Chaos Space Marines: Making The Best of a Bad Unit

[Sception]

I don't know, what army theme are you playing where nurgle marked CSMs are a good fit, but plague marines aren't?

[Rayray]

word bearers, which may have a bias for a particular god in the form of, "Today squad X pays tribute to god Y for benefits." But alas, 9 out of 10 times, the squads are unmarked.

[Sception]

Hrm.  I always saw word bearers as more of an 'all undivided all the time' crew, but I suppose the new fluff does have them dedicating different ways.

 

I don't think MoN is worth the upgrade, in general, but it's not so bad that I think your gimping yourself horribly by taking it.  The problem is that, like most of the options for CSMs, it costs a bit more than its worth.  Take just ubergrit or just MoN or just vets or just a tooled up champ and you're not hurting too much, but all of those cost more than they're worth, and that weight starts pulling you down, such that once you get to veteran CSMs with MoN and extra close combat weapon and a couple special weapons and a power weapon on the champ you end up with a unit that's costing you arguably 30 points or more in excess of what they can deliver, especially when you start considering that some of that is primarily of benefit in melee, while the unit's rhino is rather poor at getting them there and their low leadership can cause the whole expensive pile to vanish in an instance once they do get there.

 

Basically, the closer to 200 points you're paying for a unit of 10 with two specials, the more reasonable they seem, while the closer to 300 points you're spending, the less worthwhile the whole pile becomes.

 

 

And that's before we consider that power armored infantry in general has a hard time of it these days.  What happens when you start bumping into Space Marine players with 15 shot twin linked grav cannon centurion squads wounding you on re-rollable threes regardless of Mark of Nurgle?  What happens when you bump into a fellow CSM player and have to choke down two or three baledrakes and a burning brand?  What happens when you have to deal with Tau suits hopping out to blast you with all their shenanigans before ducking back out of sight?  What happens when you get caught up by a mess of seekers who flay your marines with rending attacks, not caring how tough you are since they're mostly just rolling for sixes anyway, while their champion or herald with AP2 at init higher-than-you calls your champ out for a challenge?

 

It may just be my own personal experience, but it seems to me that MeQ in general isn't in the best place right now, which leaves sub-par, non-fearless meq with sub-par delivery options and overpriced (if only slightly) upgrades in a particularly lackluster position.

[hornywingythingy]

The core unit of the game is marines, most things are unfortunately geared towards smashing meq, I honestly don't see why you'd run csm, I'm not sure I agree with reecius assertion on faeit 212 that they are the worst 6th ed troop in the game (bloodletters take that one imho) but I'm certainly not building lists with them......

[A D-B]

The "worst unit" remains the backbone of my army, and the only thing that significantly, regularly wastes Grey Knight Terminators through massed firepower.

 

10 Chaos Marines with Veterans of the Long War; an Icon of Vengeance; Aspiring Champion with melta bombs, a power sword, and a plasma pistol; and either a heavy bolter and plasma gun on the two specialists, or two meltaguns.

 

In the immortal words of John French, "A 10-man shooting Chaos Marine unit with a plasma gun and an autocannon is God's own squad."

[Sception]

I'm not sure I'd call bloodletters worse, but sisters certainly are, as are templars up until the new SM book rolls them back in.  I'm pretty sure there are other worse units as well.  'Lackluster' I'd call them.  Not bad, and certainly not awful, but nothing to write home about, either, and significantly behind sonics, plagues, and cultists when it comes to competing for troop slots in our own book.

[Rayray]

The "worst unit" remains the backbone of my army, and the only thing that significantly, regularly wastes Grey Knight Terminators through massed firepower.

 

10 Chaos Marines with Veterans of the Long War; an Icon of Vengeance; Aspiring Champion with melta bombs, a power sword, and a plasma pistol; and either a heavy bolter and plasma gun on the two specialists, or two meltaguns.

 

In the immortal words of John French, "A 10-man shooting Chaos Marine unit with a plasma gun and an autocannon is God's own squad."

Why not a combi plasma? The opportunity for 6 plasma shots is brutal against any power armored unit.

[A D-B]

 

The "worst unit" remains the backbone of my army, and the only thing that significantly, regularly wastes Grey Knight Terminators through massed firepower.

 

10 Chaos Marines with Veterans of the Long War; an Icon of Vengeance; Aspiring Champion with melta bombs, a power sword, and a plasma pistol; and either a heavy bolter and plasma gun on the two specialists, or two meltaguns.

 

In the immortal words of John French, "A 10-man shooting Chaos Marine unit with a plasma gun and an autocannon is God's own squad."

Why not a combi plasma? The opportunity for 6 plasma shots is brutal against any power armored unit.

 

I really, really like how plasma pistols look. 

[Rayray]

Rule of cool for the win. I envision my csm champion sitting in his rhino stroking his combi plaz like Dr. evil does in Austin Powers.... "Yes, mr. biggles-worth....let them come closer..."

[Sedekiel]

 

The "worst unit" remains the backbone of my army, and the only thing that significantly, regularly wastes Grey Knight Terminators through massed firepower.

 

10 Chaos Marines with Veterans of the Long War; an Icon of Vengeance; Aspiring Champion with melta bombs, a power sword, and a plasma pistol; and either a heavy bolter and plasma gun on the two specialists, or two meltaguns.

 

In the immortal words of John French, "A 10-man shooting Chaos Marine unit with a plasma gun and an autocannon is God's own squad."

Why not a combi plasma? The opportunity for 6 plasma shots is brutal against any power armored unit.

Combi-weapons were  not invented until after the First World War...

Plasma pistol, power weapon and a whistle were the Standard Equipment for an Aspiring Champion at the time.

[totgeboren]

As a follow-up to my post above, I must point out that the numbers are exactly the same for Plague Marines in relation to unmarked CSM. They cost 50% more than a Nurgle marked CSM, but have a 5+ FnP, so it evens out. On the other hand, their cost goes up by 85% per model.

So you get 23% less bolters with CSM+MoN, and 85% less bolters with PM. What that buys you is a net gain in reducing the impact of enemy fire if they are S5 and below, about even against S6, and a loss of point per enemy attack if you are attacked by S7 or better stuff.

 

I just felt I had to do a little graph, just because I found this sort of interesting.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i95/totgeboren40/comparison.gif

(Note that the x-asis is a normal CSM, that is, the graph is normalised to a basic CSM.)

 

The steep drop at S10 is because the PM lose both the benefit of the T5 and FnP. So actually, you are giving something up for taking PM or even just CSM+MoN. A reduction in offensive output, which starts to get noticeable in the PM case, on the other hand they get poison and Fearless. IF basic bolters had a bigger impact, this would be a bigger drawback for PM. As it is, my CSM tend to do damage by special weapons or in close combat, but normal CSM don't really want to be in cc because of forced challenges and no Fearless/ATSKNF.

[Rayray]

So, you analyzed numbers numbers without consideration for the other units in a codex. Cool story, bro. Without a sample of players taking the exact same csm unit along with the exact same lists, math hammering is all but useless.

[totgeboren]

People were comparing CSM, CSM with the MoN, and PM. I found it sort of interesting that the gain in resilience for even PM weren't really all that. From what the intertubes say, I would have thought they would be much better. So hardly "without consideration for other units", as that was exactly what the analysis was. Compare three similar units used for the same thing.

[Rayray]

But three similar units from different codexes wont have the same units overall, so while you may be able to use certain statistics to compare my csm units with or without marks to a grey hunter squad, how does the grey hunter squad(s) compare to my csm unit sitting next to 35 autogun cultists to help the csm unit become more cost efficient within my list?

[totgeboren]

I was not aware of CSM, CSM+MoN and PM being from different codexses...

Seriously, that was a sort of odd argument. I was just pointing out that while the internet says that PM are the best and basic CSM suck, (unless you give them MoN which supposedly makes them ok) it's not that clear cut, especially since the majority of at least my CSM losses comes from S6 and 7 guns (as I have mainly been facing Eldar lately).

By looking at these numbers, the three units seem pretty evenly matched, considering the loss of offensive output that the MoN or going full PM entails.

[Rayray]

Ok. So, what tactics do you use to make yours work, and what units do you use in conjunction with them? And i did mistype the analogy. I meant  comparing 3 troops, each from a different codex without analyzing all 3 codexes completely.

[Sception]

Remember that plague marines also boast innate fearless, poison, and a higher special weapon ratio.

[totgeboren]

Ok. So, what tactics do you use to make yours work, and what units do you use in conjunction with them? And i did mistype the analogy. I meant comparing 3 troops, each from a different codex without analyzing all 3 codexes completely.

But the point of the topic (or maybe not), but of the talk of if MoN is better or not, or if you should just go full PM is that you can make a list (whatever points), and lets say it is lead by a Nurgle lord with some Nurgle bikers (because we are talking about a semi-competitive netlist here). You can have a 200 pts troop squad, consisting of either CSM, CSM+MoN or PM, and the rest of the list can be identical. This takes away variables such as skill, terrain and luck, and we can say "Oh, look, CSM+MoN is actually better point-for-point for weathering low-strenght fire." The analogy doesn't work for all (I'm not running a Nurgle Lord for example, so PM are not an option for me.)

This is a counter-argument to the notion that CSM are clearly the inferior option.

Remember that plague marines also boast innate fearless, and a higher special weapon ratio.

Yeah, the fearless is a big boost, though they don't have a much better special weapon ratio if you go by the points. A standard CSM squad is 10 men strong, so 1 special weapon per 70 points spent, and PM at a minimum needs to spend 60 pts per special weapon access (as their Champs are free for some reason). A common PM squad is often 7 men strong, so that is 84 points spent per special weapon.

But yeah, translating innate Fearless is hard, as is poison and defensive grenades. For fun I added 2.5 points per model to CSM and CSM+MoN (Fearless icon split over 10 models), and in that case PM are superior up until S7, and equal after that (except against S10, but if the enemy are shooting S10 attacks against your troops, you have either lost bad or will win big).

But still, even if they are superior for taking a beating, you have about half the number of bolter shots. If you are playing against people who field armies where bolters are useful (it's all mech all the time here. ), you are losing out on quite some firepower by using PMs.

[Rayray]

I understand what you are saying, totgeboren. I use 20 csm with two plasma guns and a combiplasma per squad, in conjunction with 110 autogun cultists. Is there a better loadout to on the csm unit along-side cultists?

[hornywingythingy]

I'm not sure I'd call bloodletters worse, but sisters certainly are, as are templars up until the new SM book rolls them back in.

The reccius comment that started this off is in relation to other 6th codeci, not the 5th or those languishing in wd hell.

 

Bloodletters are an assault unit that lacks grenades, reliable delivery method or survivability.... Everything bloodletters do, demonettes do better, at least imho (except man quadguns, man how wrong is that?)

[Grey Mage]

 

 

Chaos SM with BP, CCW, and Bolter- 15pts... and I hear hatred on the internet.

 

GH with BP, CCW, and Bolter- 15pts, and I hear envy from most sources.

 

GHs get a few cheaper upgrades, CSMs get more upgrades but pay a bit more for some of them- and dont have to choose between higher leadership and a second special weapon, and can have up to 20 in a squad if you like.... honestly I think theyre a great troops unit. They just need to be fielded in quantity to be useful, because you know- theyre troops.

And They Shall Know No Fear

Counter-attack

Heavy weapons. Leadership 9. Ability to switch out counterattack for several other fun buffs. Dirge Casters, Having Hatred (Marines) instead of counter-attack with the option to buy rage and counter attack if you think itll be useful...

 

Not having ATSKNF is the tradeoff for innately higher leadership and base price cheaper marines. Always has been part of the trade chaos makes, and not exactly something that should come up very often seeing as chaos is going to be better at assault- if you want them to be- compared to any of their marine counterparts. Besides, its not like I only play marines- my eldar who have similar leadership and less durability dont miss ATSKNF. I think this gripe is overstressed. *shrugs*

 

Id run them cheap, as many in this thread have stated, with double specials. For fire support units double plasma and perhaps no CCWs, for assault units double melta and perhaps adding the points in for a dirge caster and mark of khorne and a lightning claw- call it 40pts well spent.

 

 

[Tenebris]

Ok, the sad truth is that the group that proclaims the CSM as a bad book are right, and what is even more sad the very icon of your codex, THE Chaos Space Mariens are indeed a very underwhelming unit. One cannot simply make them shine, try as may. 

 

Now skipping the now standard and well deserved doom and gloom thing, my basic idea behind the CSM is numbers > upgraded. The CSM is already a lacklustre unit but can get major benefits from more bodies rather upgrades. More bodies means a major wound pool, perhaps a turn more before you are forced to roll for discipline, a better result in cc and in ranged combat due to more basic rolls which are not negated in the turn following the charge. The only upgrades I think that are worth considering are the extra CCW and with the inevitable MEQ spam that will follow September a nod should be made to the VotLW. 

 

For special weapons and weapon like upgrades, Autocannon, Plasma Gun, Melta Bombs, the end. Everything else is wasted upon the CSM for they are unable to make it work properly. 

 

With MoN you prolong the agony for when you are in the receiving range of small army fire than it is usually over. So here several bodies more are more useful, for that means also more bolter shots. 

 

The CSM are not a ranged and neither a melee unit, they are good at nothing particular, but this lack of focus is their strength. Load squads of 15 marines with two Plasma Guns and see those guns hold up to the end of the game. The Rhino squads might be faster, the horde squads might be more durable but we don't do extremes well, so somewhere inbetween is the sweet spot. 

 

Just roll them generic, throw them at the enemy guns and have always one cheap squad more to follow up the first. 

[minigun762]

The silly thing is that basic CSMs shouldn't be basic cheap units.

 

#1 We now have cultists for that.

#2 These are our elite troops, they should've been more like Chosen and Chosen should've been our Terminators. My feeling is CSMs should have a more "elite" feel to them compared to other MEQ troops at the cost of being more pricey.

[Tenebris]

According to the fluff we should be on the power level equal to that of a Grey Knight. Arcane knowledge, thousands of years of combat experience, baroque and powerful weaponry, sinister powers. I have once for fun proxied using the GK book my chaos marines, and you should try it, It felt very very much close to the official fluff (at least the one favorable to the CSM) than our own codex. 

 

But in game terms we are struggle to find an identity. We wish to be a horde army, yet we have only one viable horde build, we wish to be an assault army, yet we do not have the speed and the tools to be one, we wish to be a shooting army, yet we have nothing to shoot with. So what are we in truth? Well the CSM are a generalist army who can have squads with an above average model count. 

 

I always envisioned the CSM as an unit that walks across the board while shooting with bolters and the occasional autocannon and plasma gun when in range. If the squad makes it into the short range to bring the full weight of bolter fire we have here the advantage of numbers over other armies who have special rules for their bolter squads. In the following turn if the CSM survived the close ranged firefight they can effectively finish the enemy squad using the added benefits of the extra CCW and our army wide bonus VotLW against the marines. 

 

If you play the CSM in such a way you actually see them as a viable unit. Still woefully underwhelming in most phases yet able to saturate with fire, survive some attention from the enemy guns and a chance to use the above average stats (MEQ) to spar a turn in melee. 

 

So my optimal setup is:

 

CSM

- 10 additional marines

- Autocannon

- Plasma Gun

- Melta Bombs

- Extra CCW

- VotLW if your meta is marine heavy. 

 

Total: 263 points...278 with the Veterans...

 

This squad functions on all ranges, has enough bodies to stay alive and safe from too many discipline checks and it is able to have a say even in close combat. To tone down the points one could even remove the close combat weapon upgrade. The assault should be a way to finish off a squad or to get into melee to prevent your squad from being shot up. 

[totgeboren]

I understand what you are saying, totgeboren. I use 20 csm with two plasma guns and a combiplasma per squad, in conjunction with 110 autogun cultists. Is there a better loadout to on the csm unit along-side cultists?

How should I know?!

No but seriously, I would love to be able to field such an army. As I mentioned earlier, I mostly face full mech fast armies. The only thing I can use cultists for is to try and hold objectives, I have had to totally redo my armies to be able to stand a chance of even killing a single enemy unit. I used to field lots of cultists and CSM in rhinos, with havoc and dread support.

The new Eldar totally killed my army. Dreads are pointless as Falcons kill them in a turn or so, and cultists can't touch Falcons, Rhinos get killed turn one by the Falcons, and marines on foot are not fast enough to even threaten them with plasmaguns (and if they are on foot they get destroyed by Prisms). Termies get cut to shreds by basic shurikens. Yeah.

If the horde approach works for you, basic CSM are probably the best unit for you, since they reinforce your horde theme. A horde of basic CSM would definitely not work for me, though I still don't use PM or even Nurgle marked CSM.