The "best" siege warfare specialists: IF vs IW

[Conn Eremon]

No, the "screw Terra" was that the Emperor didn't bother trying to fortify the Palace until he decided to return to Terra. Usually if the throne isn't fortified, you can't exactly expect the surrounding countryside(in this case, a planet) isn't much better defended. And well, in a galaxy filled with unspeakable horrors, if fortifying the Palace was seen as a necessary measure, how defended could it have been before the fortifications?

As fortified as a symbol needed to be. That's all it was. A symbol of the Imperium. Titanic, beautiful, ornate, defiant. Relatively unprotected by itself, maybe. But it wasn't by itself. It sat on the most defended world in the most defended system in the most defended sub-sector and so forth and so forth. Then the Emperor returned. It stopped being just a symbol. Now it has a more important function, as the seat of power, once roaming around the galaxy. It needs to stop being nothing more than a thing of beauty. Now it needs to be a fortress, as well. But then the unthinkable happens. The Throne was never in danger, until now. Now the Imperium turns on itself and nowhere is safe. Now no other thoughts can go through their minds but to make the place as inviolable as possible, and hope.

[GhostMalone]

Considering that it was directly imputed to the heart of the main forgeworld and it's main forge is the main reason It spread to all the forges such as chroms, iirc most forges were never truly with the big e they felt he was a false prophet. And because the fab general bent his knee the rest did.

 

Iirc also kalbor-Hal had to directly allow the defences to fall for the scrap code to spread

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, I guess I just figure that someone who has made it a point to kill(or, in the case of the Last Preacher, let die) every single person who disagrees with to only use symbols of authoritian power, not make a pretty Palace.

 

Considering that it was directly imputed to the heart of the main forgeworld and it's main forge is the main reason It spread to all the forges such as chroms, iirc most forges were never truly with the big e they felt he was a false prophet. And because the fab general bent his knee the rest did.

Iirc also kalbor-Hal had to directly allow the defences to fall for the scrap code to spread

Ah, true enough. But still, it was scrapcode. Wasn't even a dedicated virus, just junk data. Imagine what would happen if the Shriek managed to blast its way in, a true dedicated virus, like one of those Hunter-Killer programs talked about in Dark Adeptus.

[GhostMalone]

 

EDIT: I need to stop taking so long to type up my posts. I keep getting ninja'd.

 

Sorry kol

[GhostMalone]

I think it was more like a demonic code then just scrap, I see it like a formula that shouldn't have an answer or work yet is both real correct yet false.

 

Sort of like a severe calculus headache that you know won't work but it's impossible to prove that.

 

 

As for the shriek it was one of the best bits of writing by ADB ever and was cleverly explained and detailed, and as for the hunter killer program's Iirc they were demonic essences in the system

[Kol Saresk]

But the process behind it is still the same. In the case of the hunter-killers, they were like an anti-virus system that actively targeted threats. Because they were warp-infused they were able to possess specially made weapon-servitors to hunt down material threats. But still, if something with as little computer know as a daemon can get screwy with it, imagine what someone who is truly tech-savvy can do?

 

A virus is a virus. All the warp-daemon does it make it sentient. In 40K, all you need for that is a machine spirit.

[GhostMalone]

Ill accept that, I can't think of a counterpoint as I think you summed it up nicely

 

:D

 

Well done

[Wade Garrett]

Saying the scrapcode the Chaos Forces use is "just a virus" is like saying the Heldrake is just a big bird. I haven't read Mechanicum, but KNF has the Word Bearer cultist troops performing mass sacrifices to get the stuff flowing through Calth's grid. I'd imagine guarding against that is a bit trickier than just plugging in Norton Antivirus.

 

Also, the infiltration of Mars was helped by the guy in charge of everything on Mars assisting them in hacking the system. It's a lot easier to get into the FBI's secret databases if the Director himself is walking you through the security.

[Kol Saresk]

True. But when the Director of the FBI walks you through and all you do is jump onto the OS and start randomly adding, deleting and rearranging code with no purpose, well you can't say much about it. But then if you take someone with the know-how of the FBI's cyber-division times Stephen Hawkings(after all, most of the xenos who have the capacity to indulge in cyber-warfare have had computers longer than we've had robes, dresses and tunics) or is a sentient malign being who is able to possess data and then point them at cyber defenses that are meant to keep people who are below the FBI's hacker-radar out, well then the dilemma begins to rise. The defenses might hold, they might not.

[GhostMalone]

We're talking mars right? And demonic code? In the 31st millennium.

 

 

I think a las rifle has more tech then a 21st century computer system.

 

Theoretically your arguementbis sound but the fab general allowed every forge to be infected other than those on the noosesphere.

 

It's like he had the master key and introduced a self replicating constantly changing and adapting super virus.

 

I feel we can't use modern day examples considering the technological differences we are dealing with

[Conn Eremon]

Well, that's something that creeps up everywhere in 40k. Something new is shown to us, because we don't want to keep reading the exact same story over and over again. Eventually, one of these ideas is made more powerful than 40k is already prepared for, and is yet only mentioned in that one source. Kind of like how if most battles involving them have them slain, why then are Avatars seen as anything remotely powerful? By assuming that what we have seen are the rare exceptions, by assuming that there must be countless other battles with them triumphant. Same with. the scrapcode. We see it used to outstanding success. Why is it not used more often, when we have seen nothing to defend against it? By assuming that we simply aren't seeing what defends against it. After all, the Mechanicum isn't quite as stagnate as we are sometimes led to believe. We can assume that some way was found to counter-act it. To stop it in its tracks. We assume that the cyber-warfare rages on, it's just not seen and has become a stalemate.

 

Yes, these are assumptions to fix potential oversights, but not everything can be written down for us. Sometimes we have to make assumptions in order to make connections.

[Kol Saresk]

Could it also be there is a price to using it? IIRC, the forge that went Chernobyl was one the DarkMech forges. I don't recall any DarkMech priests leaving Calth alive either. And even the Shriek had a severe drain on the Covenant of Blood, and it wasn't even warp-infused. Maybe the cyber-warfare has advanced to the point that there are material casualties, even if those casualties are just machines.

[GhostMalone]

Well the noosesphere was the counter to the scrap code, sort of an advanced firewall that wasn't controlled by the fab general it was an invention of one of the adepts and was then iirc implemented to try purge the scrap code,

 

I understand your point and it's valid and correct, just in this instance mechanicum set up the scenario and can be progressed in the future. The admech back then were more free with innovation compared to 40k admech, they don't necessarily invent they just make variations.

 

In mechanicum there was an item that wasn't working and the main female in it literally created something that never exsisted to complete the machine, it was a great story and I feel if you haven't read it you should

[GhostMalone]

@kol- yes I'm sure it was dark mech that went up in a shroom cloud, I also remember that the IF arrived at one of the forges about to fall to retrieve all the maximus power armour and MKvi they could carry. Then something along the lines of hold on we can't help currently but we will do what we can, the pacification of mars still has to come and iirc horus launches the attack on terra from mars

[Fire Golem]

I think certain people in this thread should be writers...

Just putting my viewpoint forward, I always imagined IF to be the siege holders, and IW to be better at breaking down the walls and storming the castle...

 

Obviously that's very simplified but that's just the way I viewed it. Until I read Angel Exterminatus and saw a whole new side to Perturabo and the IW. Am I right in thinking the trailers actually broke into the palace on terra? But the emp teleported away to Horus battle barge? How much of that was down to the IW and how much was just sheer weight of numbers/extra chaos help etc

 

I think there's too many moving parts to categorically say one is better than the other. I'd probably get the IW in if I was ever holding a fort though...

[Emperor's Furor]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Salamanders were pretty apt at sieges, I mean they like a lot of flamers and melta weapons, key weapons when it comes to assaulting a bastion.