Chaos Space Marines: Making The Best of a Bad Unit

[minigun762]

Most of the discussion in this thread has been productive.

There has been a few off-topic discussions that have derailed the topic at hand and those individuals will be dealt with if they continue.

 

The focus of this discussion is on how best to utilize the basic Chaos Marine. If we feel that we have nothing more constructive to say, then I will close the topic.

 

However, I believe there is meat on this bone so to speak.

[Scribe]

The vibe I get out of people thinking things are toxic, is the same type of responses you get out of many other sites out there when it comes to a unit. There are levels of optimization that people can accept. For some, its all the way to the 'i dont care, if I like the model/fluff' for others, they need to be the 'best' unit by their own criteria. Neither approach is wrong, but its very difficult for both sides to converse.

 

I find the best CSM units, are cheap, and planned to be in combat. My best experience came with MoK, mixed CCW and Bolters (again to keep cost down) and Melta/Flamer, Meltabomb champ, in Rhino w/Havoc.

 

Its not SUPER cheap, but its flexible enough to do good things, and be a generalist.

[Elrahir]

10 man squads with MoK, Vets, 2x Plasma, m.bomb and rhino transport (because i hate footslogging, never worked for me).

I use them as jack of all trades and master of none, i don't pile up all the upgrades they can get, because they are not gonna give me back those points spent, especially the specialist choices like fleet on charge, power weapons (swords or lc), etc. and never give the rhino a havoc launcher, this way it craves for first blood to the opponent.

I know people disagree with the tactic to give them MoK, i do not blame them, they are maybe right, although i find close combat to be more definite even in 6th when you want to lock down units like ig blobs, fire warrior squads and all the shooty blobs and non close combat specialist units that comes to mind. You will have eventually to go in 12'' range so you can rapid fire your bolters/ plasma, why not be ready for an assault?

I do not say this is the most optimal way to use them, plus i can't get the grasp of the idea of talking for a single unit when you will never get to field one unit in any battlefield, CSM are not meant to play the role of the vanguard troops in any case, not for me, they provide mid-field and line breaking support for close combat specialist units in my army, but there are many more ways to use them. More efficiently even, i'll just wait to see yours. Cheers!

[the jeske]

You will have eventually to go in 12'' range so you can rapid fire your bolters/ plasma, why not be ready for an assault?

Because if you rapid fire you don't charge and those tau/IG blobs won't charge you either , while your higher cost , due to upgrades , will mean fewer meq for your opponent to shot at .

 

Ultra grit costs the same and doesn't lock out non MoK HQs out of joining the unit

[Elrahir]

Because if you rapid fire you don't charge and those tau/IG blobs won't charge you either , while your higher cost , due to upgrades , will mean fewer meq for your opponent to shot at .

 

Ultra grit costs the same and doesn't lock out non MoK HQs out of joining the unit

 

Agreed, that's why i always get some extra ccw in my squad (4x most of the time, but that's the part of my secret recipie) to make a better use of the mark, plus if your squad gets to be in front of a blob of ig or fire warriors, do not hesitate to charge it instead of firing at it (make use of the dirge casters there, that's their use), they can outshoot you any day. Plus, a blob of ork shootas, gaunts or anything that is close combat capable will not hesitate to charge you either.

 

Edit: make use of your 35 point boxes too, you can flat them out in the shooting phase to block your enemy from a winning charge or an outshoot.

[the jeske]

But if same points give you a better effect[ultra grit will always give more attacks both at range and at melee then a csm unit that uses mixed ccw+pistol/bolter dudes] then why run MoK ? One could run it to have a 2 special zerker unit [extra range and 2 extra dudes making up for the lower WS and lack of FC] , but then the cost of such a unit is realy high . Or we could be runing a some sort of minimax army . 30x4 zombis and 2xhavockbacks with 5 man bolter MoK dudes with flamers/melta/plasma[depending on what support units are run with those troops] , but that would be a very specific army and we could get a better effect of runing PMs or even the BL chosen the same way .

 

Runing csm in waves , with infiltration is imo the best way to play them. Even if they do take more dmg then rhino squads they have the number adventage on their side. 3 rhinos[most armies that run csm will run around 3-4 units of them] is 2/3 of a cost of a csm unit , that is a bit high. Now am not saying that rhinos are always bad , they aren't [at least not till we get proper drop pods] , but for csm we are already walking a thin line of cost vs effectivness.

[Tenebris]

Well two days ago I had a game were I played a wave of CSM with Infiltration and Fearless (from Fabius and Dark Apostle who got Master of Deception) against the Imperial Guard. By turn four most of my 80 marines were either dead or soon to be dead. The Fearless kept my army in game but the sheer volume of fire was abhorrent, two full platoons opened against me each turn and I was able to tackle them in melee only at the third turn. I also had support in the form of 2x2 MoN Obliterators and two squads of CSM (on objectives) with the Autocannons but I was sorely beaten. 

 

The thing is that even squads of 20 do not have the necessary volume of fire to deal with massed infantry. The Guardsmen that were in the open were quickly dealt with but since in my club we play with terrain heavy boards I was at a big disadvantage. In hindsight it would be better if I played my classic list with CSM on foot with Plasma Guns, plenty of Terminators and Obliterators. And seeing that my meta is moving toward infantry heavy lists (due to the excellent boards in our club, tons of terrain and always fluffy rules to make them even better) I am seriously considering getting a Daemon Prince with the Black Mace in there, at least to relieve some pressure from my CSM.

 

It is sad that between Cult Troops, Cultists and Daemons the basic CSM perform the worst of the Troop choices. And time and again I get punished due to the low discipline.

 

I think my CSM setup will be:

 

13 Chaos Space Marines, Power Weapon, Melta Bombs, Plasma Gun and Autocannon. 

 

I find that squads of 20 are tough to move around, squads of 10 and less too vulnerable to enemy fire and since Rhinos are more often than not our of the question in my case those three extra bodies account for a whole turn more before the actual wounds begin to tell and force my Discipline checks. The problem with the Autocannon is that you have to be stationary but this squad is tuned to be effective in the middle board so once they get there and find a piece of cover they are not to be moved unless to capture or contend an objective. First I was thinking squads of 15 but the extra two marines have little return value, while three wounds more in a squad of 13 can make some wonders be it in defense as in offense. 

[minigun762]

I've really been considering trading in my Rhinos for larger squad sizes.

Maybe 15 bodies, with VotLW and power weapon on champion, some extra CCWs tossed in.

 

Just a mass of power armor moving up the field.

[Scribe]

The only reason I cant see myself doing that is...baledrakes. :]

[Sception]

CSMs are the worst chaos marine troop unit only if you forget berzerkers - who are basically just CSMs who pay extra points to forget how to use bolters and special weapons - and thousand sons - who are just way overpriced, especially on terrain heavy boards where their invulnerable saves and AP3 don't count for much. At least the invulnerable means something for their even more overpriced champions, who have half a chance of surviving obligatory challenges with rival squad leaders....

[the jeske]

I've really been considering trading in my Rhinos for larger squad sizes.

Maybe 15 bodies, with VotLW and power weapon on champion, some extra CCWs tossed in.

 

Just a mass of power armor moving up the field.

12 man. is imo most optimal . It lets you get enough 7-10 man squads in to melee/double tap range and still  have working force . 15 man squads cost too much and are to easy to focus fire. piling in is also a problem , if there are enough blast weapons in the opposing army .

[Iron_Within]

12 for unmarked but if you're taking an icon it better to have around 15 to legitimise its cost (Either Banner of Wrath and the Banner of Excess are the only ones I rate).

 

Plasma guns are good because of the large numbers of MEQ players but if that is not the case then they aren't as useful unless you're getting into the side armour. Against IG I don't rate Plasma that highly. If you have to slog it so close then maybe you need to give target saturation, with 80 marines (even if they won't suboptimal) you're not doing that. I rate the Maulerfiend alongside the larger CSM blobs because they are so fast they are terrifying and against shooty armies you need models with speed to tie up the their units while your footsloggers engage. Fiends and spawn will be especially suited if you have lots of terrain as they can be a swine (one particularly lucky fiend of mine endured three rounds of shooting from a long fangs pack with ML because he was hugging the ruins as he approached, not bad for something I deemed a distraction while my other units took out his army)

[minigun762]

Only problem with 12 is it doesn't seem like enough extra bodies to counter the protection you get from the Rhino.

[Severoth]

That sounds pretty fun. I like MoS because usually I play against MEQ in my area and even if I rapid fire it gives them something to think about, as I generally have VotLW AND go first. Plus plasma overwatch if they assault. 

I've played with nurgle and khorne marks both but I just like that edge of hitting first in combat too much to pass up. I do like to use raptors with khorne, tho. Makes them useful still even if they're assaulted, with counter attack.

Without a doubt going first is awesome, I used to run one squad MoS because I liked having my cool night lord with a power sword go first in combats (so he can survive longer) but I Nurgle is hard for me to pass up if I know I really don't want them in assault. my Bikers and berserkers with Khârn are the blitz happy guys, it is amazing how the opponent must choose who is the bigger threat. The marines in the mean while are tough and it makes it very difficult to actually get them to die. even if I press forward

[the jeske]

Only problem with 12 is it doesn't seem like enough extra bodies to counter the protection you get from the Rhino.

It does. Your thinking about 1 squad with and without rhino  in a void. But think about it when you cut 3 rhinos or 3x3 marines you almost have a fourth  squad.

[Elrahir]

I suggest you auto-include huron on these lists, else how can foot-slogging be worked out? Also, isn't d3 infiltration kind of unstable when you want to use a more solid tactic? I would go for rhinos (and if they just sit back, this is where havoc launchers shine imho) even if i had included huron, just incase my marines do not show up where i want them at the start of the game.

[Zhorzh]

 

Only problem with 12 is it doesn't seem like enough extra bodies to counter the protection you get from the Rhino.

It does. Your thinking about 1 squad with and without rhino  in a void. But think about it when you cut 3 rhinos or 3x3 marines you almost have a fourth  squad.

 

Also, Rhino limits the unit's abilities. If it gets shaken and/or stunned the unit also suffers, and it can't assault the turn it gets out.

[the jeske]

Also, isn't d3 infiltration kind of unstable when you want to use a more solid tactic?

We are talking here how to make bad units work. If someone wants a good chaos army then taking csm , makes little sense.

[Zhukov]

 

I suggest you auto-include huron on these lists, else how can foot-slogging be worked out? Also, isn't d3 infiltration kind of unstable when you want to use a more solid tactic? I would go for rhinos (and if they just sit back, this is where havoc launchers shine imho) even if i had included huron, just incase my marines do not show up where i want them at the start of the game.

Footslogging works by providing different, more dangerous threats. It's basicly saying: If you focus on my troops right away, then the dangerous part of my list will kill you. If you focus on the dangerous part of the list, then I hope you have enough firepower left later on to remove all the troops.

 

That's the core of it. The other part is how the footslogging squads perform themselves, which can be an issue. It got quite a bit better with the change to rapid fire weapons however. You're able to contribute from turn 2 onwards with some plasma shots + bolter shots.

 

Problem with CSM is still the morale issue. Running large squads is more dangerous and on top of that it gives diminishing returns in the first place. (No extra special/heavy weapons above 10 man)

 

Frankly, I think everybody knows perfectly fine how you should run CSM, it's just that people have problems accepting that they are bad and therefore try really hard to come up with something 'special'. There is nothing special, the options are overcosted and there is no hidden synergy, nothing which PM's or cultists wouldn't do better/more efficient. (Or your CSM do something you don't need/want in the first place)

[Elrahir]

To oppose this, why aren't loyalist tactical squads equally bad? They have a problem with taking 2 specials that perform the same role so u will have to combat squad them and units of 5-men marines are not that scary to anyone, and if u break it down to close combat they are not gonna stand a chance as 5 men charging or defending an objective. ATSKNF or not they are going to lose. They have better means of transportation on the battlefield, that doesn't give them anything more though on their role effectiveness as sit back and score unit. It all comes down to the morale syndrome, which I find absurd because tactical marines vs csm have not that many differences in shooting capabilities, so it means csm can be a more balanced tactical squad with the side-effect of morale, while the other one has a more definite and more blank role as a 'versatile/anchor' unit.

 

No, csm are not the most special unit in the world, but i cannot see why they are tagged as BAD, how many times have you run them and they have shown taht great weakness in their morale issue. I know my squads as i have run them several times, but their morale was never an issue, in those cases they were annihilated by the enemy, it would have been the same with their loyalist equivalent.

 

There are no hidden synergies, it's just how you run them and what do you do with them and how are those actions correlated with the rest of your army. 

There are, though, wrong and bad ways to use them, in my opinion i dare to include that they are not meant to be used in waves or 10+ footsloggers. We have the worse dedicated transport (the boxes) we could ever have, and that's the issue, alone.

 

PM, CSM, Berzerkers or whatever scoring unit the codex has to offer has to live with that.

[HJL]

I think people that tag csm as bad are unfamiliar with basic guardsmen...

[hornywingythingy]

I think people that tag csm as bad are unfamiliar with basic guardsmen...

Basic guardsman are awesome for the points you pay for them, and they have the option to blob up or not, but not fixed in when you buy the unit, you pick when you deploy, seriously awesome, sometimes, like vs missileside spam tau in a non kp game msu platoons beat the blob.

[Tenebris]

Are you joking, The average Guardsmen squad is an awesome unit. You can kit it in so many ways, place it in a wider formation or elevate them to proper Veterans, you can have a wide choice of weapons and for around 70 points you have a very solid unit. With a cheap sergeant to tank the enemy character it might even get a turn more in melee than expected. In short I LOVE everything from the Guardsmen Squad, it is indeed a strong and balanced unit and has proven capable to face the test of time with pride, unlike the CSM who are already moving onto our shelves after our first year as a 6th Edition army. For the points that we spend for an average CSM squad the Guard can field two infantry squads and a cheap platoon squad that is capable to do a ton of things and do them effectively.

 

I think that we are once again up with Plague Marines as a staple troop for our army, provided that we do not field Cultists. 

[the jeske]

They have a problem with taking 2 specials that perform the same role so

u will have to combat squad them and units of 5-men marines are not

that scary to anyone, and if u break it down to close combat they are

not gonna stand a chance as 5 men charging or defending an objective.

Your compering wrong type of units tacticals aren't ment to be the working horse of sm lists [well maybe in DA dakka lists].They are cheap support units , that happen to be scoring . Their strenght is the rules[ATKNF, combat squading ,chapter traits] and the cost .

CSM are neither cheap [sW do the same things cheaper. PMs out of the same codex do the same things cheaper] , nor have synergy , nor special rules [unless they get sprinkled with more points]. They can't be left alone . What is even worse , when we start to run them as front line units , it gets even worse . Because then just the cheap options , become too random[huron infiltration] or too weak[lack of transports].

[Tenebris]

Every day the basic SM wins over a basic CSM. I hope that we agree on this, otherwise I suggest you all have a look at the respective books and read some rules. ATSKNF means that if you get shot and fail discipline you run, but the next turn you regroup, by extention this means that the special and heavy weapons guys stand in the fight longer. Combat Squad is a great addition especially nowadays that we have to play tons of objective games. It takes some judgement before you deploy but with a wise decision you double up your scoring units which can be a great boon since if I am not wrong they still share the same transport. Now couple those very basic advantages with the access to the Drop Pod and you have a proper shock trooper to throw right into the enemy lines and doubletap his bolter. 

 

On the other hand we know that the basic Tactical Marine just got better since it will have access to chapter tactics that would help him in some way and again if I am not wrong this bonus comes for free, so no need for points spent on upgrades. This this comparison is revealing to be a huge disappointment, one of the many we are used to of late. Than we can say, sure but we have Marks. Marks which need to be bought, require a specific setup and tactic to be useful or are in some cases useless (MoT), which leaves us with the choice to either be Fearless or Feel no Pain...and this is no choice at all. 

 

But we have numbers you would say. Sadly numbers are still a hindrance for you have points spent in models that act as ablative wounds and while this tactic is mandatory in horde armies we are still speaking of a power armor army. Ablative wounds are not how marines are meant to be played, not by a long shot. Add out lackluster performance both in melee as well as in a firefight, the mandatory challenge and you have a recipe for disaster.

 

It is very sad that the only time my PA infantry performed well they were Plague Marines and I curse that day for I have said nevermore to them. Yet one year now from our rebirth we still have the same problems, and perhaps many more, than with the previous book. 

 

Let me remind you:

 

Lash Prince 2x

Plague Marines

Obliterators

 

Nowadays:

Mace Prince

Plague Marines

Obliterators
Helldrake

 

 

So where is the CSM in there? Nowhere, probably they will be sitting on our shelves for another edition and by the 7th we will be probably rolled into a Chaos book and stay there lost and forgotten. 

 

So yes, lets do us all a big favor, lets buy some green stuff and make some Plague Marine more for the basic CSM is not working nowadays.