New SM and BA

[Morticon]

I posted this elsewhere, and wanted to share here too.  It was a response to people voicing concern over certain Chapters looking stronger than others in the new codex.  I wanted to share how I personally view the Marine discussion and the new rules in relation to both BA, and in relation to Codex: Marine on Codex: Marine discussions.

 

 

 

" People seem to be investing so much stock in the colour of the marines (and I think this is a bit of a 3rd/4th ed throwback) as the definitive separator and definer of rules- "Theyre Blue therefore must have these rules! Those are Red theefore must have those rules!" -

 

6th seems so much more fluid than that. UM traits dont necessarily need to be "UM" and "UM" exclusively and specifically - theyre a set of Codex Astartes rules that any chapter wishing to follow the codex astartes can field.  

The way I see it is the book is a guideline of what the codex astartes offers as options and alternatives for our gaming experience.  Heck, I actually feel that way about all "Battle Brother" marine dexs to be honest.

 

Im of the opinion that this divisionary attitude, that harks back to the days of 4th where GW made the mistake of requesting hobbiests paint their army the way GW wanted them to paint them in order to play, is just silly.  

 

5th attempted, quite strongly, to change that - and is still fighting the battle against what seems to be an entrenched distrust of other rules and other paint schemes.  I get that people have an affinity towards a chapter, I get that people want to invest their time and efforts into armies and factions and chapters, and I get that there't that innate desire for "our" team to get options that make us happy, but it seems so counter productive and limiting to cut out what is essentially a barrage of new options available to us as gamers and hobbiests.  

 

The way I see it, is we - and I say "we" as a very die-hard BA player (you lot know this)- are getting a new codex jam packed with whatever rules we want to take for the chapter we wish to use.  Binding ourselves to old flags and colours cannot be the smart and productive thing to do to enrich our hobby experience. 

 

So my advice to those that are a bit miffed, despondent or feel a little bit cheated (either from the BA group, or from a marine group that plays a specific chapter) - consider looking at the dex as a set of suggestions of traits and gaming styles and options, not a strict set of rules for specific chapters. If you look at it that way, suddenly you have the most incredible amount of variety available to you and the game becomes super fun.

 

The drawback to "Counts As"  is that it allows the WAAC gamers to theme how they wish to squeeze every last drop of power out of the dex, but the positive result is that every other gamer just sees the floodgate of options open to them.  

 

6th Edition has allowed me, through allies and style, to now ride this wave along with all other power armour players - and for that I'm really excited!"

 

 

Happy gaming :D

 

Feel free to discuss how you want to incorporate the new stuff into your BA and vice versa.

[Memento Of Prospero]

I'll be picking it up simply because of the options I will get. I love the look of blood angels, so I will just be converting the unit in tje same fashion as I always have, while being able to play whatever army style I want in a pinch. The days of being a diehard elitist in this game are over. I for one will not miss them.

[Jønke]

Im on the same page as you guys. Booth becuse as the new marine codexes is poppoing out big parts of ours are getting crappy'er and crappy'er. Also you shouldn be required to paint 3-4 different marine armies just becuse you wanna try out different lists. Its hard enought to get one army fully paintet.

 

Personally im working on a BA 1st Company force based on the DA codex becuse my love for terminators and blood angels are only matched by my hate for cross-dresser marines.

[Midnightmare]

As long as I know what I am playing with and against, everything is fair game. Personly I won't be painting any allies as anything other than my chapter as the cynic in me thinks allies will be gone in the 7th edition leaving everybody with half armies.....

 

OT there are loads of nice new kits, the grav rules look pretty good and the AA tanks look the shiz. Tigarius looks a beast, so probably him or cheap libby with re-rolling lascannon Tacs and an AA tank. So. Much. Shiny. Options.

[Azatoth]

You have to understand one basic rule of GW publications:

 

They do not care about balance!!

 

It has been stated repeatedly by them, that they do not care about tournaments, and balance, so stop expecting it. In the end it will spare you a lot of frustation.

GW wants to sells miniatures, and they do this by obvious and less obvious changes in the rules as well as in the different codices. Obviously new models get players to buy them. But less obviously making foor troops cheaper, or making unit sizes bigger also supports selling, because players fill up their armies.

Do not expect any kind of balance by them.

[Morticon]

Not really a question or a discussion on balance at all- mainly about the use of other marines in the BA dex and vice versa.

[marine7312000]

I fully agree with you. The simple fact that an updated BA dex is probably over a year away gives me all the reason I need to play as a separate army. That and 15 years of only BA means it's time to paint something other than red and black.

[deathspectersgt7]

Brother Morticon  I never would use a other dex for my Marines never  used special  charcters as is I think this is cheesey I always played straight up codex .Made up my own CM,CPT,Libbie and such from the general list.And did well in games.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Given that I'm just about 'done' (whatever that means) building and putting together my Blood Angels, C:SM's impact will probably be small and limited to switching my Captain to a SM one and, because I'm unwilling to pour more money into an army I consider 'done', taking Tactical Squads from C:SM if they turn out along the lines of DA tacticals, ie; cheaper and able to take a special/heavy weapon in five-man squads, instead of BA.

 

I can't do a wholesale switch, I love Death Company way too much.  

 

On the other hand, I could take my whole list from C:SM, still have them painted red (sorry Mort) and have Astorath, my two DC squads, two Assault Squads and my SG and Vanguard squads as BA allies since they're the only things that (I doubt) will be able to be as ably represented by C:SM as they are by C:BA. 

[Midnightmare]

I think I will always have to use C:BA at least for my primary detatchment, but thats just me. I fully understand people not wanting to do so.

[SnorriSnorrison]

While I do see the stuff about 'getting a new codex', I can't say that C:SM allows us to represent the Blood Angels like they should be. Sure, we get cheaper tacticals, and some may argue that the 'assault' Chapter Tactic or the Raven Guard trait might suit us well, but in the end, you're playing over-estimated Assault Marines we could run as troops, not to mention the loss of all the iconic Blood Angels units such as Baals, DC Dreads, Furiosos, Death Company, and our special characters. Even though I wouldn't mind to get some artificer armour on my Blood Angels Captain.

 

I don't mind the new codex at all. Before our 5th edition codex, I'd probably be upset because of the outrageous point costs of the .pdf codex, or the lack of updates when the 5th edition marine codex hit. Now, I'm quite satisfied with our own codex, so I'm not concerned about what the C:SM guys get and what they don't get. Actually, I'm quite glad we don't have the option of using the Centurions or the new Vanguards(see other topic for full argument). Even the anti flyer tanks don't impress me that much, I must say.


Nah, I'm fine with our C:BA. I don't think I'll ever switch, but as Midnight Runner said, to a certain extent I can understand people who'd like to try something new or different.


Snorri

[Kem]

yes, it looks like all new SM units are downright poor

and it looks like this is still and UM codex after all, with some silly weak additions.

[Zynk Kaladin]

I love my assault marines as troops albeit overpriced and under-performing.  I won't be switching over based on that principle alone and will patiently wait for an updated C:BA.

 

However, I don't see why anyone can't pick up the newest C:SM rules and "Rock the Red!" if they so choose.  Hell, it may feed the fires of his/her army's soul.

[DarkMark]

I think people should stop thinking as if it were switching, and instead view it as being given new tools to work with. Sometimes you'll need you're old trusty hammer, aka the BA codex, but don't decry finding a new screwdriver or saw in your toolbox now! Take the right tools for the job.

Chances are that if you're a BA player you like the whole PA package. Some will argue that if you want to take choices from another codex you should have gone with that one: that reality went the way of the Dodo. Satisfy the Allies Matrix and WYSIWYG, and the world is your oyster.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

While I do see the stuff about 'getting a new codex', I can't say that C:SM allows us to represent the Blood Angels like they should be. Sure, we get cheaper tacticals, and some may argue that the 'assault' Chapter Tactic or the Raven Guard trait might suit us well, but in the end, you're playing over-estimated Assault Marines we could run as troops, not to mention the loss of all the iconic Blood Angels units such as Baals, DC Dreads, Furiosos, Death Company, and our special characters. Even though I wouldn't mind to get some artificer armour on my Blood Angels Captain.

 

Allies. 

 

-------------------------------------------

 

I almost certainly won't import my C:BA list into C:SM, primarily because I just don't care enough. I consider my BA 'done' when it comes to buying and a wholesale import to C:SM will probably necessitate buying new units, which I don't want to do. I already have 6k points that I'll likely never field in one go, I want to work on something that isn't Space Marines now. 

 

However, BA Captains not having access to Artificer Armour or Glaives is a glaring oversight and one that can (probably) be fixed by a SM Captain with a Relic Blade. And if that means I have to take cheaper Tacticals and the AA Razorback to make it legal, well hey.  

[Boomkapow]

Agree with RIL. They will be allies for me. As I said in a previous post, I would die without Baal Preds and Fragiosos.

[Zynk Kaladin]

The captain option for an allied detachment sounds like a really nifty idea.  I'm assuming they still get to take jump packs?  A JP, artificer armor, relic blade captain would look pretty neat model-wise and would do well with our assault marines.  Then you can get a squad of count-as ultramarine lascannon/plasmagun tacticals with the Tactical Doctrine to re-roll failed to-hit rolls.  That would make a great home-field scoring unit with a long range punch option.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Oooh... even better:

 

Looking at the new 6th ed. rule rumors, my mind was toying with the idea of drop podded tacticals with the Tactical Doctrine.  Get this: rerolls to hit pretty much makes them almost as effective as sternguard for a much cheaper price... and they score.  What I propose is this basic squad:

 

10 Tactical Marines (multimelta, melta, drop pod): ??? points (cheaper than last edition, too)

 

Basically you combat squad them out of the pod and can effectively melta 2 vehicles with this unit.  Dealing with hordes?  No problem, re-rolling bolter shots is good enough! Run two squads of these tactical marines in an allied detachment with 3 of our podded fragiosos and you have a HELLA good drop pod list.

 

What Im thinking:

 

+1 Mephiston

 

+1 Fragioso (melta, grapple, pod)

+1 Fragioso (melta, grapple, pod)

+1 Fragioso (flamer, grapple, pod)

 

+10 Assault Marines (x2 melta)

+10 Assault Marines (x2 melta)

 

Ultra-Drop (Tactical Doctrine):

 

+1 Captain(JP, artificer armor, relic blade)

 

+10 Tacticals(melta, multimelta, pod)

+10 Tacticals(melta, multimelta, pod)

 

???? points

 

Basically Mephiston hides among an assault squad and the captain is attached to the other.  They fly across the board as the pods slam into the enemy's lines, effectively crippling them as early as possible.  I think I would change this list slightly by taking out a fragioso and replacing it with a JP priest.  A str 7 relic blade captain on the charge would be VERY tempting.  I could then get a podded ironclad dread from the Ultra-Drop Allies.

[Morticon]

Brother Morticon  I never would use a other dex for my Marines never  used special  charcters as is I think this is cheesey I always played straight up codex .Made up my own CM,CPT,Libbie and such from the general list.And did well in games.

 

I get that. I think a lot of people feel the way you do.  But one man's meat is another's poison, really.  I won the last SA nationals with BA, so its not really an issue of efficacy for me - rather the mind set behind dictating how other's should be playing for what seems to be outdated reasons.   

 

 

I think should stop thinking as if it were switching, and instead view it as being given new tools to work with. 

 

^ This! 

[deathspectersgt7]

I don't begrudge people using other dexs but when they put down NL for BA well I scratch my head and sigh.Why go I paint up a  Angels Sanguine army I can put down my Deathspectres and say today they are Blood angels.

[daryl]

I think its more of a cost issue.  Personally I love the BA, but I seriously can't afford to paint up a 2k army with options and do another 2k in generics so I don't hurt feelings.  The fluff and play style of the BA is outstanding, the best of any chapter IMHO. But I like to occasionally play as a codex chapter.  Its fun and when I finish it makes me appreciate all the unique aspects of playing a BA chapter.  Yes I have the option of fielding allies, but I really enjoy the sight of all my models having a unified paint scheme.  That allows me to get the most out of my allies list and still keep the same look.  Maybe my allies are just from another company.  

 

I have played at a local shop in CA and some of the guys were adamant that if you wanted to play BA, or DA or any other own codex chapter they had to be true to heraldry or an official successor.  Why? I don't mind feeding GW to keep my hobby alive.  They are a company that makes something I truly enjoy.   

 

I like the modeling aspect, its plastic/resin crack so I will be picking up more probably for life.  Who knows maybe letting a smurf army out on the gameboard under BA rules might make a convert.  Thats what pulled me from the BT, and I used to think they were truly epic.

[TheHarrower]

I was totally against using allies when 6th Edition launched, but that was a pretty knee jerk reaction and I've learned to get over it. I absolutely cannot wait unit Codex: Space Marines is released. I'm almost positive I'll be using an Allied detachment with the following:

 

Librarian

Tactical Squad

Scout Squad

Stalker or Hunter (depends on what gun I like better)

 

I might even include a Storm Talon. Of course they'll be painted red, but I'm not above using allies anymore. The benefits outweigh the negatives by far and give older codexes that need it (i.e. Blood Angels) added longevity. I'm all for honor and loyalty to my chapter, but I don't get what the big hang up is about using allies.

[Jpacka]

I'll preface this comment by saying I am a die hard BA player, I currently have around 10k worth of BA and intend to continue untill I can field a chapter. I don't play other armies or have any desire to do so, I do understand some people like more "variety". That said/////

 

I can't say I agree with this. For the following reasons....

 

To me it sounds like allot of armour envy. I know I was miffed a few years back when everyone and their little sister was coming up with a justifiable "reason" to use our codex to represent everything from a traitor or loyalist chapter all the way to CC specialist Tau enclaves.

 

I realise what it's like to play with outdated rules and be behind the power curve, and for some armies it's been allot worse than others. I just can't get past the loyalty aspect, like i said I love the fluff and the entire concept of space marines and will remain faithful to the chapter (or maybe one day legion Emperor willing) untill my duty ends.

 

The OP mentioned the WAAC gamers in his first post, you might not feel like it but your doing the same thing. You want more power for less points and are willing to paint your blue armor red to achieve it. I mean seriously how many People take Tau allies because they just really think they're cool and mesh so well with their UM, or how about a BA player taking some Necrons (since we're bro's and all). I was on DakkaDakka yesterday and read some Nid player saying he should have access to IG allies because it would accurately represent genestealer cult units (I'm sure it had nothing to do with wanting a medusa section, or Vendatta air cover).

 

I don't use allies but have nothing against them, but it seems I don't ever find anyone taking allies that are less effective than one of their own codex options (some going so far as to convert models and/or paint scheme to 'blend' with the primary detachment) which leads me to believe all they really want is the rules which again is WAAC or maybe WAAC (win at almost any cost)

 

The road to hell is paved with good intentions (and rationalizations) but I fear brothers if you tread this road in the end you'll be nothing more than an intergalactic whore. Stay true to the Emperor, Sanguinius, and the chapter.

 

The Emperor protects!

[Morticon]

I find the notion of " sucking it up"   and playing the hand you're dealt because we should stay loyal to a particular brand of marines in an imaginary universe in a hobby game to be odd and exceptionally misguided in terms of our enjoyment. 

 

GW know that their internal balance is inconsistent and has a tendency to get outdated quickly.  

With the advent of "counts as"  in 5th and allies in 6th, a lot of this was alleviated.  

 

I've said this in other places before - but I feel that our "pride" in the BA should be shown through our appreciation of BA lore, fluff and heraldry - not specifically adherence to rule sets that change every few years.  In the last 20 years what has changed the most with the BA? Last time I checked, they were still red, still had Sanguinius as their Primarch, still had the DC and still displayed the winged blood drop proudly - rules change all the time - even codex to codex.  

 

I got into the hobby reading that BA were "largely codex adherent" -with a sway towards certain tendencies-  yet whenever another SM dex came out, the representation of this " largely codex adherent"  aspect was so lacking.  Even MORE frustrating was the interdex inconsistencies with gear prices.  GW chose not to FAQ these things and do a living update- instead we have to wait years for an update.  It makes no sense in a game as dynamic as this but thats the situation we're in. 

 

Tying yourself to a set of rules because "thats what the sons of Sanguinius should do"  just seems like blind patriotism and unquestioning faith within a framework of a game or environment that doesnt require that sort of devotion on any level.  There's no benefit to it. The only thing it does is restrict you as a gamer and hobbyist.  And for me personally, I havent invested the money ive invested into this hobby to be limited.  

 

Just my 2cents -

 

 Mort. - The Happy Intergalactic Whore :D

[Crusader Bob]

I find myself agreeing with both Morticon and Jpacka. Is a tough argument, and personally my nose twirls a little when i see an army with colors and rules not "matching".

I tend to play the army i'm playing, BT rules for BT and BA rules for BA (my second one), good and bad.

But that's my choice, if my opponent chooses differently, more power to him (no pun intended).

 

I can see why expecially veteran players with a lot of years and painted models behind them might want to change up things without having to start a new army just for consistency, but at the same time i would receive better a player abiding to that consistency mentioned above.

I have broken some rules as well at times, my friends let me use Durandal dreads for my BT, it all boils down to live and let live at the end of the day.