Chaos Space Marines: Making The Best of a Bad Unit

[Sception]

I've lost to plenty of wolves, but that's besides the point - I'm not a very good player and my dice are terrible regardless. Either way, though, Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, Daemonette hordes, cultists (though cultists don't tar pit worth beans unless you put a fearless HQ in them, and then they're more 'character delivery' than 'tar pit'), and hell drakes? I don't think anybody's calling them bad units. This thread is about 'Chaos Space Marines' the unit, not 'Chaos Space Marines' the army, and you sure as heck don't need to field any 'Chaos Space Marines' the unit to make an army full of FMCs, Drakes, and cultists.

 

I don't think anybody's complaining that Chaos can't be a winning army, or part of a winning army. The complaint is that none of the things that are good about chaos are the 'chaos space marines' themselves, and that the more effective a CSM army one wants to field, the fewer actual marines one should use. The complaints are that we signed up for this faction to play chaos space marines, not chaos cultists plus a pair of heldrakes and some allied daemons.

[Elrahir]

All i am saying is that we can't compare our space marines with the loyalist counter-parts. Not having ATSKNF is justified by the support they get, and please no more ATSKNF whining, we never had it, we never will and this is what csm is all about, playing in a different way to over-come this and using other utilities in our disposal, if you don't like that fact, don't play CSM, do not call them bad though. They are not bad, they are bad-ass.

[Sception]

We don't want it, we just want the lack of it to be acknowledged in our costs and options.

 

'our marines are garbage, but that's ok because we have cultists and drakes which aren't!' Is terrible design, because it just leads to CSM armies with no CSMs, just cultists and drakes. That's entirely the problem.

[Elrahir]

You are playing the wrong army then, my csm are fine and never had a problem with them.

[Fibonacci]

You are playing the wrong army then, my csm are fine and never had a problem with them.

Are you still using the 3.5 codex?

[RapatoR]

Again this is about unit, not about army. If one unit is costed at 14 pts with +1 Ld, Hatred (Marines) and another is costed at 14 pts with ATSKNF, Combat Squads and Chapter Tactics (which includes one or two special rules) you get feeling that latter is better than former.

 

Of course there is "don't compare them in void" issue. CSM can have Autocannons and two special weapons in squad. This is IMO balanced out by fact that SM have PlasCan and MM and can take heavy weapon in 5 man squad. There is also issue of Combat squads helping SM tacs in heavy weapon effectiveness.

And when you get to transport options CSM have rhinos or LR. Compare it to transport options for SM tacs and you get much bigger range.

 

Ok, CSM can take marks (for a price). This makes them arguably (tzeentch) better than basic tacticals. However this is not surprising as they cost more then basic tacs. And that is whole point of assigning point cost to a unit.

 

Why shouldn't be things that are evenly costed equally powerfull? And why shouldn't be unmarked CSM as viable as marked ones?

[Elrahir]

I wish i did bro, those were the days and that was a hell of a gem-dex. Anyways, no i am playing 6th and i am using chaos space marines (THE UNIT, for those need to clarify), guess what, they aren't bad at all. It's just i can't stand those guys comparing oranges with tomatoes and the REIGN of the internet wisdom. It's a game involving tactics and brains, not spam lists of that X uber-unit. This is a complete refusal to hear that this is not SW, or crons or GK or whatever and that you have to play in a complete different way than those codices to achieve that objective or that advantage are a complete HERESY. Well, that is why i prefer heretics over lapdogs.

 

I will have to agree that the recent codex doesn't offer army wide synergies like the new sm codex will, and pays no heed to the fluff at all (now khan and lyssander have to ally to be in the same army, while Khârn and Lusious can be in the same army just for the lulz, and besides a broken flyer didnt give us much)

 

CSM are not bad, players are bad, play what you want to play, do not listen to anyone, playtest again and again until u find your own synergy between your army list's choosings. Just for once, especially you chaos players, do not be sheep.

[Excessus]

So basically what you are saying is that you are better than most other C:CSM players?

[Gumo9]

I agree with Elrahir. I like to play "non-optimised" lists and the enjoyment of the game is finding how to make stuff work. Not press the auto-win button, any fool can do that.

 

Just my 2p

 

G

[Elrahir]

So basically what you are saying is that you are better than most other C:CSM players?

 

I am not a good player, but if that makes you happy. YES, i am the best. And you are here just to make that very constructive comment, you've won the internet. Here, take your theoretical money prize.

[Ammonius]

 

So basically what you are saying is that you are better than most other C:CSM players?

 

I am not a good player, but if that makes you happy. YES, i am the best. And you are here just to make that very constructive comment, you've won the internet. Here, take your theoretical money prize.

 

Glad to hear from an enthusiastic CSM player! Now it's time to share the wealth!

 

You have hinted in generalities to tactics, brains, and not following trends, so now let's hear the details.

 

Please post your army list, and give us an example of how many times a week you play, what you play against, and what synergies you have found in your playtesting. Be as specific as possible, maybe even post a batrep or two so that we can see what you are doing to get things to work. A fresh perspective is always a good thing!

[Rayray]

So basically what you are saying is that you are better than most other C:CSM players?

Considering WH40k is a strategy/tabletop game and he seems to be getting better results without an instant win button, yes, he is.

 

 

 

So basically what you are saying is that you are better than most other C:CSM players?

 

I am not a good player, but if that makes you happy. YES, i am the best. And you are here just to make that very constructive comment, you've won the internet. Here, take your theoretical money prize.

 

Glad to hear from an enthusiastic CSM player! Now it's time to share the wealth!

 

You have hinted in generalities to tactics, brains, and not following trends, so now let's hear the details.

 

Please post your army list, and give us an example of how many times a week you play, what you play against, and what synergies you have found in your playtesting. Be as specific as possible, maybe even post a batrep or two so that we can see what you are doing to get things to work. A fresh perspective is always a good thing!

This sounds like mocking/ a snipe

[Shifte]

*Reaches for popcorn*

 

http://i.imgur.com/F4pfWHN.png

 

CHAOS POPCORN. MADE OF CADIAN KNUCKLES AND TEARS.

*****

 

But, in an attempt to try and get this back on topic -

 

Do you think the issue is the units, or the army wide special rules? If Chaos Marines got an equivalent to Chapter Tactics, then I think there'd be no issue with both units having the same points cost. I run 30 Chaos marines in my 1750 points army, and I quite like how they get on.

[Rayray]

Perhaps future supplements would contain csm units with vet skills or something to balance?

[Shifte]

Perhaps future supplements would contain csm units with vet skills or something to balance?

 

That'd be cool.

[Elrahir]

Fair enough, i will share and you will comment, as my gaming club's teammates also did comment bad (mocked) on my list: 

 

This list was not intended to be my final list, as i always wanted that one because that guy said that unit is great aka SHEEP.

 

Anyway, this list came from what i own atm:

 

HQ - Chaos Biker Lord ( MoK, D.Axe, Sigil )

      - Bloodthirster ( Greater Reward, Exalted Reward ( 3++ most of the time for my drake and letters ))

 

Troops

      - 10 x Cultists

      - 10 x CSM : ( MoK, VotlW, 2 x Plasma, Rhino, Champion : melta-bomb) 

      - 10 x CSM : ( MoK, VotlW, 2 x Plasma, Rhino, Champion : melta-bomb) 

      - 10 x Bloodletters

 

Fast Attack

      - 7 x Chaos Bikers : ( MoK, IoW, 2 x Melta )

      - Baledrake

 

Heavy Support

      - Chaos Vindicator ( Dirge, Combi - Bolter)

      - Chaos Vindicator ( Dirge, Combi - Bolter)

      - Chaos Predator ( AutoLas, Havoc Launcher)

 

I participated with this list in a tournament the previous month (haven't played again after that, job and personal stuff) and got 1st place among 23 other players. I have a terrible memory and if i am not writing down the battle as it happens i can't make decent bat reps after.  The main asset i utilized in most of my battles was target threat saturation and careful positioning ( vindis are a hell of imposers ) until i reached close combat, then it was steamrolled to victory.

[Brother Heinrich]

 

So basically what you are saying is that you are better than most other C:CSM players?

Considering WH40k is a strategy/tabletop game and he seems to be getting better results without an instant win button, yes, he is.

 

> 

 

So basically what you are saying is that you are better than most other C:CSM players?

 

I am not a good player, but if that makes you happy. YES, i am the best. And you are here just to make that very constructive comment, you've won the internet. Here, take your theoretical money prize.

 

Glad to hear from an enthusiastic CSM player! Now it's time to share the wealth!

 

You have hinted in generalities to tactics, brains, and not following trends, so now let's hear the details.

 

Please post your army list, and give us an example of how many times a week you play, what you play against, and what synergies you have found in your playtesting. Be as specific as possible, maybe even post a batrep or two so that we can see what you are doing to get things to work. A fresh perspective is always a good thing!

This sounds like mocking/ a snipe

 

Snipe or no, I'd be interested to see what works with regular CSM's, I haven't played many games in 6th but the list I built for my Night Lords feels fluffy as well as semi-competitve. Basic breakdown is:

 

- Lord w/AoBF, Powerfist, SoC, and TDA

- 4x Terminators w/axes and combi-plas

- 10x CSMs, champ w/sword, melta bombs, 2x plasma guns, Rhino w/Dirgecaster

- 10x CSMs, champ w/sword, melta bombs, 2x plasma guns, Rhino w/Dirgecaster

- 3x Bikes, MoN, Melta Bombs

- 3x Bikes, MoN, Melta Bombs

- Baledrake

- Landraider w/dirgecaster and TL Bolter

 

That's at 1500pts.

 

I played a crap load of 4th and 5th, and granted this edition is a new ballgame, but making every component of your army something that can't be ignored has always been a worthwhile strategy for me. Our strength relies in close range firefights and knowing exactly what the weaknesses and shortcomings of each unit are.

[the jeske]

We are suppose to fix this list ?

[the jeske]

 

Fair enough, i will share and you will comment, as my gaming club's teammates also did comment bad (mocked) on my list: 

 

This list was not intended to be my final list, as i always wanted that one because that guy said that unit is great aka SHEEP.

 

Anyway, this list came from what i own atm:

 

HQ - Chaos Biker Lord ( MoK, D.Axe, Sigil )

      - Bloodthirster ( Greater Reward, Exalted Reward ( 3++ most of the time for my drake and letters ))

 

Troops

      - 10 x Cultists

      - 10 x CSM : ( MoK, VotlW, 2 x Plasma, Rhino, Champion : melta-bomb) 

      - 10 x CSM : ( MoK, VotlW, 2 x Plasma, Rhino, Champion : melta-bomb) 

      - 10 x Bloodletters

 

Fast Attack

      - 7 x Chaos Bikers : ( MoK, IoW, 2 x Melta )

      - Baledrake

 

Heavy Support

      - Chaos Vindicator ( Dirge, Combi - Bolter)

      - Chaos Vindicator ( Dirge, Combi - Bolter)

      - Chaos Predator ( AutoLas, Havoc Launcher)

 

 

 

I have a few question . First how do you get vindicators in to range to use Dirge casters .

Second isn't runing 7 bikers cost in efficient ? the bonus gained comparing to a 5 or 6 biker unit seems rather small specialy considering the ax lord . Also considering the ax lord , why isnt the asp champion from the biker unit armed , when it is one of the few places where a power ax can actualy be useful .

Third thing , why take bloodletters as troops when PB are a lot more efficient

Fourth question , why Take MoK on units that are clearly not ment to do melee . the points from the marks the 2 extra bikers and cultists and havock launchers could be used to upgrade the cultists to a more resilient csm unit.

[Scribe]

I dont think he's looking for optimization of his list, hes posted his list, and mentioned in generalities how he used it.

 

CSM are not world beaters, they are not the most efficient of units, and if you get right down to the brass tacks, if you buff them in the wrong way, they can still be swept and your 200+ unit has just burned you.

 

CSM are best used (imo) as either a gap filler, or something you expect to see combat range and tailor for it.

 

Near naked double plas is fine and well, but your leadership still stinks, and if you get caught (remember our opponents are playing to win) your not all that good in combat.

 

So what do you do?

 

MoK for one is a nice combat buff.

VotLW is decent as a LD boost.

Staying away from stuff that guts you (MC's) would be a good step.

 

The thing is, that impacts all MEQ line units. Grey Hunters are not world beaters, they just dont get swept. Same with Tac Squads. If you want CSM to move forward (and I feel the book really wants us to) then cover your bases a bit. Look at your weapon upgrades, swap a few Bolters for CCW, MoK/VotLW, and *gasp* maybe throw a weapon on that champ for at least mutually assured destruction (I like LC's), unless its a near autoloss challenge (MC's).

 

They are not killers, but they dont have to suck either, they just need a bit of investment, and a bit of support (DP's, Beatsticks, Dreads even) to keep the combat in our favour, to avoid that one big weakness, getting swept.

[Elrahir]

I did say comment, didn't ask for advice, as i said it was made by models i had. Now to the questions jeske:

 

- I did a reckless flat out with my 1 still living vindi so i can bubble stop the tau (riptides and a few warriors) from overwatching my 2 wound Bloodlthirster. I honestly do not know exactly how their over-watch rule works, but i know they have one there..

 

- If you are not running a 4-5 man invisibility (lucky enough with the spell rolls) biker unit with a sorcerer, experience says better run a larger with an Axe-Lord ( i still remember you advising me to take biker lord instead of jugger-lord for my bikers attachment, thank you)

 

- Bloodletters with 3++ are IMPOSING, when deepstriked right, a whole lot of 3 squads of long fags did focus them down because they deepstriked in their face. ( believe me, it works )

 

- And for the last question, i like my csm to go toe to toe with my fluff, i maybe have thrown a couple of extra ccs with some points remaining. Anyway, i am not eager to throw them into combat always, as they are the backbone of my army, but they can clear some grey hunter without much help if u get the charge when they arive via ds drop-pods (tactics)

[Fibonacci]

Fair enough, i will share and you will comment, as my gaming club's teammates also did comment bad (mocked) on my list: 

 

This list was not intended to be my final list, as i always wanted that one because that guy said that unit is great aka SHEEP.

 

Anyway, this list came from what i own atm:

 

HQ - Chaos Biker Lord ( MoK, D.Axe, Sigil )

      - Bloodthirster ( Greater Reward, Exalted Reward ( 3++ most of the time for my drake and letters ))

 

Troops

      - 10 x Cultists

      - 10 x CSM : ( MoK, VotlW, 2 x Plasma, Rhino, Champion : melta-bomb) 

      - 10 x CSM : ( MoK, VotlW, 2 x Plasma, Rhino, Champion : melta-bomb) 

      - 10 x Bloodletters

 

Fast Attack

      - 7 x Chaos Bikers : ( MoK, IoW, 2 x Melta )

      - Baledrake

 

Heavy Support

      - Chaos Vindicator ( Dirge, Combi - Bolter)

      - Chaos Vindicator ( Dirge, Combi - Bolter)

      - Chaos Predator ( AutoLas, Havoc Launcher)

 

I participated with this list in a tournament the previous month (haven't played again after that, job and personal stuff) and got 1st place among 23 other players. I have a terrible memory and if i am not writing down the battle as it happens i can't make decent bat reps after.  The main asset i utilized in most of my battles was target threat saturation and careful positioning ( vindis are a hell of imposers ) until i reached close combat, then it was steamrolled to victory.

For the cost of marks and icons you could add another unit of letters.  That way you leave close combat to the close combat troops and the shooting to the I-can't-assault-because-I'm-rapid-firing-plasma-anyway troops.  Drop the slow moving tanks for a second drake and spend the remainder on oblits.  I think you would be pleasently suprised with how well it performs.  Right now the thirster and drake are carrying the list anyway.  May as well give them some extra support.

[Ammonius]

I did say comment, didn't ask for advice, as i said it was made by models i had. Now to the questions jeske:

- I did a reckless flat out with my 1 still living vindi so i can bubble stop the tau (riptides and a few warriors) from overwatching my 2 wound Bloodlthirster. I honestly do not know exactly how their over-watch rule works, but i know they have one there..

- If you are not running a 4-5 man invisibility (lucky enough with the spell rolls) biker unit with a sorcerer, experience says better run a larger with an Axe-Lord ( i still remember you advising me to take biker lord instead of jugger-lord for my bikers attachment, thank you)

- Bloodletters with 3++ are IMPOSING, when deepstriked right, a whole lot of 3 squads of long fags did focus them down because they deepstriked in their face. ( believe me, it works )

- And for the last question, i like my csm to go toe to toe with my fluff, i maybe have thrown a couple of extra ccs with some points remaining. Anyway, i am not eager to throw them into combat always, as they are the backbone of my army, but they can clear some grey hunter without much help if u get the charge when they arive via ds drop-pods (tactics)

Your list looks pretty cool, with strong units and a good theme what total points value is that? (I don't own a Daemons codex)

Big Congratulations on beating 23 folks in a tournament, that's a HUGE achievement, I can't imagine winning 2 games in a row, let alone that!

What I haven't seen you comment on is what you use your CSM squads for. How does the MoK go with Plasma Guns? Do you get good utility from the balanced loadout?

PS, I too have run Vindicators behind a line of chaos spawn for the cover save, and made it to the enemy's frontlines. Seige Shields let you drive them like a monster truck and blast through/over LOS blocking terrain.

[RapatoR]

*Reaches for popcorn*

 

http://i.imgur.com/F4pfWHN.png

 

CHAOS POPCORN. MADE OF CADIAN KNUCKLES AND TEARS.

 

*****

 

But, in an attempt to try and get this back on topic -

 

Do you think the issue is the units, or the army wide special rules? If Chaos Marines got an equivalent to Chapter Tactics, then I think there'd be no issue with both units having the same points cost. I run 30 Chaos marines in my 1750 points army, and I quite like how they get on.

You sir deserve an award.

You made ma laugh and hit the nail on the head.

 

-1 point for CSM would surely make them underpriced (you have DA scouts for that) and some kind of rule(s) would make them feel more equal to loyalist. (Back in this topic, before it descended into "you are wrong" contest, I even posted one attempt.)

 

Heck I wouldn't mind if they were same price as loyalists, as long as they have rules to match them. (And no, by that I don't mean they should have same rules, just to match loyalists on price/rules.)

[Elrahir]

Yes, we are missing the point here. The thing is that if you can find a synergy that works better for your army or your kind of playstyle, you can customize your csm squad to be in line with the rest of your list. For example, 5-man noise marines with blastmaster combined with csm with ccw or ultra-grit, mos and icon marching forward with rhinos, or you can use huron to infiltrate 20-man close combat marines with flamers, or 20 shooty marines, Even Iron Warrior themed csm with autocannons and combi weapons sound beast. CSM are so unique in abilities and kinds of playstyle that can't be compared with the loyalists in any way imaginable. How you play them on the other hand, makes them a good or a bad unit, not their stat-line nor their cost efficiency.