Chaos Space Marines: Making The Best of a Bad Unit

[the jeske]

So where is the CSM in there?

Well the lord you have to take the PMs is kind of a csm lord not a plaguemarine lord. unless he is tyfus.

[Tenebris]

Even there Typhus is better, he unlocks an additional type of troops, he is a psyker and while not that powerful in combat he acts well as an utility lord that can do a bit of everything. With him you can actually have squads of 10 cultists all across the board and still be fluffy and you even save money for all you need is some round bases and a pack of Vampire Counts zombies. All in all a good choice, not a powerhouse, but a solid character to play with. 

[Zhukov]

Elrahir, on 01 Sept 2013 - 17:34, said:

-

To oppose this, why aren't loyalist tactical squads equally bad?

Because they have ATSKNF and are cheaper. Even if they were as bad, it wouldn't be all that relevant, different army after all.

[minigun762]

My brain automatically defaults to the 10 man squad with two specials as I feel that it is the most balance, that said, I wonder if we would be better served by the 5 man squad in a Rhino instead. We lose that second weapon but the squad's point cost is much more in line with that of Cultists and we benefit from the added mobility and protection of a Rhino.

It's true that PM's get access to a pair of specials with only 5 bodies but CSMs don't have to worry about the HQ tax and frankly, a 115-125 point CSM Rhino squad can claim an objective just as well as a 175 point PM Rhino squad against most things.

[the jeske]

costs too much better to run BAs that way. Cheaper havock backs with better weapons .

[Grey Mage]

My brain automatically defaults to the 10 man squad with two specials as I feel that it is the most balance, that said, I wonder if we would be better served by the 5 man squad in a Rhino instead. We lose that second weapon but the squad's point cost is much more in line with that of Cultists and we benefit from the added mobility and protection of a Rhino.

It's true that PM's get access to a pair of specials with only 5 bodies but CSMs don't have to worry about the HQ tax and frankly, a 115-125 point CSM Rhino squad can claim an objective just as well as a 175 point PM Rhino squad against most things.

Youre going to run an HQ anyways. Unless they are way above and beyond the price youd normally pay for an HQ in your build, its really hard to consider it a tax. Do you run alot of naked lords in your lists?

 

The problem with five man squads is that they die very, very quickly. The tradeoff in price is an absolute lack of survivability. I cant honestly say I think that tradeoff would be worth it.

[nurglez]

I think a single 5 man squad is alright, but alongside some tougher troops. Why do I feel left out of the 1 heavy weapon for 5 guys squad again? I used to love running 5 man squads with a heavy bolter (back when it cost 5 points I think).

[minigun762]

 

My brain automatically defaults to the 10 man squad with two specials as I feel that it is the most balance, that said, I wonder if we would be better served by the 5 man squad in a Rhino instead. We lose that second weapon but the squad's point cost is much more in line with that of Cultists and we benefit from the added mobility and protection of a Rhino.

It's true that PM's get access to a pair of specials with only 5 bodies but CSMs don't have to worry about the HQ tax and frankly, a 115-125 point CSM Rhino squad can claim an objective just as well as a 175 point PM Rhino squad against most things.

Youre going to run an HQ anyways. Unless they are way above and beyond the price youd normally pay for an HQ in your build, its really hard to consider it a tax. Do you run alot of naked lords in your lists?

 

The problem with five man squads is that they die very, very quickly. The tradeoff in price is an absolute lack of survivability. I cant honestly say I think that tradeoff would be worth it.

I'm weird in that I still like Daemon Princes. If I wasn't going to use one of those, I'd rather take a Sorcerer than a Lord, so maybe I tend to devalue the Lord simply because I'm not a fan of him as much as the other options.

[derpasaurus]

I've seen sorcs do some wicked .
nurgle bikes + invisibility + hallucination on the defending units = pack up and go home.

[HJL]

That would be nice but they are both lvl 2 powers so youd need 2 sorcs.

[Daniel the Viking]

In my experience, the best way to play Chaos Space Marines, is to not play them. The biggest problem i'v found with them is that, once you have a solid core of marines, lets say 3 squads of 10 in rhinos with special weapons, you don't have the points to load out on what makes the chaos dex awesome, which is, HQ, Fast Attack and Heavy Support, and Daemon Allies; forget elites because let's face it, you're running them as troops or not at all. You can make an insane list that combines the chaos marines dex with the daemon dex and they can be full of variety, they don't all have to be drake or oblit spam and they can all have their own "flavour" but as far as i'm concerned, unless you're running plague marines or noise marines, don't even bother. You pay to many points for not enough return where you could put those points elsewhere for greater effect.

[RolandTHTG]

In my experience, the best way to play Chaos Space Marines, is to not play them. The biggest problem i'v found with them is that, once you have a solid core of marines, lets say 3 squads of 10 in rhinos with special weapons, you don't have the points to load out on what makes the chaos dex awesome, which is, HQ, Fast Attack and Heavy Support, and Daemon Allies; forget elites because let's face it, you're running them as troops or not at all. You can make an insane list that combines the chaos marines dex with the daemon dex and they can be full of variety, they don't all have to be drake or oblit spam and they can all have their own "flavour" but as far as i'm concerned, unless you're running plague marines or noise marines, don't even bother. You pay to many points for not enough return where you could put those points elsewhere for greater effect.

And as shown both by the topic and the repeated discussions of the past 8 pages.... saying "No Good. Throw them out!" ISN'T an option in this thread. This is by and for the people who want to play their marines, a way to share successful strategies and unit formations.

[Scribe]

Thats the thing, there is nothing there that was false. The meat of the codex is not in the troops, even the cult troops, so every last point spent, is something you cant spend on a unit that...kills things.

 

CSM cannot hold. They are not fearless without support.

CSM cannot split and contest, without ATSKNF they run.

CSM do not deploy outside of a D3 roll (Huron/Ahriman or luck depending) in any way but walking up the board, or in an AV11 transport, on the ground.

CSM do not KILL, as they get 2 specials, a MEQ stat line, and no new fancy guns. Our Aspiring Champions want nothing more than to throw themselves on the sword of the closest MC, and if we DO try and make our champs worth the Gifts Table...they cost a ton.

 

Its a seriously frustrating position to be in, but other then the small tweaks SM players get (Drop Pods, ATSKNF, Combat Squad) they dont count on troops either, I dont know that any army does for anything but holding objectives?

[HJL]

Csm can hold. They do for me every game.fearless icon

We have other units to contest objectives.

deployment is an issue, dreadclaws help out some there.

Csm with 2 plasma guns will wreck face against almost any opponent. Against marines they will almost always wim in close combat. Only a good dedicated cc unit will beat them.

[Scribe]

2 Plasma Guns, 10 Bodies, Stick of Fearless, in a Rhino?

[HJL]

Hmm. Now you mention it, it is a fairly common build. But my point remains. 10 fearless csm are not a "bad" unit.

[minigun762]

2 Plasma Guns, 10 Bodies, Stick of Fearless, in a Rhino?

 

I don't think "stick of fearless" is required honestly.

Most of the time, VotLW is a just fine and even gives you the option of going to ground.

Fearless is nice and I see a lot more value in it when it comes to Cultists, but the math shows me that I should be able to trust LD10 to not run away very often at all.

If you can keep them out of assault, it's even safer.

[the jeske]

And as shown both by the topic and the repeated discussions of the past 8  pages.... saying "No Good. Throw them out!" ISN'T

an option in this thread. This is by and for the people who want to

play their marines, a way to share successful strategies and unit

formations.

That is not true . If people say that they are bad and there is no secret way to play them , but make them cheap and compensate with the rest of the list , while trying to be carried by good choices from the codex , then it means that the only good way to run them is cheap as it gets to get those 2 special weapons. Any form of upgrade would alway rise the "it can be sniped" "they suck at melee" "this will make them cost too much" "that is a 3 unit combo that depands on luck to work" remarks .

 

10 man 2 plasma .

[Daniel the Viking]

In my experience, the best way to play Chaos Space Marines, is to not play them. The biggest problem i'v found with them is that, once you have a solid core of marines, lets say 3 squads of 10 in rhinos with special weapons, you don't have the points to load out on what makes the chaos dex awesome, which is, HQ, Fast Attack and Heavy Support, and Daemon Allies; forget elites because let's face it, you're running them as troops or not at all. You can make an insane list that combines the chaos marines dex with the daemon dex and they can be full of variety, they don't all have to be drake or oblit spam and they can all have their own "flavour" but as far as i'm concerned, unless you're running plague marines or noise marines, don't even bother. You pay to many points for not enough return where you could put those points elsewhere for greater effect.

And as shown both by the topic and the repeated discus

>>>

In my experience, the best way to play Chaos Space Marines, is to not play them. The biggest problem i'v found with them is that, once you have a solid core of marines, lets say 3 squads of 10 in rhinos with special weapons, you don't have the points to load out on what makes the chaos dex awesome, which is, HQ, Fast Attack and Heavy Support, and Daemon Allies; forget elites because let's face it, you're running them as troops or not at all. You can make an insane list that combines the chaos marines dex with the daemon dex and they can be full of variety, they don't all have to be drake or oblit spam and they can all have their own "flavour" but as far as i'm concerned, unless you're running plague marines or noise marines, don't even bother. You pay to many points for not enough return where you could put those points elsewhere for greater effect.

And as shown both by the topic and the repeated discussions of the past 8 pages.... saying "No Good. Throw them out!" ISN'T an option in this thread. This is by and for the people who want to play their marines, a way to share successful strategies and unit formations.

Yeah i understand that, What i was going to say was, In the event that i have no other choice but to run bog marines, i'd do as follows

4 x 5 marines w/ plasma gun in rhino.

That's it.

sions of the past 8 pages.... saying "No Good. Throw them out!" ISN'T an option in this thread. This is by and for the people who want to play their marines, a way to share successful strategies and unit formations.

[Trevak Dal]

Thats the thing, there is nothing there that was false. The meat of the codex is not in the troops, even the cult troops, so every last point spent, is something you cant spend on a unit that...kills things.

 

CSM cannot hold. They are not fearless without support.

CSM cannot split and contest, without ATSKNF they run.

CSM do not deploy outside of a D3 roll (Huron/Ahriman or luck depending) in any way but walking up the board, or in an AV11 transport, on the ground.

CSM do not KILL, as they get 2 specials, a MEQ stat line, and no new fancy guns. Our Aspiring Champions want nothing more than to throw themselves on the sword of the closest MC, and if we DO try and make our champs worth the Gifts Table...they cost a ton.

 

Its a seriously frustrating position to be in, but other then the small tweaks SM players get (Drop Pods, ATSKNF, Combat Squad) they dont count on troops either, I dont know that any army does for anything but holding objectives?

 

Crisis suits with 2x a chosen weapon (plasma, melta or missile pod) as troops is pretty much God Mode, and frees up your Elites for the new-hotness Riptides and the often never-used Stealth Suits.\

 

Because you can tailor make a Crisis suit or squad for just about any situation.  You can even make a Close Combat squad now (3 suits with 2 flamers and the support thing that gives them hit and run each along with a couple of gun drones for i4).  Nobody expects Tau to assault-they usually cry foul after it happens.

[Scribe]

Indeed, Tau...I wonder if SM rep will even dent Tau over the next 6 months.

[Grey Mage]

 

 

My brain automatically defaults to the 10 man squad with two specials as I feel that it is the most balance, that said, I wonder if we would be better served by the 5 man squad in a Rhino instead. We lose that second weapon but the squad's point cost is much more in line with that of Cultists and we benefit from the added mobility and protection of a Rhino.

It's true that PM's get access to a pair of specials with only 5 bodies but CSMs don't have to worry about the HQ tax and frankly, a 115-125 point CSM Rhino squad can claim an objective just as well as a 175 point PM Rhino squad against most things.

Youre going to run an HQ anyways. Unless they are way above and beyond the price youd normally pay for an HQ in your build, its really hard to consider it a tax. Do you run alot of naked lords in your lists?

 

The problem with five man squads is that they die very, very quickly. The tradeoff in price is an absolute lack of survivability. I cant honestly say I think that tradeoff would be worth it.

I'm weird in that I still like Daemon Princes. If I wasn't going to use one of those, I'd rather take a Sorcerer than a Lord, so maybe I tend to devalue the Lord simply because I'm not a fan of him as much as the other options.

Nothing wrong with that. I have to admit Ive never understood why daemon princes wouldnt unlock the cult troops- or sorcerors for tzeentch atleast!- but then theres alot of things Id have added and tweaked to the chaos dex... *shrugs*.

 

Since 1750-2k seems to be the scene in portland, a 2nd HQ is viable at times... though its not something Im a huge fan of in most armies.

[daveNYC]

Just one of many goofy rule oversights.  Unless someone would want to explain why Mortarion, technically a Daemon Prince, would have problems summoning Plague Marines to his cause.

[Brother Eleysium]

I play the game for the love of the Fluff and the hobby.  I'm not going to proxy my army or change the fluff of my Legion to be a more competitive player.  If that's the case you might as well just change armies every time a new Codex comes out, otherwise you will be forever dissatisfied. The newest armies or the "flavor of the month" having bigger and better toys has been a trend with GW for years, I dunno why all  you "Veterans" of the game are surprised. I've been playing since the latter end 2nd edition myself and this has been the nature of things since GW went public.

 

 I'm not saying that I don't also like to play to win,  but splitting hairs and complaining over different armies having different pros and cons, just seems pretty redundant.  Instead of complaining and trying the same thing over and over again with little or no success, why not try and adapt your list to better fit your needs? If it's not working one way, then obviously it  needs to be changed... Pretty simple solution if you ask me...

 

That being said,  Space Marines Chaos or loyalist are pound for pound the best troop in the game.  Field more of them instead of sinking more points into them to try and make them each an ends all be all squad.  If one squad was supposed to be able to do everything, we wouldn't have Heavies, Elites, or Fast Attack choices.

[the jeske]

The newest armies or the "flavor of the month" having bigger and better

toys has been a trend with GW for years, I dunno why all  you "Veterans"

of the game are surprised.

IG players are happy with their dex , as are necron and non of those are fully fresh dex. Flavor of the month have nothing to do with codex viability