Master Avoghai Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 Yeah but as long as you've chosen your chapter symbol you cannot choose another one... You always end out with icon useless for the army you're collecting... If the grav weapon was the only special weapon of the pack and that you would have been forced to buy a melta or a flamer in a separate pack, I would have bothered me a little... But here it's just a piece for my bitz box just like the UM or the BA symbols of my drop pods... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syphid Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 Yeah but as long as you've chosen your chapter symbol you cannot choose another one... You always end out with icon useless for the army you're collecting... That's universal for everyone who buys a drop pod, not specific to any particular chapter. Edit: The whole drop pod icon thing is irrelevant. You can put one of each icon on your drop pods and it won't matter because there is no rule saying you can't. It's an aesthetic bit. If the grav weapon was the only special weapon of the pack and that you would have been forced to buy a melta or a flamer in a separate pack, I would have bothered me a little... But here it's just a piece for my bitz box just like the UM or the BA symbols of my drop pods... It's not the same. The Tactical Squad that you are fielding is not the same as the Tactical Squad you are buying. The one you are fielding can not use grav weapons. The one that you are buying can and comes with them. Nobody in your army can use the grav weapons you are buying, because the rules prohibit them from doing so. Icons are not weapons. Your drop pod icons have no rules associated with them and are just for show. They do not change how your drop pod functions in the game. A Tactical Squad should be a Tactical Squad. If GW was only selling grav weapons with Sternguard then I wouldn't have a problem because that is a unit and box specific to C:SM. We have our own box for Vets and don't need to buy a Sternguard squad to field them. But they are changing what a Tactical Squad is by instroducing Grav weapons, and because our codex has already been printed it only makes sense to add grav weapons to DA Tactial Squads so that they are the same thing as the Tactical Squad box you are buying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 Back in the day when all Wolves had was a few special metal models, the best (and pretty much only) way to start a Grey Hunters pack was to pick up a Tactical squad box. Those poor wolf players were forced to buy missile launchers with their squad that they were only allowed to use in Long fang squads... Ditto with Crusader squads for Templars. Did they get an FAQ to use Hunters or Crusader squads the way they came out of the tac box?... No. Your argument is invalid and you are refusing to understand why your argument is invalid. Woo! you are forced to pay for a part you cannot use... Said cost of that individual part is about $.05 USD... Mountain/Molehill argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syphid Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 Back in the day when all Wolves had was a few special metal models, the best (and pretty much only) way to start a Grey Hunters pack was to pick up a Tactical squad box. Those poor wolf players were forced to buy missile launchers with their squad that they were only allowed to use in Long fang squads... Ditto with Crusader squads for Templars. Did they get an FAQ to use Hunters or Crusader squads the way they came out of the tac box?... No. Your argument is invalid and you are refusing to understand why your argument is invalid. Woo! you are forced to pay for a part you cannot use... Said cost of that individual part is about $.05 USD... Mountain/Molehill argument. Uh, the missile launchers could still be used by a unit in their army. Then GW went and made a box specifically for Space Wolves Grey Hunters etc anyways. And you're saying my argument is invalid? You're talking about stuff from years ago that still isn't comparable to grav weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 I've wasted 5 minutes of my life reading this, 5 minutes I'll never get back...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surrender_Monkey Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 I don't think DA need any of the new toys. Sure they'll be worse at some builds, but they're better at others (no one does Terminators like the Deathwing!) I'm not bothered about grav weapons in the tactical box, as long as it's not sacrifcing anything to get it in there. As far as I know it still comes with a Plasma Gun, Meltagun and Flamer, so we're all good on that front. Would be nice if it came with more than one heavy weapon (plasma cannon!) but you can't have everything. Not having everything is kinda the point, if Dark Angels had all of the same toys as vanilla, but also had the Deathwing and Ravenwing stuff, why would you ever play codex, besides aesthetics? If you desperately need the new toys, you can always ally, that's what its there for. I personally am very tempted to do some White Scars so I can get some Sternguard and a Stormraven/Stormtalon (and even more bikes!), but I am trying to put it off until I've actually painted some of the Angels that I've already bought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 I'm with facmanpob with this one... I'll stop arguing because 1/ you choose to declare what is irrelevant or not. So there's no point here 2/ if you choose to use lawyers and declare its a scandal and you get screwed by GW because you get an additional bitz you can exchange with other hobbyists... Well we don't live in the same world... (Sometimes I wish any hobbyist once knew the time where you needed to spend 8€/termis (10€ for a HW) to build a squad of 5 termis... No extra HW, no various poses... I think it would learn them to think a little befor claiming for consumer's rights) <_< Anyway I'm off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 To say that your Marines can't use the grav weapon bits that come in the box is totally wrong... Every single one of my Stoneburners can and will kill a grav weapon user and place that bit on their base, same as my left over Templar bits, Chaos bits, Tau bits and Eldar bits. I'd much rather have extras I can't use to make things interesting than get nothing extra at all and have no customization options. Basing customization is just as important as model customization. Bits in a box is a ridiculous stance to take to argue why an army should have a FAQ. Besides, if we're being that pendantic, a FAQ couldn't add a weapon into the Codex anyway. Only an Errata can do that. GW makes a very specific point about the difference between the two on their website: Errata provide corrections to the errors that sometimes creep into our books. It is important to note that Errata carry the same 'authority' as the main rules and permanently modify published material; where one of our books says one thing and the errata changes this to something else, the errata takes precedence as the 'correct' version of that material. FAQs, or Frequently Asked Questions are grey areas, points of confusion or places where rules can and have been interpreted in conflicting ways. For each FAQ we provide the answer as determined by the Games Development team; while these are not hard and fast rules text in the same way as Errata, they should be considered the 'official' interpretation. So, as we can see, a FAQ wouldn't actually be able to do anything with regards to grav weapons in the DA book, because there is nothing to interpret, grav weapons aren't included. FAQ aren't rules, they are only interpretations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRSFACE Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 Many people erroneously use the term "FAQ" for anything that's listed on the "Errata and FAQ" sections on their website. It's one of those distinctions that's not worth getting in a huff about because at the end of the day, both are listed in what ends up being the same PDF file. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 I wonder if we get new FAQ when SM hits shelves. I wonder if I'll suddenly sprout a third eye... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Many people erroneously use the term "FAQ" for anything that's listed on the "Errata and FAQ" sections on their website. It's one of those distinctions that's not worth getting in a huff about because at the end of the day, both are listed in what ends up being the same PDF file. Which is titled an Official Update, not a FAQ. ;) Maybe people should stop using the wrong terms, acceptance of erroneously used terms doesn't make anything correct. If people feel the need to be pedantic about bits in a box, everyone else can be pedantic about terms used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRSFACE Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Can't argue with that, Bryan! I actually had a guy tell me I'm stupid (which eventually devolved into what was 2 seconds away from a full-blown fist fight but that's beside the point) because I was trying to talk to some of my friends about the rumors and had mentioned it's basically confirmed Black Templar are being swallowed into the main codex. (BTW, it HAS been 99.99999% confirmed seeing as they have special edition art featuring them on one of the covers. I need to rub it in this guy's face, lol.) Being pedantic never helped anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJedi Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 I've always planned to use the Gravgun on a Dark Angel vet, despite the fact that they can't have one. I'm going to make a few non-codex units with funny options. Maybe I'll use them in Apoc / friendly game / kill team, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 I've always planned to use the Gravgun on a Dark Angel vet, despite the fact that they can't have one. I'm going to make a few non-codex units with funny options. Maybe I'll use them in Apoc / friendly game / kill team, etc. Bah. Why bother. Just model legal options and wait. They'll be rendered illegal by the next codex, just like my scout sergeant (powerfist and stormbolter) was outlawed by the last dex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynolds Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 In a way I'm not surprised that even many veterans of these forums get heated up on the Graviton Gun debate. I was at first for a long time, 'til now. - In my opinion, it's the bane of Warmachines like the Riptide/Battlesuits and other monstrosities. I'll say this all as my personal opinion: The Graviton weapons were a needed boost for the Codex: Space Marines, especially as I took a better look at their old book, and our new Dark Angels Codex. - Everyone who has got a new book, has received a "monster unit" that tear everything apart; we have only ourselves. I like the sound of that...*** - Nevertheless, is there anything right now in our Codex that doesn't work out of the box, in some form of synergy? Are some options worse than others? Yes, but the synergy exists between them. We have no "one-trick-superweapon" like the Riptide/Wraithknight what the C:SM will be getting. But our versions of the Castellan Missile Launcher still burn the Cover Saves away from everyone. Our Knights tear down the walls of everything at strength 10 while maintaining 3+ invulnerable save, at Toughness 5 if need be. We come from the skies and through the heavens, to the place I have not ever seen an enemy wanting my Deathwing to arrive. We cannot be broken as we are shot from afar, like back in 3rd edition. If anyone would ask me: Keep your fancy toys... I'll rain hell upon them all, as I had in the 2nd, 3rd, and now up to 6th edition. We are stronger by unity, and I will dare to say stronger than the Vanillas... But I understand everyone's frustration, and I feel it a little as well. But my pride as a Son of Lion still burns in me, for our Codex stands, even if the Anti-Air department is lacking. I will still say this: The wait for 6th was worth it, and it just got real. I'll tear the proud & arrogant from their high horses and show what it means to go to the battlefield with an outgunned/outmanned force that will cut the enemy apart with efficiency not seen, even by the other Finest of the Emperor. *** For we still haven't lost the edge, we didn't lose our wargear, nor our heroes' special abilities. No one can sustain the unflinching firepower of Tau/IG/Necrons/and so forth, like we can. We just need to do what we have done before:- As always: Unforgiving. Make no mistakes in our play, and see how the new toys fall apart in front of thousands of years of history. We did it even in our darkest of hours, and I see no such dark times on top of us, right now(as we did years back in 4th edition). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Err.... Wow! Heartfelt stuff there Reynolds - good on yer. Cheers I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 ~sniff~ ~wipes a tear~ FOR THE LION!!! If you can't win with C: DA, perhaps you aren't a Son of The Lion? (yes, this is also directed at those who played DA using the 5th edition C:UM and/or allied in GKTs) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 ~sniff~ ~wipes a tear~ FOR THE LION!!! If you can't win with C: DA, perhaps you aren't a Son of The Lion? (yes, this is also directed at those who played DA [...] or allied in GKTs) Errr, shhhh. Allying GKTs – that might've been me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elphilo Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 ~sniff~ ~wipes a tear~ FOR THE LION!!! If you can't win with C: DA, perhaps you aren't a Son of The Lion? (yes, this is also directed at those who played DA [...] or allied in GKTs) Errr, shhhh. Allying GKTs – that might've been me That might have been EVERYONE :P The only unit with Grav guns that is going to be really good, from the looks of it, is centurions. The fact that the grav guns are going to be Salvo it won't be as devastating on tactical squads. As was said before they're the SM response to Wraithknights and Riptides. Though without an invulnerable save and only 24" range, centurions will be hard pressed to actually survive. So let them keep the abominations. We have Ravenwing Black Knights to take down those MCs. The only thing from SM that I would want is their flyers and AA, but thats what allies are for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 ~sniff~ ~wipes a tear~ FOR THE LION!!! If you can't win with C: DA, perhaps you aren't a Son of The Lion? (yes, this is also directed at those who played DA [...] or allied in GKTs) Errr, shhhh. Allying GKTs – that might've been me That might have been EVERYONE The only unit with Grav guns that is going to be really good, from the looks of it, is centurions. The fact that the grav guns are going to be Salvo it won't be as devastating on tactical squads. As was said before they're the SM response to Wraithknights and Riptides. Though without an invulnerable save and only 24" range, centurions will be hard pressed to actually survive. So let them keep the abominations. We have Ravenwing Black Knights to take down those MCs. The only thing from SM that I would want is their flyers and AA, but thats what allies are for. Wasnt me... Under the last codex I had a TO (himself a DA player) ask if I was really using the DA codex and then compliment me on being brave/foolhardy... There is loyalty and then there is codex hopping.... I do want some GKs tho... Two handed hammers and some of those swords will make fine conversions, especially with a vambrace mount for the DWK storm shields... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syphid Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 I'm with facmanpob with this one... I'll stop arguing because 1/ you choose to declare what is irrelevant or not. So there's no point here 2/ if you choose to use lawyers and declare its a scandal and you get screwed by GW because you get an additional bitz you can exchange with other hobbyists... Well we don't live in the same world... (Sometimes I wish any hobbyist once knew the time where you needed to spend 8€/termis (10€ for a HW) to build a squad of 5 termis... No extra HW, no various poses... I think it would learn them to think a little befor claiming for consumer's rights) Anyway I'm off... I think that a Tactical Squad should be able to use the weapons that come with a Tactical Squad. Or at least that some model in our army can use these weapons. Drop pod icons, grey hunters from 10 years ago, random bit terrain, how terrible boxes were back in the day, etc are irrelevant because they simply aren't germane. I'm not going to sue GW over a violation of my "consumer rights" and the reason we aren't seeing eye to eye on this is because people keep making false equivalencies to what I am saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin_eX Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 I could care less about anything else the 'nilla marines receive save for one (and only one) exception. The Hunter (they can keep the other variant). The Hunter has always been generic AA for almost every chapter in existence. It was the very first dedicated AA platform for marines (later replaced in some by the Hyperios; but GW doesn't make a habit of bringing FW units in to 40k-proper). I would dearly love the Hunter to get retconned in to our codex since the one area where we suffer is AA ability. With the addition of that one unit, we can actually engage Helldrake-spam without having to over-specialize ourselves in to the ground. If we can keep on expecting AV12 flyers at any point in the future, this is basically required. Don't care about the rest, but the Hunter should have showed up in the DA codex first and been something that vanilla had to look forward to along with its new toys. It should be standard in every single marine list ever released. It should get handed out like Whirlwinds, Rhinos and Razorbacks. This is one of those vehicles where asymmetrical distribution causes head scratching. I can see Centurions, grav weapons and all the rest not being in the DA codex, but a common, dedicated AA tank described and fairly widespread (originally at least) seems like a natural fit for every marine codex. Especially in 6E. 'Course, I doubt it will happen... so allies it is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJedi Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 I've always planned to use the Gravgun on a Dark Angel vet, despite the fact that they can't have one. I'm going to make a few non-codex units with funny options. Maybe I'll use them in Apoc / friendly game / kill team, etc. Bah. Why bother. Just model legal options and wait. They'll be rendered illegal by the next codex, just like my scout sergeant (powerfist and stormbolter) was outlawed by the last dex. But.. that's still a legal option. "The Scout Sergeant or Veteran Scout Sergeant may take items from the Melee Weapons and/or Ranged Weapons sections of the wargear list." And as to why I bother, I already have plenty of Flamer/Plasma/Melta Marines. I'm planning for some Volkite and Autocannons next. Painting, Collecting and Gaming. If a writer has a Dark Angel use a Gravgun in his next book no one will hold up the codex and say that can't happen. The codex simply represents the most common things you see on a 40k battlefield for our chapter. There's plenty more with fluff, modeling options, bigger games like Apoc, smaller games like killteam, crazy crap like spearhead, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRSFACE Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 I fully plan on buying Codex: Space Marines and simply utilize the expanded force org of it when I run other Dark Angels as if they were from some other chapter for gameplay purposes. Because I can. Because the rules allow it. Because it fits the fluff. Because Warhammer as a game is inherently an awful game from a competitive side. I am going to do what makes it fun. I just wish there were other people around here where I live who thought the same as me. I have one friend who's into making things scenematic and epic rather than GATTA WIN NAO type games, and we have a blast fielding fluffy lists. It's a shame that the game took over the hobby, rather than the game simply being an excuse for the hobby. (edited for clarity) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 I just wish there were other people around here who thought the same as me. I have one friend who's into making things scenematic and epic rather than GATTA WIN NAO type games, and we have a blast fielding fluffy lists. It's a shame that the game took over the hobby, rather than the game simply being an excuse for the hobby. Nice judgement on the community there. People ought to be welling over with love for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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