Conn Eremon Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 There is a book where Dorn expresses regret for the beauty he is forced to tear down for the sake of function, where he actually has to be led to the decision of doing it again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278437-the-best-siege-warfare-specialists-if-vs-iw/page/8/#findComment-3430973 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 There is a book where Dorn expresses regret for the beauty he is forced to tear down for the sake of function, where he actually has to be led to the decision of doing it again. That's in the Lightning Tower short story/audio drama. Interesting contrast with Perturabo's opinion in Angel Exterminatus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278437-the-best-siege-warfare-specialists-if-vs-iw/page/8/#findComment-3430983 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 There is a book where Dorn expresses regret for the beauty he is forced to tear down for the sake of function, where he actually has to be led to the decision of doing it again. Well still. If he was actually fortifying the palace, why would it take Horus turning Traitor to make Dorn go "Oh, I'm not doing enough. Start tearing down the artwork!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278437-the-best-siege-warfare-specialists-if-vs-iw/page/8/#findComment-3430986 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Aye. I honestly believe Dorn and Perturabo are more similar than either would like to believe. Sort of reminds me of Sandor Clegane, the book version. A man who, by all appearances, should have been a hero, a shining knight. But the system betrays him. He's dragged through all of his world's hypocrisies which changes him to his very core. When you hear him talk about his love of killing, of the contradictory nature of knighthood and nobility, to Arya and Sansa, you can see how he isn't just saying that to frighten them, but to warn them. And to convince himself. Edit: @Kol: uhm. It didn't? Not sure what you mean. Horus' betrayal made it a rapidly approaching necessity, but he wasn't just sitting on his thumbs before then. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278437-the-best-siege-warfare-specialists-if-vs-iw/page/8/#findComment-3430998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 I'd imagine there's a difference between building a fortification that in your heart of hearts you don't think will ever be attacked, and doing the same job knowing nine of the baddest dudes in the galaxy are riding in, and all Hell's coming with them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278437-the-best-siege-warfare-specialists-if-vs-iw/page/8/#findComment-3431011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 I don't know. I think I'm going insane or something. I'm still trying to get past why the Emperor whose goal, dream and happy place was a Humanity united through, bloodshed, death, destruction and persecution of everything that he didn't approve of(Hello political correctness) would not build a fortified Palace. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278437-the-best-siege-warfare-specialists-if-vs-iw/page/8/#findComment-3431012 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 He discovered an ancient artifact, like a mint condition larry bird basketball card. Alright dorn pull back your legion I need the biggest badest safe ever! (Larry bird was the emperor) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278437-the-best-siege-warfare-specialists-if-vs-iw/page/8/#findComment-3431017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 The budget? Seriously, even supreme god dictators have to look at the red ink/black ink ratio once in a while and after building twenty Legions plus the the Imperial Army and Navy cuts had to be made somewhere. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278437-the-best-siege-warfare-specialists-if-vs-iw/page/8/#findComment-3431021 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 From what I understand, he didn't. I seem to remember it being built for him. Not at his direction. After all, by then he was a bit busy leading the Great Crusade at the forefront. The Palace, at the time, was just a place for the pre-Administratum folk to do their thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278437-the-best-siege-warfare-specialists-if-vs-iw/page/8/#findComment-3431023 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Eh, who needs currency when your hiccups can cause continent-sized megastorms? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278437-the-best-siege-warfare-specialists-if-vs-iw/page/8/#findComment-3431077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 The emperor is currency! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278437-the-best-siege-warfare-specialists-if-vs-iw/page/8/#findComment-3431084 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinsanity Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 From what I understand, he didn't. I seem to remember it being built for him. Not at his direction. After all, by then he was a bit busy leading the Great Crusade at the forefront. The Palace, at the time, was just a place for the pre-Administratum folk to do their thing.ah, you're right... Ip until Ullanor, the Emp was out riding with the Crusade so there really wasn't any point fortifying the Palace. Once he appointed Horus as Warmaster and came back to Terra, I guess he figured his house better be protected now he was going to spend all his time there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278437-the-best-siege-warfare-specialists-if-vs-iw/page/8/#findComment-3431099 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 So the line of thinking was "I'm not there, so screw Terra"? And people supported this guy? No wonder people say Humanity is a herd species. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278437-the-best-siege-warfare-specialists-if-vs-iw/page/8/#findComment-3431110 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 But even so the warp portal was under the palace still and the damaged section was unrepaired, maybe the golden throne was a fail safe and that by ullanor the emperor couldn't risk any instability? Or he found something at ullanor or some tech he was looking for? Just throwing some theories Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278437-the-best-siege-warfare-specialists-if-vs-iw/page/8/#findComment-3431113 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 I'm not sure if not insisting the Palace be made into a drab, unappealing fortress means "screw Terra." And besides, not being a bunker-castle doesn't mean undefended. The White House is very well-protected (Hollywood's opinions aside) and looks like nothing more than a way too brightly painted mansion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278437-the-best-siege-warfare-specialists-if-vs-iw/page/8/#findComment-3431114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
High MarshalGR Posted August 22, 2013 Author Share Posted August 22, 2013 I know, not the best of examples, but it does somewhat express my point. Look at Angron, for example. He never swore fealthy to the Emperor (the E teleported him off planet, then dumped him on a Warhounds ship and asked that they deal with him). In a way, I guess he actually just fought for the sake of it. He never broke any vows, just changed his alegiance. Now regarding Horus; sure he betrayed Horus the Emperor, but who betrayed who first? In his (twisted) mind, the Emperor had already betrayed them, had already dismissed the Astartes and Primarchs, was already looking at the Post-Crusade Imperium, a time when humanity would no longer need Space Marines, who might end up being disbanded (and culled?) like the Thunder Warriors had previously been. So, who betrayed who? This reminds me of Jaime Lanister in the GoT series, specifically a speach he gives in the TV series season 2; he mentions all the vows he's had to make (protect the king, protect the innocent, etc...) and the impossibilities this put him into (when the king turns mad and murders the innocent). In this case, Horus was in a similar boat; he could either remain loyal to the Emperor and break the vows he'd made to his sons by eventually seeing them dead, or betray his father and side with his sons. As *most* parents would tell you, it's usually a lot easier to let ones parents go then it is to abandon one's children. +Edit : oups, corrected an error above... I do understand in Angron's case, and judging by the end of the story I believe the best choice for him would be to let him die and let the awesome War Hounds remain the honourable warriors (and the awesome Legion) they were before they were turned into Nails-slaves. But that opinion comes from me not thinking as a father does. Also, the Emperor was having an important project at hand which he couldn't reveal for a really good reason and also the SM would end securing the Imperium as a non-Primarch correctly foresaw without the aid of a superhuman brain (Sigismund) so they would always be required. The council of Terra, the whole "let people rule people" put another nail in the already frustrated baby called Horus and he broke. Also, Thunder Warriors weren't the most innocent warriors ever. They did too many nasty things if I recall correctly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278437-the-best-siege-warfare-specialists-if-vs-iw/page/8/#findComment-3431133 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 You do not compare Sandor Glegane and the whiny, middle child that is Perturabo. Primarily, because Perturabo had everything given to him, and Clegane always took scraps from his brother. Secondarily, because it insinuates Graham McNeill is even close to George RR Martin, who (at best) is a pulp fantasy writer, and McNeill is not even close to that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278437-the-best-siege-warfare-specialists-if-vs-iw/page/8/#findComment-3431137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 This is a bit of a rabbit trail, but weren't the Thousand Sons stationed on Terra for a while? Prospero Burns mentions them bringing the last holdouts on the homeworld to compliance during Kasper Hawsers lifetime, and Angel Exterminatus mentions the Emperor kept Magnus at Terra for a time because the Crimson King's foresight could pierce the future while the Emperor's was becoming shrouded. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278437-the-best-siege-warfare-specialists-if-vs-iw/page/8/#findComment-3431138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 No, the "screw Terra" was that the Emperor didn't bother trying to fortify the Palace until he decided to return to Terra. Usually if the throne isn't fortified, you can't exactly expect the surrounding countryside(in this case, a planet) isn't much better defended. And well, in a galaxy filled with unspeakable horrors, if fortifying the Palace was seen as a necessary measure, how defended could it have been before the fortifications? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278437-the-best-siege-warfare-specialists-if-vs-iw/page/8/#findComment-3431139 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 No, the "screw Terra" was that the Emperor didn't bother trying to fortify the Palace until he decided to return to Terra. Usually if the throne isn't fortified, you can't exactly expect the surrounding countryside(in this case, a planet) isn't much better defended. And well, in a galaxy filled with unspeakable horrors, if fortifying the Palace was seen as a necessary measure, how defended could it have been before the fortifications? Counterpoint: Considering they were right next door to Mars, the galaxy's biggest exporter of killer cyborg and walking war cathedrals I'd imagine Terra wasn't exactly underfunded just because big E wasn't in residence. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278437-the-best-siege-warfare-specialists-if-vs-iw/page/8/#findComment-3431144 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 A counterpoint to your counterpoint: Mars was taken out of the fight by a scrapcode. The AdMech civil war that followed was just a cherry on top. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278437-the-best-siege-warfare-specialists-if-vs-iw/page/8/#findComment-3431148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Ninjad by kol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278437-the-best-siege-warfare-specialists-if-vs-iw/page/8/#findComment-3431150 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 A counterpoint to your counterpoint: Mars was taken out of the fight by a scrapcode. The AdMech civil war that followed was just a cherry on top. I was talking about the Pre Heresy Red Planet. Also, do you have a source on the scrape thing? As I understood it, the bulk of the Mechanicum hierarchy was with Horus, and Know No Fear showed members of what would be the Dark Mechanicum having no trouble operating scrapcode tainted systems, indeed, they were said to relish the Chaotic data corruption. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278437-the-best-siege-warfare-specialists-if-vs-iw/page/8/#findComment-3431151 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Mechanicum a rep from Horus introduced the scrap code to the magos as they opened the locked tech vault it then spread like wildfire Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278437-the-best-siege-warfare-specialists-if-vs-iw/page/8/#findComment-3431162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Mechanicum by Graham McNeill. The Dark Mechanicus had to undergo a purge of its own. It did so by firing off a scrapcode into the forges. One of them went Chernobyl IIRC. The only forges left unaffected were those using the noosphere beta, which was like two I think. And then from there was one of the Titan Legio vs Titan Legio battles of the Heresy. But still, scrapcode is just vernacular for virus. And if all it takes is a scrapcode to screw the inner workings of the Red Planet, then anyone who believes in cyber warfare(something I'm surprised we don't see much of, all things considering) can do a real number and then just waltz in and bomb the Titans to dust. And then Brothers, onward! Onward to Terra! Oh, and since I assume we're talking pre-Ullanor/Emperor's return, it would also mean that there wouldn't be a noosphere. It would be Glorious Chaos! EDIT: I need to stop taking so long to type up my posts. I keep getting ninja'd. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278437-the-best-siege-warfare-specialists-if-vs-iw/page/8/#findComment-3431164 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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