Chaos Space Marines: Making The Best of a Bad Unit

[RapatoR]

 

 

 

Chaos SM with BP, CCW, and Bolter- 15pts... and I hear hatred on the internet.

 

GH with BP, CCW, and Bolter- 15pts, and I hear envy from most sources.

 

GHs get a few cheaper upgrades, CSMs get more upgrades but pay a bit more for some of them- and dont have to choose between higher leadership and a second special weapon, and can have up to 20 in a squad if you like.... honestly I think theyre a great troops unit. They just need to be fielded in quantity to be useful, because you know- theyre troops.

And They Shall Know No Fear

Counter-attack

Heavy weapons. Leadership 9. Ability to switch out counterattack for several other fun buffs. Dirge Casters, Having Hatred (Marines) instead of counter-attack with the option to buy rage and counter attack if you think itll be useful...

But you have to buy all those tings. Then your marines end up more expensive than your average GH and that was point. There is vast difference between truegrit unit that costs 15 pts because it has counter-attack and truegrit unit that costs 15 pts becuse it can buy counter attack.

Also heavy weapons: I dont know about others, but I rarely use heavy weapon on CSM unit. Equiping unit with it makes it static and you need those guys on the move. Yes SM use this to much greater effect, but that is thanks to combat squads.

 

And lets not forget one important thing: This is comparision of troop choice from 6th ed. dex vs 5th ed. dex. We are clearly seeing trend of troops getting cheaper and better (via various special rules) in 6th. When I look at rumored rules for tacticals and compare their cost with basic CSM I just can`t understand how is their pricing meant to be fair. Heck compare tacs from SM dex and DA dex, they are rumored to be evenly costed, yet Chapter tactics of SM dex seem to be superior to Stubborn of DA.

[Rayray]

I understand what you are saying, totgeboren. I use 20 csm with two plasma guns and a combiplasma per squad, in conjunction with 110 autogun cultists. Is there a better loadout to on the csm unit along-side cultists?

How should I know?!

No but seriously, I would love to be able to field such an army. As I mentioned earlier, I mostly face full mech fast armies. The only thing I can use cultists for is to try and hold objectives, I have had to totally redo my armies to be able to stand a chance of even killing a single enemy unit. I used to field lots of cultists and CSM in rhinos, with havoc and dread support.

The new Eldar totally killed my army. Dreads are pointless as Falcons kill them in a turn or so, and cultists can't touch Falcons, Rhinos get killed turn one by the Falcons, and marines on foot are not fast enough to even threaten them with plasmaguns (and if they are on foot they get destroyed by Prisms). Termies get cut to shreds by basic shurikens. Yeah.

If the horde approach works for you, basic CSM are probably the best unit for you, since they reinforce your horde theme. A horde of basic CSM would definitely not work for me, though I still don't use PM or even Nurgle marked CSM.

Aha! I dont see a whole lot of eldar in the meta here. Loyalist marine players are everywhere here, with the occasional guard mech lists and chaos players. One of the ravenwing players is starting off eldar allies, so i may soon face a similar problem. Hopefully the csm units surrounded by blobs will hold strong still.

[Dallas Drake]

It's simple GW marketing, if CSMs were top tier nobody would buy Cultists. Sorry it's that cynical but it's pretty true - I've seen GW do this with plenty of armies, look at Spawn for further proof.  It really, really puts me off giving money to that company.

 

As for making CSMs work.  They're certainly not the worst troop unit in the game at all.  Their problem is people look at Grey Hunters & feel envy, that said I really don't buy the fuss over lack of Fearless, I've had a unit break a few times, usually when I charged something I shouldn't have or made a huge mistake.  I think the key to them is keeping them cheap, having enough bodies to get the job done, and knowing exactly what you want them to do.  Chosen are a missed chance, they should've been troops for us without Abby, look at IG with their Vets.  One of the issues with CSMs for me is actually the fact that we only have Rhinos or LRs as transports, the former are pretty soft & LRs are bad - so I'd go with 15-20 on foot w/plasma personally.

 

Dallas

[daboarder]

Could you please then explain the nephilim jetfighter drake?

[Sception]

And the Dark Apostle? And Raptors/Warp Talons? And Possessed in 4th edition?

 

Sometimes new things are great, and sometimes they suck. Sometimes old things are great, and sometimes they suck. This isn't about trying to push new models, it's about inconsistent quality of design.

[Dallas Drake]

Could you please then explain the nephilim jetfighter drake?

 

Why is it crap? I've not played against DA yet & I have no intention of collecting them either.  

 

Everyone knows GW make crap units good & good units crap.  Just look at what they did with Tyranids & Carnifexes (I know plenty of 3rd/4th edition players who still feel angry about this).  It's a marketing strategy designed to get players to buy all of their armies models, is it not surprising that the CSM range only got a few new kits. Same crap CSMs which are too small & have stupid legs, same meh-ish Spawn (what a surprise, that warehouse full of them is now emtpying nicely), pretty good DV kits but you pretty much have to buy the DV box (or use ebay/bits sites which GW is trying to shut down) no Chosen models, no new Possessed, no new Defiler, not even plastic Plague Marines or new plastic kits for cult troops, no new anything apart from new kits that GW want to sell.

 

You don't have to agree with me & it's not always that this is the case as you cite above but IMO this hobby has become a bit of a joke.

 

Dallas

 

EDIT: I agree it is about inconsistent design 100% but GW are running a business, of course it is about pushing out as many models as possible.

[Sception]

No, GW doesn't always do that. Look at possessed and thousand sons - were crap, stayed crap. Look at Plague Marines: were good, stayed good.

 

GW writes rules, and those rules are inconsistent, because they don't use enough play testing to solidly nail them down. So sometimes new units are great, and sometimes they're terrible. Sometimes bad units get better while good units get worse, and sometimes the stuff that's already good just keeps being good while the stuff that sucks only gets nerfed further.

 

The only patterns here are the product of confirmation bias, nothing more than that. You imagine a pattern, and your brain takes every event that fits that imagined pattern as proof, while rationalizing every event that doesn't fit as a circumstantial outlier that can be ignored.

 

GW are trying to make money, yes, but when it comes to the rules, they try to do that by making a good game. A good game gets played, the players have fun, and the fun they have inspires them to buy more stuff. They talk it up with their friends, introducing new players who then buy in themselves. A bad game isn't fun. Players stop playing, so they stop buying, and they tell their friends not to play as well.

 

GW are trying to make a good game. They're just not consistently good at it. They've had varying views among their designers over the years of what a good game looks like, and even when they do have a consistent vision, they don't do the play testing necessary to achieve consistent results.

[Emperors Immortals]

Pushing underperforming model lines doesnt make as much sense as expanding existing ones as a corporate conspiracy IMO.

 

Introducing the Drake is good for profit - no argument, but I feel making CSM better would give a better return then making spawn/possesed better simply because more people will add a box of CSM to there collection then spawn/possesed which leads to more profit. I know ive added 3 more CSM boxes and no spawn/possessed. Ive even added 2 Bezerker boxes, even if there kind of meh.

 

No, malisteen is dead right about the problems; the fix is either an open testing system or a dedicated play testing program that stays consistant over an entire edition.

[Someblindmarineplayer]

I run 20 marines/ 19 ccw trade-ins, power fist, lightning claw, veterans, mark of slaneesh, icon of excess. they make a great bodyguard unit for in my case huron but really for any fearless IC on foot.

[Grey Mage]

The silly thing is that basic CSMs shouldn't be basic cheap units.

#1 We now have cultists for that.

#2 These are our elite troops, they should've been more like Chosen and Chosen should've been our Terminators. My feeling is CSMs should have a more "elite" feel to them compared to other MEQ troops at the cost of being more pricey.

But that is exactly what people are complaining about, so how can you make this argument?

I

understand what you are saying, totgeboren. I use 20 csm with two plasma guns and a combiplasma per squad, in conjunction with 110 autogun cultists. Is there a better loadout to on the csm unit along-side cultists?

How should I know?!

No but seriously, I would love to be able to field such an army. As I mentioned earlier, I mostly face full mech fast armies. The only thing I can use cultists for is to try and hold objectives, I have had to totally redo my armies to be able to stand a chance of even killing a single enemy unit. I used to field lots of cultists and CSM in rhinos, with havoc and dread support.

The new Eldar totally killed my army. Dreads are pointless as Falcons kill them in a turn or so, and cultists can't touch Falcons, Rhinos get killed turn one by the Falcons,

and marines on foot are not fast enough to even threaten them with plasmaguns (and if they are on foot they get destroyed by Prisms). Termies get cut to shreds by basic shurikens. Yeah.

If the horde approach works for you, basic CSM are probably the best unit for you, since they reinforce your horde theme. A horde of basic CSM would definitely not work for me, though I still don't use PM or even Nurgle marked CSM.

Sounds like eldar doing what Eldar do best- determining the footing the fight takes place on so they can apply their strengths to your weaknesses. Still, if youre mech is being wiped out by falcons of all god forsaken units then you arent fielding more than a couple of them... and that might be part of the problem. Unless you meant waveserpents?

But Im surprised this is a new problem for you- ground pounding forces have always needed a good supply of antitank firepower to keep up with mech, or untraditional fast units like deep strikers- obliterators, raptors with meltas, etc- or bikes to help make up the speed difference and slow down their opponents so they in turn have the advantage. Why are you having problems killing the enemies support?

[totgeboren]

Sounds like eldar doing what Eldar do best- determining the footing the fight takes place on so they can apply their strengths to your weaknesses. Still, if youre mech is being wiped out by falcons of all god forsaken units then you arent fielding more than a couple of them... and that might be part of the problem. Unless you meant waveserpents?

But Im surprised this is a new problem for you- ground pounding forces have always needed a good supply of antitank firepower to keep up with mech, or untraditional fast units like deep strikers- obliterators, raptors with meltas, etc- or bikes to help make up the speed difference and slow down their opponents so they in turn have the advantage. Why are you having problems killing the enemies support?

 

Serpents. Yes, I definitely mean Waveserpents, not Falcons.

 

Well, i'm not having as much trouble now. The problem is that he has a range of 60" (quite a bit more than Eldar artillery. Kelly sucks) and ignore cover, so as long as he sees just a bit of any AV12 or weaker vehicle, that vehicle is dead.

I'm using bikes, a Predator for fire support and actually a Land Raider. Sure, the Prism makes short work of a Land Raider, but it often survives at least one turn, and that is all I need.

 

Deep striking Oblits and Termies sound good at first, until you realize all those Falcons are packed with Avengers or Guardians, who both kill Termies so fast it's a bit shocking.

 

My Eldar opponent is also pretty lucky with his cover saves for his vehicles, as I often can't even scratch them at range.

 

But yeah, it's not that I can't win vs mechdar, it's that mechdar invalidates most of my army. I had to start leaving my autocannon havocs at home, since they simply don't have enough range, and between AV12, jink saves and eldar fields, they have only caused 1 Hull point of damage over 5 games I think before I simply stopped using them.

 

One would think that AC would be really good vs mechdar, but the Low S and AP just means the Eldar player will use the shields to barrage me without giving up anything. Lascannons makes him think twice about giving up the defensive ability of the shields.

[TheDevourer]

If he is shooting the shields at you... then he can´t use them next turn to negate your penetrate rolls. If you deepstrike to his rear armor he also can´t use them. Best you can do is grab a heldrake for the vector strike ignoring cover and probably destroying it outright with daemonforge. Otherwise oblis or termis are the way to go. 5 Dire avengers will not kill 2-3 MoN Oblis and if he disembarks with his troop choices to kill them, this is where you punish him for doing so. Firing any weapon at side or front armor feels like wasting it, so use mobile weapon platforms or fire at serpents with downed shields.

 

If you have first turn he will not have any cover saves from the holo fields, so only cover from natural terrain.

[Zhorzh]

I've found ways to compensate for the lack of ATSKNF. It only matters in CC (models can't be destroyed by Sweeping Advance, and can always rally and do what ever they want afterwards), which isn't much considering this is an edition centered around shooting.  So, having Ld10 or 9 is more or less equal to ATSKNF if you stay away from CC since you have better Ld than Marines.

 

If CSMs get assaulted, fine. Only several dedicated CC units are worth a damn in this edition when it comes to CC, and they hit hard anyway so there's nothing that CSMs can do except dealing as much damage as they can. They will loose and run (not that bad since rallying is much more forgiving in this edition) or all die, and you get to deal with the charging unit in the next turn.

 

What CSM can't compensate for are Combat Tactics.  Not having the abilities to voluntarily retreat and splitting units is something you can't get around or emulate. There's a reason why the new DA Tacticals are inferior to 5th Ed Vanilla Tacticals.

[Grey Mage]

Though most C:SM players do nothing but complain about tacticals too- so whos right? Everyone wants everyone elses toys.

 

 

 

 

 

Chaos SM with BP, CCW, and Bolter- 15pts... and I hear hatred on the internet.

 

GH with BP, CCW, and Bolter- 15pts, and I hear envy from most sources.

 

GHs get a few cheaper upgrades, CSMs get more upgrades but pay a bit more for some of them- and dont have to choose between higher leadership and a second special weapon, and can have up to 20 in a squad if you like.... honestly I think theyre a great troops unit. They just need to be fielded in quantity to be useful, because you know- theyre troops.

And They Shall Know No Fear

Counter-attack

Heavy weapons. Leadership 9. Ability to switch out counterattack for several other fun buffs. Dirge Casters, Having Hatred (Marines) instead of counter-attack with the option to buy rage and counter attack if you think itll be useful...

But you have to buy all those tings. Then your marines end up more expensive than your average GH and that was point. There is vast difference between truegrit unit that costs 15 pts because it has counter-attack and truegrit unit that costs 15 pts becuse it can buy counter attack.

Also heavy weapons: I dont know about others, but I rarely use heavy weapon on CSM unit. Equiping unit with it makes it static and you need those guys on the move. Yes SM use this to much greater effect, but that is thanks to combat squads.

 

And lets not forget one important thing: This is comparision of troop choice from 6th ed. dex vs 5th ed. dex. We are clearly seeing trend of troops getting cheaper and better (via various special rules) in 6th. When I look at rumored rules for tacticals and compare their cost with basic CSM I just can`t understand how is their pricing meant to be fair. Heck compare tacs from SM dex and DA dex, they are rumored to be evenly costed, yet Chapter tactics of SM dex seem to be superior to Stubborn of DA.

 

 

You always pay more for options than you do for a lack of options- regardless of the rules system, the codex, or the edition. Why? Because having that option is a powerful thing, and its where inbalance most likely creeps into a system.

 

So CSMs can be whatever you want them to be- and pay for that. Just like SW WG pay more for every iteration compared to a C:SM Sergeant or TDA.

Being 3pts cheaper, with the same equipment in return for losing two powerful special rules, and then the ability to buy back whatever special rules you want is whats going on- most of them are 2pts, and a number of them are powerful. Want a ultragrit unit that can scare the bejeezus out of other units? Givem CCW and Mark of Slannesh- I5 and the attacks of an assault squad, they go down like chumps. Of course, that requires making assault a part of your plan- if you dont want it then dont take it, and pocket the savings. They arent a bad unit just because theyre vulnerable to sweeping advance, and thats really what were talking about- a lack of ATSKNF. Combat squads is a horrible way to go 9/10 anyways, and with double specials as an option you dont need to split off your heavy weapon to make it more useful.

[Rayray]

Having a choice is nice, as you say, Grey Mage, but the builds with csm units are pretty much preset when I can save 3pts and almost add in a cultist, amongst other options. Not to mention, options aren't really options when few to no one takes them. These days, barebones csm are popular for a reason (two plasma guns aside).

[minigun762]

On paper we have a wide variety of troop options, from unmarked cultists all the way to cult legion marines.

Sadly, many of the options are subpar and therefore not seriously considered.

 

Maybe that is something we should revisit.

[RapatoR]

 

Being 3pts cheaper, with the same equipment in return for losing two powerful special rules, and then the ability to buy back whatever special rules you want is whats going on- most of them are 2pts, and a number of them are powerful. Want a ultragrit unit that can scare the bejeezus out of other units? Givem CCW and Mark of Slannesh- I5 and the attacks of an assault squad, they go down like chumps. Of course, that requires making assault a part of your plan- if you dont want it then dont take it, and pocket the savings. They arent a bad unit just because theyre vulnerable to sweeping advance, and thats really what were talking about- a lack of ATSKNF. Combat squads is a horrible way to go 9/10 anyways, and with double specials as an option you dont need to split off your heavy weapon to make it more useful.

And here is the problem. I considered CSM to be fairly priced when they were 3 pts cheaper. But in 6th ATSKNF was buffed and according to rumors, chapter tactics will be much stronger, while basic tac suqad will drop 2 points. And if you then compare basic CSM and tacticals, thats entirely different thing. Also I am pretty sure that GH will also see drop in point cost when 6th ed SW will be released.

 

[Grey Mage]

I doubt it- theyve been bringing other books in line with C:SW pricing- expensive HQs, cheap as chips troops, and heavy support that runs efficiently if you want it to or makes a heck of a boom if you invest the points.

 

Bloodclaws will get cheaper, and if the Scouts dont get the ability to assault out of outflank theyll drop a little too.

 

It just seems like this is the same problem alot of people playing SWs have had with using GHs during the first six months of our new codex, or using WG as troops ever- to many toys. I can make a 300pt GH unit, or a 500pg WG unit and it might sound scary... but its so much better just to build exactly the unit I want and leave it alone after that. C:CSM gives some solid options in that regard. Shooting squads dont need ubergrit, wich makes them cheaper- if you fight alot of tau or eldar or GKs it might be worth the 30pts to invest in +1 T, if that isnt your meta you leave it at home and enjoy 13pt tacticals. Having the option to make an entire unit I5 is amazing, and well worth two points if you end up in assault on a regular basis- Sure that puts you at 17pts a model, at the same time you guarantee youre striking before other marines and at the same time as eldar assault units, and have enough attacks to bloody anyones nose- average of a little over 5 marines dead from a 10 man squad for 180pts, not including possible overwatch. Adding in a rhino, and a pair of plasmaguns and youre paying about 25pts more for a squad that would rip the guts out of my GHs, and is still scoring, whether I get counter-attack or not, wolf totem or not. Im jealous.

Buuuuuut, as the internet pundits keep telling us, assault is just Dead Dead Dead, and CSMs upgrades arent going to shine as much outside of assault, because they arent meant to. *shrugs* If you make assault work, you make C:CSMs work. If you dont, you run drakes and/or run away.

[Xenith]

Instead I've had plenty of experiences where a dedicated combat unit ends up butchering loyalist marines, then those marines don't get swept and instead keep the enemy squad (or Trygon) in combat, protecting them from shooting, for another round.  I really don't like ATSKNF and genuinely think it's overrated.

 

Combat tactics, yea? SM have the option to flee from the combat. We shall see how this changes in the new book.

[the jeske]

Sure that puts you at 17pts a model, at the same time you guarantee

youre striking before other marines and at the same time as eldar

assault units, and have enough attacks to bloody anyones nose- average

of a little over 5 marines dead from a 10 man squad for 180pts, not

including possible overwatch. Adding in a rhino, and a pair of

plasmaguns and youre paying about 25pts more for a squad that would rip

the guts out of my GHs, and is still scoring, whether I get

counter-attack or not, wolf totem or not. Im jealous.

Bnless they are mounted in a chaos LR they won't be charging at 10 man squad side and I think it is realy hard to make assault work in 6th in general.

[Tenebris]

The thing with ATSKNF is that you can walk that squad across the board and sustain casualities and still be effective, for if you fail the morale check you regroup the next turn in auto. A CSM squad cannot afford that since three wounds and you run most of the times. Same happens when your Rhino gets blasted and you are forced to walk and thus you are exposed to Pinning, Fear, Discipline and the many other checks, also it is worth to mention that there are many weapons and powers that force you to take some kind of discipline check. 

 

As I see ATSKNF is a very flexible Fearless since it allows you to choose when to fight and when not. An example is the fight with an Ironclad Dreadnought. You cannot dent it with Krak thus you wish to fail your discipline and run back when you can shoot it. Our basic Cult Troops are all Fearless and here they get wasted if you do not have Melta Bombs, on the other side the CSM hate Ironclads too. This is but a specific example but it presents well the problem.

 

Following up, the basic marine statline and the bolter are meant to work in the 12''-24'' range, meaning that you can survive a round of fire and than be in the Rapid Fire range. This is straight up done way better by the basic loyalist marine from all codexes due to a way better chance to be in Rapid Fire range. How? Well each loyalist codex had a Drop Pod, more Land Raider variants, and in some cases better Rhinos (Fast for BA, probably It Will not Die for the IH). This alone plays well with the strengths of the basic marine statline and weaponry. Also their Allies allow them to boost the firepower with a Librarian with Divination or some similar psyker.

 

Than it is the question what actually is the role of the CSM and marks or not, they woefully fall short when answering this question. If we had for example the option to have an additional power weapon instead of a second special one, well here all the sudden you have a proper shock unit that can outclass things in melee. If we had a way to make the CSM Relentless than you can actually make them a veritable shooting unit. But those two special weapons are more often than not a whole series of additional problems.

 

The basic setup with 2 Plasma Guns is superb for the SW who can use the Drop Pod, this means that the weapons themselves are useful from turn one. Also if you get shot up you still regroup in auto, which keeps the same special weapons around for longer. In the CSM case it is simply throw a squad at the enemy, get blasted, throw another, get blasted and repeat the whole....

 

Now to fan a bit of codex creep but has anyone considered the implication of 7 bolters, one Plasma Gun and one Multimelta/Heavy Bolter and one Combiweapon in Rapid Fire range, with rerolls to hit, up in your face due to the Drop Pod in turn one? And to boot, cheap as chips,...

[RapatoR]

I doubt it- theyve been bringing other books in line with C:SW pricing- expensive HQs, cheap as chips troops, and heavy support that runs efficiently if you want it to or makes a heck of a boom if you invest the points.

Well I would share your optimism but when we compare CSM and tacs in 5th and 6th we see that in 5th: CSM was 1 point cheper, had truegrit and +1 ld, while tacs had ATSKNF, Combat squads and Chapter tactics. Many people considered this to be arguably balanced. In 6th CSM is 1 point cheaper and nothing, tacs have (buffed) ATSKNF, Combat sqads and (buffed) Chapter tactics. Honestly I dont see how this balances out. I suspect that BC will drop 2 pts and GH 1 pt, whille staying the same or getting even better.

 

But I will be happy to be proven wrong.

 

This is not to say that basic CSM are worst unit ever, I just claim I dont see their pricing as logical and balaced, within context of other 6th ed. books and I fear that other 6th ed. books will stretch this iussue further. And IMO you dont even need to lower their cost, just give them a two or three basic special rules/features (like in 5th) and it is done.

[Tenebris]

Truth be told a CSM should be an uber astartes, a demigod. With:

 

WS 5

BS 5

S 5

T 5

W 1

I 5

A 1

Ld 10

Sv 3+

 

A super marine in short, priced with 20 points base per model. That would be a fluffy CSM, upgradable, useful and properly portrayed as one of the fallen astartes, a dark demigod who lives and comes from hell itself. Than one might actually see a link with the cultists as the human dregs that they are. Upgrade that with a Terminator for 40 points per model base and you have what CSM should be, an elite army with a dark and magical vibe. 

 

No need for power weapons or uber gear like the Grey Knights, no need for tons of fancy stuff but a brutally strong marine that is actually a veteran of a ten thousand years of constant war. In such a way, the Champion of Chaos rule would have some sense, so too the lack of options but still a cruel basic unit that point by point outclasses most troops out there but suffers severely as an elite, as it should be, as it is in the fluff. In short a similar thing to the Warriors of Chaos from Fantasy. Strong, vicious, effective but with severe downsides too. 

 

Well IMO when devising a Chaos Space Marines codex the reference should be put on the current Grey Knights codex instead on Codex: Space Marines. Between Paladins (ubermarines), standard Grey Knights and Inquisitorial Henchmen you have the full scope of Chaos in a nutshell. Very strong elite units paired with cheap and expendable fodder, with a twist of magic and arcane weaponry and xeno scum to spice it all. 

[the jeske]

 

Honestly I dont see how this balances out.

4 helldrakes under 2k points.

[RapatoR]

Truth be told a CSM should be an uber astartes, a demigod. With:

 

WS 5

BS 5

S 5

T 5

W 1

I 5

A 1

Ld 10

Sv 3+

 

A super marine in short, priced with 20 points base per model. That would be a fluffy CSM, upgradable, useful and properly portrayed as one of the fallen astartes, a dark demigod who lives and comes from hell itself. Than one might actually see a link with the cultists as the human dregs that they are. Upgrade that with a Terminator for 40 points per model base and you have what CSM should be, an elite army with a dark and magical vibe. 

Well I can`t really agree with this. Apart from 20 pts being too low for such statline, lorewise it can hardly hold ground. From what I have read from books (Night Lords trilogy for example), chaos marines (even being veterans) have pretty hard time fighting loyalists: First claw, even being (arguably) best warriros warband has to offer, have pretty hard time deling with BA and Genesis Chapter. Vandred, a new blood seems as capable fighter as any other from first claw.

Sure there can be such capable warriors but they are likely to be part of chosen or to lead a squad/warband.