Chaos Space Marines: Making The Best of a Bad Unit

[daveNYC]

VotLW gaining access to vet skills?  Sure.  CSM getting 5s across the board for stats?  Crazy talk.

[minigun762]

I think the idea was more about how the "average" Chaos Marine should be superior to the "average" loyalist.

[Excessus]

I think the idea was more about how the "average" Chaos Marine should be superior to the "average" loyalist.

Well, to be fair, the "average" CSM is just like an "average" SM. Sure, a few more decades of experience in general, but nothing that would warrant a stat-increase or even a special rule. They are basically newly recuited or created renegades. The chosen is where it's at. These are your real veterans, with milennia of experience (not all have 10k, but heck, even 5-6k or 2k is quite impressive!) they should have had Ws5 Bs5 and veteran skills for an appropriate price. Making them meh, is only on of the faults of the codex...

[minionboy]

Anyone who says "A CSM squad cannot afford that since three wounds and you run most of the times." Has a few things to learn about statistics. With a LD9 champion, you have a 16% chance to flee (8.33% with VotLW). Those are the same odds of failing a terminator armor save (or half as likely), which does not happen "most of the time."

 

I know people want CSM to be bad, but there is not point in exaggerating the facts to try and make them sound worse than they already are.

[Tenebris]

But in one single swoop if your champion dies in a duel or you loose combat the risk to fail discipline increase by manifold. We also tend to forget that our meager discipline accounts for loosing things like Pinning check which can be very nasty for the CSM, especially if you kit them for melee. Also our discipline character, the basic aspiring champion is snipable, but the same can be said for most MEQ armies but the others regroup in auto, this is the trick, we have to roll to see if we stay or flee.

 

I tend to look at discipline with some worry since I usually get to play against several armies that either force my discipline rolls with powers or due to mass mortars (IG) which are Pinning and that more often than not ruins my day, badly. And yes there is a big difference if you have 30 points of special weapons that stay in the fight or loose a turn of fire due to morale fail. I have seen many times my CSM being pushed slowly backward loosing the regroup roll, but more than that it irked me that those two Plasma Guns that I payed for and kept them safe are now running backward instead of forward. 

 

Even the basic IG has a way to reroll discipline, via the Commissar as a starter (making them better than us in melee to some degree) and also due to the Get Back! order. So the pricey Veterans actually have a chance to stay in the fight and not flee at first moment notice. 

 

The problem is how Discipline was handled in our book. They made our marines normal grunts who have to roll for discipline. So far nothing overtly horrible. The problem comes with the morale boosters in the form of Lord/Apostle/Special Character with Fearless which works great, Fearless Cult Troops which also work good but the basic CSM has to rely on an Icon. Not a passive upgrade but, here the problem comes, an active upgrade. The Icon of Vengeance, though pricey, works as long as it is around. Once it is removes we are back to discipline problems.

 

The other codexes offer some sort of long range way to recover discipline (order, special rule, reroll) but we are back to fleeing when we get our Icon sniped or even worst our Aspiring Champion killed either in duel or by precision fire. I agree with you on the point that Fearless is not always a good thing but it is way better than no discipline rerolls or special rules.

 

This is only half the problem. The true pain comes in the form of psychic powers that force you to take discipline rolls, weapons that lower it or other such scary things. I had a cruel proof of that when I was playing the Crusade of Fire campaign and I have lost two of my squads to a campaign rule that forced the possession of my units. I failed miserably across three games to properly roll for discipline and I struggled, those two Fearless troops the only thing that kept me floating.

 

With the current tendency for powers and weapons to have some sort of S/T/I/Ld tests this will only become an ever more prominent problem. So while I fully agree that having to roll for Ld is sometimes a good thing, I think that this model does not sit well in a Marine army, especially one who lacks tangible ways to quickly restore the units that are falling back.

 

So the crux is not the failure on Ld tests, but the problem to reasonably restore the broken squad and return to fight. 

 

In short, a vicious player is capable to either pin our unmodified CSM to the ground or play jojo with them.

[Xenith]

Truth be told a CSM should be an uber astartes, a demigod. With:

 

Big disgree there. I think Lords should have bonus S and or T (warhammer chaos lords have +1S and T over regular warriors), but leave basic troops as they are.

 

Chaos should have the options to build massive, scary good characters that can survive getting into combat, supported by decent amounts of decent base troops (csm/warriors) and hordes of chaff (cultists/marauders).

 

The leadership issues take their cue from fantasy - you need to have some kind of character in there to keep their Ld up.

 

Making all icons provide stubborn would be good, maybe too good. At least make them un-snipe-able.

[Tenebris]

Well it was an exercise, I love Warriors of Chaos and I think that they portray well Chaos. Still I am of the idea that the GK portray way better the likeness of Chaos than the CSM. You have some really elite units that can either be the backbone of your army or force multipliers, you have numerous cheap units that are varied and fun (psykers-wizard thralls, assassins, warriors...you can make the cultist force of your dream) and sadly their engines of war also provide a much better interpretation of the daemonic or cursed vehicles. A psyfleman dread is one of the best units to portray a Thousand Sons Hellbrute or other arcane engines, the dreaded Dreadknight included.

 

Also it is sad than an older codex has a more arcane and baroque armoury than ours, that lends well to display the strange and mystical weapons employed by the CSM. Get in there xeno mercenaries, archeotech, human and astartes heroes and all inbetween and you have a codex that can easily represent the myriad of chaos warbands and cults. While ours cannot. 

[Sception]

While we're wish listing, if I were to design CSMs they'd have marine statlines, but stubborn and hatred (loyalists) built in.  What the veterans upgrade did would depend on your legion choice, with the generic / black legion benefit be preferred enemy: loyalists, while alpha legion might gain infiltrate, etc.  As per the upcoming marine legion rules, the effects and costs might be different for different units.  Instead of artificer armor, chaos would have a 'chaos armor' upgrade for Power armor and Terminator armor representing armor that had been exposed to the warp for so long that it had basically taken on a life of its own.  The upgrade would grant fear and feel no pain, and would come standard on possessed and be available as an upgrade to ICs and elite units.

 

Chosen would come with ubergrit and veterans, and have access to chaos armor as an upgrade.  Cult units would have or have access to the armor upgrade as well, apart form thousand sons who don't mutate any more, but they'd have FNP anyway because they're empty armor.

 

Wide access to FNP on infantry and IWND on vehicles would be among the characteristic features of the faction.

[RapatoR]

Heh wishlisting you say? Lets see...

 

 

Treacherous: Chaos space marines are being exposed to terrors of warp and almost constant fighting, thus their resolve is naturally strong. However they are well known for their desire to preserve their own skin, when reterating they do not hesitate leave their comrades behind. To represent this you can reroll both failed and passed morale checks. Before players are rolling out for sweeping advance, nominate any number of models within same close combat, that will be abbadoned when retreating. For every model abbadoned your unit counts as having 1 bonus initiative up to maximal number of 10. The nominated models are then removed from play and players roll out for sweeping advance.

(Note that this allows you to sacrifice even models from other units that are retreating from same close combat, for example you can sacrifice Cultist models to get bonus initiative for your Chaos marines.)

 

When unit regroups it can move up to 3" and it can shoot and assault as normal.

 

Furthermore this rule grants you reroll against failed leadership tests caused from fear rule by units from Codex: Chaos Space Marines and Codex: Daemons.

[40kChrista]

Heh wishlisting you say? Lets see...

Treacherous: Chaos space marines are being exposed to terrors of warp and almost constant fighting, thus their resolve is naturally strong. However they are well known for their desire to preserve their own skin, when reterating they do not hesitate leave their comrades behind. To represent this you can reroll both failed and passed morale checks. Before players are rolling out for sweeping advance, nominate any number of models within same close combat, that will be abbadoned when retreating. For every model abbadoned your unit counts as having 1 bonus initiative up to maximal number of 10. The nominated models are then removed from play and players roll out for sweeping advance.

(Note that this allows you to sacrifice even models from other units that are retreating from same close combat, for example you can sacrifice Cultist models to get bonus initiative for your Chaos marines.)

When unit regroups it can move up to 3" and it can shoot and assault as normal.

Furthermore this rule grants you reroll against failed leadership tests caused from fear rule by units from Codex: Chaos Space Marines and Codex: Daemons.

I'd play that... no questions, that would fit great, be extremely fluffy, and shut people up at the same time. The only thing I would change is dropping the bonus for sacrificed cultists... CSM ain't got time for that. Cultists are supposed to be fodder after all.... cannon fodder.

[Xenith]

The treachery rule is excellent, and would use that in a heartbeat!

 

Choosing to reroll passed or failed tests is golden. They technically know no fear, being detached from emotion, and can decide to stay in a fight they might win.

[Sception]

I'd play it, but it sounds a bit more complicated than I'd like, particularly the 'leaving people behind for cumulative +1s on the flee' bit.  Just leave it at 'reroll passed or failed', imo.

[RapatoR]

Well a first thought of possibility to mix cultist squads with basic CSM. That would make them true cannon fodder (combined with shooting rules of this edition) and Treacherous rule could also make cultists a chainsword (replace with suitable CC weapon) fodder:

CSM1: Dude we can't win this, we must retreat.

CSM2: But those succubi are like I 10, if we try to retreat they will catch us, no doubt.

CSM1: Thats true, but hey I have an idea.

*turns to cultists*

CSM1: Hey guys, me and my buddies need to go.... check... something... in.. the backfield. Could you stay here and fight those succubi alone for a while?

Cultists: Sure no problem.

*screams*

CSM: Ok they totally got this, lets go.

 

But yea mixing two units in the same CC would probably be confusing.

 

The whole idea of rerolling was to make CSM not only more reliable in passing those checks, but also make them more likely to fail those checks (if you want it). 

 

Anyway that initiative tradeoff for models is just to make sure that when you decide tu run away, your CSM will not be swept so easily (as long as you are willing to sacrifice some models). It could be easily replaced with set bonus initiative (2?/3?) when rolling for sweeping advance (in exchange for loosing 2/3 models or forcing squad to pass armour save), but I feel that this way it is more realistic. If you want to escape from enemy that is swift (has higher initiative) you need to leave more men behind, to have chance of suceeding.

And personally I don't think it would be so hard to apply it. Example: Your captain is I 5, my squad is running away, I decide to leave three guys behind, my squad now counts as I 7, lets roll off for sweeping advance. If you win squad is swept and removed, if I win I remove three models and disengage as normal.

[Iron_Within]

I really like the 'treacherous' idea, paints them as evil self serving swine but still with astartes training. I personally have no problem with the cultists being left to die like that and would give a good reason to charge the cultists in with the marines, maybe because they are 'worthless' it takes two cultists per +1 Int not one?. Currently there is little point as they just get killed and lose the combat. As I understood the treacherous idea RapatoR it was precisely that, I would say it was slightly different; after failing Morale but before rolling, nominate the number of models you wish to sacrifice (as before), each model gives +1 initiative. These models are removed either way, so if you roll a 6 and get away those three models you chose to sacrifice are still removed. This would give an agony of choice and the necessity of tactical decision making.

 

The Champion of Chaos rule I would have loved them to continue to allow you to make a 'look out sir' save. Maybe at only 4+ (rather than 2+ for IC) it would represent the villainous Champion throwing others into the path of the killing strike as we've always seen villains do; especially when the the Champion realises he's bitten off more than he could chew.

[the jeske]

The Champion of Chaos rule I would have loved them to continue to allow

you to make a 'look out sir' save. Maybe at only 4+ (rather than 2+ for

IC) it would represent the villainous Champion throwing others into the

path of the killing strike as we've always seen villains do; especially

when the the Champion realises he's bitten off more than he could chew.

but if the normal dude wins the challange he rolls on the boon table , get Char status and the one that used LoS! is removed [gods don't want weak followers].

[daboarder]

I'd have just let them buy SS's (or even the sigil, which I just realised is stupid expensive for what it does unless your MoT), I mean if we are forced to challenge then at least let me spend the points to make a decent go of it.....

[Trevak Dal]

I don't recall a single instance of my Chaos Space Marines being swept by something not a Monstrous Creature.

 

In truth, they've always done pretty good work for me.  I've said it before, but I feel that too often I allow the "Group Think" to cloud my own opinions of how I feel about things.

[zyl-]

Wide access to FNP on infantry and IWND on vehicles would be among the characteristic features of the faction.

Our troops would almost be as strong as the basic necron! You just need to get them to ignore instant death yet.

[minigun762]

I don't recall a single instance of my Chaos Space Marines being swept by something not a Monstrous Creature.

 

In truth, they've always done pretty good work for me.  I've said it before, but I feel that too often I allow the "Group Think" to cloud my own opinions of how I feel about things.

 

How often do you find that they're in combat with a nasty unit?

 

Your basic CSM, especially with a combat mark or ubergrit still is a fairly decent assault option for killing other army's basic troops.

[Elrahir]

Sorry dudes, i fail to understand why your csm are an utter failure in melee combat, especially fighting their loyalist dogs brothas, you must be doing something wrong. UNLESS you go head to head with deathwing and draigowing armies ONLY.. Space pups? Are you serious? You can have Rage and Counter - Attack and at a pretty cheap point cost actually. And please tell me when the Emperor's lapdogs can include a Bloodthirster or anything else that is good in melee (except mephi, but still.. BA codex) and we may talk again.

 

Mod Edit: Careful with the word choice please.

[the jeske]

You can have Rage and Counter - Attack and at a pretty cheap point cost actually.

sigh. Ok let us do this once again ...

 

CSM 10 dudes 2 plasmas ccw/pistols MoK Icon of Wrath. 210pts. We have not added power weapons we can make the unit cost 200 and get melta guns.No vet bought either.

 

GH 10 dudes .2 plasma . totem . MoTW . 185pts . This means that the SW player has a 15pts adventage over our unit which is enough for him to get a power ax for this unit[something SW don't do because it makes GH units cost too much] . they also have a range adventage [ultra grit>ccw+pistol] and ATKNF . they have build in counter attack and accute senses.

 

If we try to make the CSM a bit like the GH . add a power weapon of some sort and ultra grit we are looking at a difference of 35 pts which is enough for the GH to buy a rhino or considering most armies will run 3 such troop units the 105 pts can be invested in to a rune priest.

 

Ergo no CSM are not cheap comparing to loyalist .

[Elrahir]

I didn't say they are cheap, the upgrade though is not cost-devastating. Yes, i know one of the main flaws is the must accept challenges rule, i never bother to buy the champion a power weapon, IF the gods (of dice) see them worthy, they can win challenges with their bare hands or a knife or a dismembered part of another marine, makes no difference to me dead or alive, i always go for the VotlW, it's kinda unique as an upgrade and means that we hate em. I do not go for Icon, especially on 10 man marine squads, i give them the mark and veterans, 2 plasmas, a rhino and maybe 4x ccw if the points are there. So, 235 pts vs 220 ( for a podded GH unit ) as u said beloved jeske 15 pts advantage, THE END OF TIMES HAS COME. I never knew that csm players have turned to little whining bitches...

[Iron Father Ferrum]

That's a 15 point advantage per squad.  Across, say, four squads -- a solid core for 1850 or 2000 points -- that's a 60-point advantage that can be applied somewhere else.  That's a couple of storm shields for some Wolf Guard, most of a Razorback, a pair of power fists to stick on those Grey Hunters that alters the balance of power towards the Wolves even more in close combat.  Nothing exists in a vacuum, Elrahir. 

[RapatoR]

Again, we should compare units from 6 ed. dexes: CSM, DA tacs and rumoured SM tacs, not with 5th edition unit, as we have seen that troops are getting cheaper. And with those I think that CSM don't feel so strong for what thez pay as basic cost. I still field them and I will cntinue to do so, but I can and I will voice my opinion about it.

[Elrahir]

Again, what can wolves do in close combat vs 2 or 3 Greater Daemons and Princes, what can they do in melee against blobs of letters or daemonettes, how can they overcome the tar-pitting of cultist squads and the destruction force heldrakes bring? Storm Shields and Razorbacks? Ok, it's called combining forces and chaos have the tools to do it better than wolves, the melee turns always towards chaos, at least from personal experience i've never lost to a wolf.

Plus, the 60 pts advantage u say is assuming that the chaos have to spam 4 squads of csm, spam lists are bad, and u should feel bad. This is why you shouldn't compare codices like they are the same, leave the spam to 5th and to no-brainers. Hells, even our bikers can't be compared to other bikers in other codices FA section...