron warriors have what it takes and will by whatever means necessary "take it down"

 

Eh, kinda.

 

Imperial Fists are the knights templar, swords clenched against brows in salute. In battle, they are inspiring, honourable, and lionhearted. Golden armoured, shielded. Always forward, never a step back.

 

Iron Warriors are what's left of the same, after a million tragedies. Detached and soulless. A blade is a tool, an enemy is a problem to be "solved", an emotion is a distraction that can kill you. Victory is as hollow as the ten years of war that led to that point, as you stare behind you at a silent battlefield choked with the bodies of friend and foe.

[High MarshalGR]

I think due to the lightning tower audio drama the fact that dorn simulates with the sons of Horus world eaters death guard or was it night lords? and iron warriors show that he's aware perturabo is one of the biggest threats. The imperial fists have a nobility to them but the iron warriors have what it takes and will by whatever means necessary "take it down"

 

Perturabo has many traits I do like. His great power to be underestimated, his intelligence, his creativity which very few recognised... This part from 40k wiki describes many things I do like about him:

 

Source: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Perturabo

 

 

Though Perturabo had spent his entire life at the business end of a siege, digging trenches and razing cities, it was easy for his fellow Primarchs to forget he possessed a mind as advanced and genenhanced as any of his brothers. The Lord of Iron might not possess the Warp-lore of Magnus the Red or the war-craft of Horus, but being underestimated was one of his greatest weapons. Furthermore, he was gifted with an affinity for technology, and was able to debate the finer points of the most esoteric arts with the highest placed Adepts of the Mechanicum. Though Perturabo possessed a calculating mind well-suited to the highly technical aspects of siege warfare, he was not a simple journeyman, for he also possessed the soul of a craftsman.

Over the centuries, Perturabo had created a precisely ordered collection of genius to rival any work of Magnus orRoboute Guilliman. His inner sanctum contained a superb collection of precisely reconstructed stonework, multiple murals and painted works of art as well as hundreds of rolled parchments containing architectural wonders of his own design. Immense drawing desks bore architectural plans for grand pavilions, magnificent amphitheatres, complex industrial infrastructures, vast hives of habitation, impregnable citadels and ornate palaces to rival that of the mountain fastness of the Emperor Himself. No architect of Terra had ever envisaged structures of such grandeur, and no fantasy of design had thought to render such magical buildings into life. That they had sprung from the hand of the Lord of Iron should have surprised no one, but the idea that a being so mired in destruction was capable of sublime creation seemed beyond comprehension. One of Perturabo's most notable examples was the design of the amphitheatre used during the Council of Nikaea. Though it was eradicated from existence not long after the conclusion of council, it still caused him great shame. It had never been intended as a place of trial and censure, but an arena for mighty games of strength and skill. The use the Emperor had made of his creation shamed Perturabo.

Perturabo's genius was not only confined to the drawing board, for he had also crafted hundreds of delicately wrought machines, trinkets and gewgaws of such fine construction that it seemed impossible one so huge had modelled them. A silver lyre in the shape of a horse’s head, gilded eggs, fabulously wrought birdcages that would never again confine a living creature, and miniature war machines competed for space alongside automata of all shapes and description -- animal, mechanical, human and alien. Perturabo had created a host of clockwork automatons in the early days of the Great Crusade. He had crafted a golden lion that was to be presented to Lion El'Jonson, the master of the Dark Angels, but which had never been finished, a bronze horse that had been designed for a great centrepiece at Nikaea and never used and a celestial timepiece that Roboute Guilliman had mounted on the tallest tower of his Temple of Correction on Macragge.

Perturabo's inner sanctum was a treasure trove of wonders, miraculous creations and the most ancient history of Old Earth preserved in a hermetically sealed environment. None beyond the warriors of his Trident, his special triumvirate of counselors, knew of its existence, and that was just the way Perturabo liked it. The Lord of Iron was also able to speak multiple xenos languages, which included a number of dialects of the Eldar tongue as well as the proto-speech of guttural barks and grunts that comprised the Ork language.

[GhostMalone]

All honesty I never thought about the iron warriors till reading angel exterminatus, his feelings towards archeticture within his amphitheater was a soul touching moment, I saw they weren't just able to destroy, his vision for Olympia as a technological Greek society was breathtaking and I wish I wasn't building world eaters.

 

Working in civil construction and on a daily basis I'm tearing down nature and the past, it does kill me inside to know that what I then build in the exhausting place is devoid of anything of beauty or craftsmanship, perturabo deserved better than the arse end of the stick, imagine if he and dorn were as close as say vulkan and ferrus.

 

Horus would have been completely obliterated at terra