The Red Thirst Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 Iv had Lost Sons for a while now and just picked up on something i didnt before When Rubio offers Arkad and the other Blood Angels stationed on Baal to become agents of the sigilite, he says this:Arkad: And now you are Malcadors Agent? Rubio: One of many. Some of us legionaries, from both sides of the insurrection. Others mortal and... otherwise" Is this a reference to the Perpetuals? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278455-lost-sons/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adra'Melek Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 That (without any further context) certainly suggests it. But none that I'm aware of have been seen yet Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278455-lost-sons/#findComment-3423259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 Technically, the Astartes are no longer mortal, so it could be a reference to the loyal members of now-traitorous legions. Also, I have a suspicion that there is a Thunder Warrior amongst the sigilites' minions.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278455-lost-sons/#findComment-3423260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 Technically, the Astartes are no longer mortal, so it could be a reference to the loyal members of now-traitorous legions. Also, I have a suspicion that there is a Thunder Warrior amongst the sigilites' minions.... If the quote is accurate, since it says "We have legionnaires from both sides, mortals and otherwise", wouldn't it be redundant for the "otherwise" to refer to the Traitor-Loyalists? EDIT: I don't mean to come across as attacking. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278455-lost-sons/#findComment-3423486 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 Maybe they have Eldar or other aliens working for them to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278455-lost-sons/#findComment-3423498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 Technically, the Astartes are no longer mortal, so it could be a reference to the loyal members of now-traitorous legions. Also, I have a suspicion that there is a Thunder Warrior amongst the sigilites' minions.... If the quote is accurate, since it says "We have legionnaires from both sides, mortals and otherwise", wouldn't it be redundant for the "otherwise" to refer to the Traitor-Loyalists? EDIT: I don't mean to come across as attacking. Possibly, but not necessarily. Discussing traitors in the ranks could be a pretty touchy subject, so he may be stating his answer as so in an effort to be politically correct, while still maintaining a mentality that he doesn't trust them worth a crap. Could be the mechanicus too, or even (Throne help us) an assisting Eldar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278455-lost-sons/#findComment-3423728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 Ah okay. Fair enough. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278455-lost-sons/#findComment-3423736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adra'Melek Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 If that "and otherwise" is supposed to refer to Astartes and the quote is right it's one of the weirdest sentence structures I've seen (certainly from a pro-author). To me (and my grasp of proper English isn't my strongest suit) the "others" means they're not Legionaries. So we have some non-Legion, non-mortals. They may be Custodes, may be Thunder Warriors (did they live longer or shorter than 'mortals'?), may be Eldar or something else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278455-lost-sons/#findComment-3424385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trankz Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 I think he refers to humans (peerpetuals or not). If I remember correctly in The Sigillite Audiobook he makes use of humans and in the end he invites a human to work for him But, personaly, I like to think he refers to perpetuals and alien psyckers. Never thinked about Thunder Warriors. Anyone have any clue that indicate this? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278455-lost-sons/#findComment-3424432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 Demonhosts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278455-lost-sons/#findComment-3426004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Angel Scout Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 Could be jokero....or demiurge....that's the name for squats these days isn't it? Possibly more of a subtle hint towards Assasins, due to Rubio being a "former" legionnaire with a particular blue plate, who hold honour and courage as core principles, now exposed to some of Malcador's resources and abilities, will be aware of their tactical purpose, yet disapproving of their need or deployment, similar to the contempt Dorn displays in Nemesis of killing from the shadows. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278455-lost-sons/#findComment-3426093 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carach Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 its heavily alluded to in several places now that the sigilite himself is a perpetual, among a group of perpetuals. so yea, they could very well be the 'otherwise' also could just be a shorter way of stating they got some allies rather than listing off everything lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278455-lost-sons/#findComment-3426160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Entei Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 From what I've seen there's no evidence that all the perpetuals(besides emps) work for the same faction or cause. For example Damon Prytanis refers to Grammaticus as a friend, but also an idiot. Prytanis may well be in league with Malcador. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278455-lost-sons/#findComment-3426176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 Psykers? It would still be a little taboo at the time, so "otherwise" seems like an apt term. Though perpetuals sounds good as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278455-lost-sons/#findComment-3426190 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 But why would it be thrownin with "mortals ot otherwise?" Usually they're just referred to as witches and such, not "We have Astartes, mortals..... And otherwise?". Besides, if Fear to Tread was anything to go buy, the Blood Angels are at least amicable to their former Librarians. Except for the Wardens. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278455-lost-sons/#findComment-3426371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Entei Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 Tylos Rubio is a psyker, why would he refer to his own kind as something else than legionnaire or mortal? Have I missed something and does 'mortals' exclude psykers? The perpetuals are not mortals, therefore they make the most sense to me, if he doesn't refer to some kind of artificial intelligence/eldar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278455-lost-sons/#findComment-3426421 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronotonic Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 it just makes more sense that is one of the Emperors own actual children that are spread out throughout the universe that the Legionares run across from time to time The Alpha Legion and I want to say John being the bigger one...the other two in the one were the Word Bearers attack the Ultramarines homeworlds Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278455-lost-sons/#findComment-3426425 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 Are the sensei still part of the fluff? I mean, from everything I've read of the Perpetuals, they seem artificial in nature, not natural. And not all of them are psykers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278455-lost-sons/#findComment-3426437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Scorpions Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 uh what are perpetuals again? Ive read all the print books..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278455-lost-sons/#findComment-3426462 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 Perpetuals seem to be some kind of mortals. For the most part, it seems to be that anyone who is reincarnated automatically becomes a perpetual, if John Grammaticus and Cyrene are anything to go by. If they can be killed, it has not yet been shown how. They are first introduced in Legion by Dan Abnett and have since been seen in Know No fear, Betrayer, Mark of Calth and Vulkan Lives(to my knowledge). There are rumors(unless someone can point me to a confirmed source[ie A D-B, Dan Abnett, the BL Blog or another author/editor/employee who is unafraid of sharing his name]) that at least one Perpetual will make an appearance in the upcoming Unremembered Empire. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278455-lost-sons/#findComment-3426466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 uh what are perpetuals again? Ive read all the print books..... I think the perpetuals are the Slann aka "the OLD ones". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278455-lost-sons/#findComment-3426772 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 uh what are perpetuals again? Ive read all the print books..... I think the perpetuals are the Slann aka "the OLD ones". No, Grammaticus refers to himself as a traitor to his own race, when talking about his involvement with the Cabal in relation to mankind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278455-lost-sons/#findComment-3426792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Entei Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 Grammaticus isn't a true perpetual, xenos intervention made him immortal, as he says in Know No Fear. One goal all the perpetuals seem to have in common is the destruction of Chaos. It's heavily implied that the Emperor is a perpetual, and possibly Malcador. It isn't explained under which circumstances the perpetuals reincarnate when they die, but I have a hard time believing they are artificial. Cyrene becomes a perpetual by being resurrected with the power of the warp. If I had to guess I think they are originally humans, who become some kind of free-willed daemons when they die. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278455-lost-sons/#findComment-3426943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 Cyrene was made a perpetual by Erebus intervention. It seems that all it takes is just one ressurection and then BAM! You're stuck with it. Especially since in Vulkan Lives, Grammaticus is killed by a stray bolter shell but still revives without xenos intervention. i wonder if Oll Persson was ever Lazarus... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278455-lost-sons/#findComment-3427002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adra'Melek Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 The Perpetuals are just a rehash of the Sensei aren't they? The Sensei were the Emperors children from through the ages. They were blanks, immortal and could directly access warp energy. They didn't know who they were and the Illuminati (who also seem to have disappeared) were collecting them. I was reading Realms of Chaos and was thinking about updating the rules for Sensei and Renegade Warbands. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278455-lost-sons/#findComment-3427016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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