Chaos Space Marines: Making The Best of a Bad Unit

[minionboy]

So if you weren't aware, my buddy Reece over at Front Line Gaming posted an article about just how much he hates the regular CSM troops.  This sentiment isn't exactly rare, as it seems that many people seem to really have a dislike for them...

 

I on the other hand have used 2 units of 10 in almost every game I've played since the new book came out, and I quite like them.  I honestly don't think I'm crazy, and I don't just like them because they're fluffy.  My friends and I play quite competitive games, generally with the hardest lists we can muster, and I have yet to be truly disappointed in my marines.  Am I nuts?  Am I a masochist?

 

The arguments against them generally revolve around loyalists having ATSKNF.  I agree that this rule has it's uses, but more often than not, I've found this rule to be a hinderance.  I've never had the experience, in all my games, of a lone character charging in, beating me in a challenge and running down the rest of the squad... Instead I've had plenty of experiences where a dedicated combat unit ends up butchering loyalist marines, then those marines don't get swept and instead keep the enemy squad (or Trygon) in combat, protecting them from shooting, for another round.  I really don't like ATSKNF and genuinely think it's overrated.

 

So, that said, how do I run my chaos marines?  2 units of 10 with 2 Plasma guns in a havoc rhino.  Cheap, gives me guns and a solid scoring unit for 217 points.  Does anyone else use regular marines in a competitive setting and actually enjoy them, or am I alone over here?  If so, how do you equip them?

[minigun762]

I think you're on the right track.

 

Outside of assault, LD10 (with VotLW) is good enough.

The real risk is losing combat and being swept.

 

The easiest ways to get around this are focus on staying out of combat and being a shooty squad or add Fearless to the squad by some means.

[Noctus Cornix]

I'm with you all the way on this one man. I generally run my standard marines two ways.

 

1. Bolter Marines with Two Plasmaguns and a Champion with a combi-plasma and meltabomb in a havoc rhino

 

2.Ultragrit marines with two Plasmaguns, VoLW, Mark of Slaanesh, Icon of Excess, and a Champion with a lightning claw and meltabomb in a havoc rhino

 

Either way I love my standard Chaos Marines because on a whole, they put in good work.

 

The lack of ATSKNF has never been a hindrance to me so far and I field atleast two squads every game.

[daboarder]

Best way to make them in my onpinion,

 

MoN, VoTLW, 2xPlams, (sometimes a claw on the champ) for 16 pts a pop you get a nice cheap T5 bolter boy, can go to ground if needed and you can get enough of them to put down good supporting fire while advancing.

 

Of course this used to be based upon the fact that marins paid 15-16 pts a model so you effectively got T5 for the loss of atsknf, now that marines are 14.....yeah CSM's are kinda dead.

[40kChrista]

I think it's folly to compare units like this, of course there's always something better... so either go play that or stop complaining about what you don't have.  

 

I think we've seen time and again that knowing your army and what it can do will win more games often than not.  Are CSM jack of all trades, they can be.  They can also fold SUPER fast if you don't pick your targets wisely.  Isn't that the trick?  Thinking in the field?  

 

Personally I've found ultragrit, MoK, IoW, can be a punishing support/assault unit in midfield.  (I've also had that same unit fail a Tank Shock and get destroyed because they had no where else to go)  Need more suppression for your Demons? Then 10 with 2 plasma and a MoN to be real annoying.  They can work, and it looks like people have success with them.  They have to be used well, not thrown into any situation and rage quit because they don't work.  

 

My biggest question is why is this article of Reece's is coming out now... 10 months after the codex dropped.  What happened? 

[Noctus Cornix]

Of course this used to be based upon the fact that marins paid 15-16 pts a model so you effectively got T5 for the loss of atsknf, now that marines are 14.....yeah CSM's are kinda dead.

 

They're dead because they're two points more expensive instead of one? I'm sorry but now that's just being utterly ridiculous. They're a solid, can get the job done, and can be tooled up and tailored to however you need. Complaining about a miniscule point different is just nitpicking.

[daboarder]

My numbers in the first one were wrong i'm afraid, I typed 15 instead of 16. So basically for a 10 man unit you are paying 20 pts more than a SM player, without chapter tactics, ATSKNF OR combat squads......Yeah so Naff

[Fibonacci]

Don't blow points on upgrade crap you don't need and their fine.  10 marines, 2 plasmaguns in a havoc rhino.  That's it.  No mark, no VotLW, no powerfist, no dozer blade, no icon, no banner and certainly no extra armor.  Use those points to put another squad on the table.  I think we can all do the basic math and see that point for point more models beats any mark.

 

The biggest downside for basic CSM is that it is too easy to build an overcost "do everything" squad that will never earn it points back in a game.  Keep them cheap and keep them out of close combat. 

[Excessus]

Comparing units in our codex to units in another marine codex is moot, we don't have access to them and as such they are uninteresting when we build lists...

[Grey Mage]

Chaos SM with BP, CCW, and Bolter- 15pts... and I hear hatred on the internet.

 

GH with BP, CCW, and Bolter- 15pts, and I hear envy from most sources.

 

GHs get a few cheaper upgrades, CSMs get more upgrades but pay a bit more for some of them- and dont have to choose between higher leadership and a second special weapon, and can have up to 20 in a squad if you like.... honestly I think theyre a great troops unit. They just need to be fielded in quantity to be useful, because you know- theyre troops.

[daboarder]

Chaos SM with BP, CCW, and Bolter- 15pts... and I hear hatred on the internet.

 

GH with BP, CCW, and Bolter- 15pts, and I hear envy from most sources.

 

GHs get a few cheaper upgrades, CSMs get more upgrades but pay a bit more for some of them- and dont have to choose between higher leadership and a second special weapon, and can have up to 20 in a squad if you like.... honestly I think theyre a great troops unit. They just need to be fielded in quantity to be useful, because you know- theyre troops.

And They Shall Know No Fear

 

 

Don't blow points on upgrade crap you don't need and their fine.  10 marines, 2 plasmaguns in a havoc rhino.  That's it.  No mark, no VotLW, no powerfist, no dozer blade, no icon, no banner and certainly no extra armor.  Use those points to put another squad on the table.  I think we can all do the basic math and see that point for point more models beats any mark.

 

The biggest downside for basic CSM is that it is too easy to build an overcost "do everything" squad that will never earn it points back in a game.  Keep them cheap and keep them out of close combat. 

 

What useless crap was added?

 

T5, not really useless

VotLW (without ATSKNF and only Ld9 on the champ this is kinda necessary)

 

when I stated the points on a per man basis I wasn't including a LC on the champ, though personally I think, given the stupid "must suicide" rule than at least "drawing" a basic challenge is the least we can do.

[Rayray]

The unit comparison is silly, as we have cultists among other tools to allow for breathing room for upgrades. My two chaos space marine units with plasma rocks almost every game, and with a point ratio balance between chaos marines, daemons, and cultists, the marines certainly have a place in every one of my lists.

[Jiron]

I also like my Chaos Space Marines. Since the new book I started taking them rather then Khorne Berzerkers. I am running 2 squads on every battle. Sometimes 3.

 

1) Close combat gear, Mark of Khorne, Two plasmaguns, plasma pistol and power sword/Maul

2) Bolters, Mark of Nurgle, Two plasmaguns, Plasma Pistol, Power sword/maul

 

Though it seems unfitting for a close combat unit, runing with two plasmas. I found it great when you get out of a rhino (which I play either clear or with dirge caster) and you cannot charge, to fire five plasma shots and some pistols. It is quite weight of fire that can hurt.

[RapatoR]

 

Chaos SM with BP, CCW, and Bolter- 15pts... and I hear hatred on the internet.

 

GH with BP, CCW, and Bolter- 15pts, and I hear envy from most sources.

 

GHs get a few cheaper upgrades, CSMs get more upgrades but pay a bit more for some of them- and dont have to choose between higher leadership and a second special weapon, and can have up to 20 in a squad if you like.... honestly I think theyre a great troops unit. They just need to be fielded in quantity to be useful, because you know- theyre troops.

And They Shall Know No Fear

Counter-attack

[Iron_Within]

It angers me greatly when the Basic Imp Fist Tactical is far superior to my Iron Warriors at shooting. Chapter tactics are something that get under our skin easily I believe (with good reason, why shouldn't our hate filled boys in Iron have as much character as their loyalist counterpart?).

 

However in the spirit of this thread and trying to keep the hate away I've come up with a quick and dirty list for competitive (or in my case semi competitive) play using only marines and their overlooked counterparts Chosen.

 

2000pts list

Lord: Brand, Power Weapon, Melta Bombs

 

9 Chosen: 5 Flamers, Rhino.

 

4 Units of:

10 CSM's: 2 Plasma Guns, Combi Plasma, VotLW, Rhino with Havoc Launcher

 

2 BaleDrakes.

 

3 Maulerfiends with Melta Cutters.

 

Essentially a reintroduction of a Rhino rush. It's meant for a board with heavier terrain (well the amount of terrain you should play on) so the Rhino's can always be obscured. The Lord goes with the Chosen and hits the biggest Blob Squad out there to get the most of the Flamers and Brand. The CSM's should be working together shooting each target taking them apart piece. The Maulerfiends go after the biggest armour or target units in a pinch. The Drakes, well the Drakes are the coup de grace as always. The whole point is target saturation. The Chosen can clear an objective like on the Baledrake can of which you have two. and the Marines get onto the objectives. The army gets right in the opponents face and plays aggressive. 8 pieces of armour and 50 MEQ bodies are not easy to get rid of.

[Nehekhare]

apologists all.

 

ATSKNF for free is objectively better than VotlW for +1pt/model.

 

2 chapter tactics/codex specific traits for +1pt/model is objectively better than "champion of chaos" (disadvantage!) or any of the marks (at +2-3pts).

 

inherent abilities are objectively better than snipable icons.

 

3 transport options is objectively better than one.

 

what exactly is there to argue?

[Iron_Within]

Nehekhare: read the title of the thread, 'Making the best of a Bad Unit'. Don't go throwing round words like 'apologists' because I'm) far from. I'm incredibly angry that my favourite army has been shafted, AGAIN. That as stated above, the loyalist counterpart and rivals to my army and better in every way to my Iron Warriors. What I want to do is express my dissatisfaction for GW substandard product the they have produced in a meaningful way as an individual, one that GW will actually take notice of, but I cannot, so I won't. So I'm left with either proxying my IW as Plague Marines (which I largely do) or having a substandard unit to my opponents core units and simply outplaying them.

 

At this point I'm no longer purchasing GW products, because I have loads to paint anyways, but after that I shall not be buying anymore. Because they have created such a poor product that I do not wish to be their customer. And I've never felt like that, and I'm from 2nd edition days before Chaos had any Codex. 

 

There is no narrative to forge other than Chaos getting their teeth kicked with Baledrakes saving the day. That is our narrative.

 

With that out the way, I wish to point out I try to remain positive and don't get overly bitter, that above is what I feel, but crying about spilt milk is a waste of time.

[Sception]

Not much.  While I wouldn't say CSMs are a 'bad unit', they're certainly sub par when compared to other power armored core infantry, with the possible exceptions of Black Templars (about to be subsumed into the main book anyway) and sisters (which there's pretty much no arguing aren't worse off than we are, and with no relief in sight).  And most of the CSM's options would, imo, qualify as trap options, where the benefits you gain aren't worth the points you pay for them.  Naked with a couple special weapons on foot or in a rhino with combi weapon or havoc launcher they're alright.  Otherwise, meh.  They're especially meh in assault, where the moral weakness and lack of deployment/transport options are especially painful, which is sad given the supposed assault leanings of our books.  None of the marks or icons are worth the points investment, they have to give up a special if they want to escort a character and still take their only transport option, etc etc.

 

I do alright with the standard configuration, and I don't think the BL vets tax will hurt them too bad, so I'm likely to keep running them once the supplement is available on the 7th, though if troop chosen without abaddon is a thing I'll be testing out Jeske's 'six chosen with three plasma in a rhino' as an alternative.  Not that chosen are amazing, either.

[totgeboren]

It's odd, I feel like Iron_Within. Started playing CSM before they had their 2ed codex, and now with our current codex, I simply don't want to support GW anymore.

With the previous codex, you could at least do a whole load of count-as and not be penalised (my assault veterans count-as Berzerkers were pretty cool, and I could lead them with my Chaos Lord with the MoT, who was a count-as Dark Apostle.) Now we have the limitations and drawbacks of the old days (no mixing of marks, require the right mark to make the right cult troops and so on), but none of the benefits. As usual with chaos. Just drawbacks, no buffs.

But back on topic, making the best of a bad situation. I dunno, I try and just not think about how annoyed I am with GW. I'm also using my Orks, and am looking forward to the new Ork codex. Just make armies that are cool and drink beer while you play. It takes the edge off for me at least.

I've spent a lot of extra time modelling and painting my basic CSM, so I really enjoy fielding them. Double-plasma is really nice, and Khorne marked dudes in a LR with dual-melta has worked pretty good for me, sometimes even managing to hold an objective in the enemy deployment zone. Basic CSM are ok-ish. The problem is that other potential troops like NM or PM do the same thing as them, but better, and loyalist equivalents are better across the board. So they feel a bit meh, even if they are ok.

[Jiron]

Well, technically, you can have a squad of renegade space marines (C:CSM) which knows fear but has bolters, two plasmaguns and champion that have blade, pistol and bolter for 10 less points then Space marines who doesn't know fear and have some weapons for free and their sergeant doesn't have bolter or blade. For those points you can get some extra bits. 

[Fibonacci]

 

 

T5, not really useless

VotLW (without ATSKNF and only Ld9 on the champ this is kinda necessary)

T5 lets a CSM shrug off 16% more wounds.

T5 costs 23% of cost of a CSM

Therefore more models > MoN

 

My primary army (Sisters of Battle) is Ld9/8 with 1 Fearless character, 1 Stubborn character and one Fearless Elite unit.  I know that in an assault the Battle Sister Squad id toast.  So I keep them out of close combat and let Assassins and Repentia handle assaults.  It can be done for the most part but occasionally you will have to sacrifice a unit to keep the enemy where you need them or to get your own counter in place. When that happens, VotLW is not going to stop Lelith Hesperax and 15 DE Wytches from ripping the unit apart before they can swing so you want to give up as few points as possible. 

 

If you stop and think about it, the only time VotLW kicks in is when you lose.  The only time it helps is when you barely lose.  These times should be rare if you are focusing overwhelming force against a target or throwing cheap units against massive deathstars to tarpit them. You should either not need it because you are winning or not want it on disposable units.

[Sception]

actually, the 16% isn't quite right.  It may seem that way at first, but it's deceptive.  You see, against S4, you go from being wounded on 4s to being wounded on 5s, and as such shrug off a third of the wounds you would otherwise have taken.  You would think that makes you 33% more durable rather than 16% more durable, but it's even better then that.  You actually end up 50% more durable (alt, marines without the MoN are only 66% as durable as marines with it).

 

it takes, on average, 36 bolter hits to drop six T4 marines (on average 2 hits per marine to wound, 3 wounds per marine to bypass their save).  But it takes 54 bolter shots on average to drop 6 T5 marines (on average 3 hits to wound, same 3 wounds to fail a save).  That's 18 more hits, 50% more durable.  It's even more noticeable against S3, which requires fully twice as many hits to achieve the same number of wounds, or 100% more durable.

 

Of course, it's progressively less effective against S5 and S6 attacks, and meaningless against S2 or less, or S7 or more.  And its likewise meaningless against the SMs new gravturions, which might matter if they prove as popular as some expect.  And in my experience, there's enough higher strength stuff out there, especially when it comes to things that ignore your save, that that upgrade is not worth its price anyway.  Especially considering that while the increase in durability does outstrip the lost wounds in terms of staying power against S3, 4, 5, and 6 attacks, it only does so by much for S3 and S4, and its coming at a noticeable loss in offensive output.

 

In general, if you want MoN, I feel you're better off spending the additional points needed to just take plague marines, with their fearless, FNP, poison, and better ratio for special weapons.

[totgeboren]

 

 

 

T5, not really useless

VotLW (without ATSKNF and only Ld9 on the champ this is kinda necessary)

T5 lets a CSM shrug off 16% more wounds.

T5 costs 23% of cost of a CSM

Therefore more models > MoN

I just have to ask, how on earth did you get "T5 lets a CSM shrug off 16% more wounds"?

 

Their cost goes up by 23%, but against S3 you will lose 38% less points per hit, against S4 you will lose 19% less points per hit, against S5 8% points less, against S6 1,5% less per hit, and against S7+ you lose 23% more points per hit (because there is no benefit, only the added cost).

 

So, MoN is on average better than simply having more numbers, at least against small arms fire though they get a reduction in offensive output (because you have less marines).

 

I dunno, it think it's about 50/50. I don't have that big of a problem with my marines getting killed by small arms fire. I most often get killed by bigger guns, and the MoN isn't as helpful there, not to mention that it also reduces my offensive output against stuff with lower S weapons in the first place. I'm thinking that killing 23% more enemy infantry will make up for not the suffering 19% less casualties(by points) against their weapons (if they have S4 guns).

[Sception]

Far better numbers than mine, making the gains in point for point durability more explicit.  They got 16% from a rough approximation of 1/6, since at first glance +1 toughness means one less result on the D6 roll to wound will succeed, so one might imagine that +1 toughness would thus make you 1/6 tougher.

 

The truth, of course, is a touch more complicated than that.

[Rayray]

While mark plague marines may be more cost efficient, at what point do you start sacrificing fluff and background of our army for competitive play? I find middle ground between the two with unmarked units, despite how lackluster people say they are.