Centurions

[Gentlemanloser]

Took a break for a while, and I come back to the new Dread based marines (Centurions?) being T5, W2?

 

Is this correct?  Can I start raging about Paladins?

 

/sigh

 

 

[number6]

Took a break for a while, and I come back to the new Dread based marines (Centurions?) being T5, W2?

Is this correct? Can I start raging about Paladins?

/sigh

I always told you -- "you" meaning everybody -- that Paladins aren't worth their points.

[Gentlemanloser]

LoL!

I'm rather poking all this at my mates and trying to get them to explain just *how* the GK dex is 'OP' now.

I'll take 6 Dev Centurions with one of the couple of Tactics that buff them, Grav Beamers and Hurricane bolters, and see how they perform against 10 Pallies with 4 Psycannons at 24" Range...

6 x Salvo 5 Shot Grav Cannons (with reroll to wound) and 6 x Hurricane Bolters. So 30, S (variable) AP2, and 18 Twin Linked Bolter Shots. Assuming the Grav Cannons are a 20 point upgrade (most listed) that's 490 points. Versus the usual 630 for 6 Storm Bolters and 4 Psycannons (or 12 Bolter shots and 16 S7 Rending shots).

Now, while FnP is tempting to give them (as they lack an Invulnerable), lets see what other opions we can give them, for free.

Reroll 1's to shoot, or re-roll Snap Fire/Overwatch.

Stealth (stick these in Cover mid board)

Tank Hunters (+1 on building damage table)

/sigh (Edit: Oh and the Dev Centurions can also purchase the Split Fire wargear...)

Edit: GKs get power weapons you say?

25 point AA wearing Honour Guard with Power Weapons. They get to live facing other Power Weapons in CC as they get a 2+ Save. GK (and thier single attack...) don't.

And Assault Centurions... S9, AP2 on Initiative. They're like NDH Pallies on Steriods. Only 1A, but they have a Pair of specilaist Weapons. With Armourbane.

And have TL Flamers to pew pew with.

They can purchase either TL Meltaguns to Pew PEw with, and replace thier Frag Grenades with Hurricane Bolters to get to shoot two weapons each (thanks to Decimation Protocols) *and* can purchase Split Fire.

So they Flamer/H Bolter the squishy Stuff and a couple of them Split thier TL Meltas to go burn some Armour/Pallies.

And T5 makes them immune to ID from ML/Meltas. The largest drawback of Pallies.

I think I'll stop now, before I start ranting.

4 Helldrakes in a single FoC now? Urge to rant, growing...

So you've decided to use GKT, becuase of the 4 Helldrakes, or 12 Obliterators you're probably going to face.

Then 6 Dev Centurions with Grav Cannons walk up to you. They're relentless, and unleash thier Salvo 5 Weaponry.

30 shots, 20 hits. 16.667 Sucessful Wounds before reroll. 2.778 rerolled wounds, 19.445 total Wounds Caused.

After your GKT valient Invulnerable Saves, you take 12.963 Unsaved Wounds. And that's before the TL Hurricane Bolter Shots.

Pew Pew.

Edit: Oh and your 10 man GK squad cost 450 points...

Heaven Forbid the SM player is Battle Brothers with any SW and decides to put a 100 point Runepriest in with the Centurions for Divination rerolls. (Cheaper than Tiggy)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I always told you -- "you" meaning everybody -- that Paladins are worth their points.

FTFY

Well, this is the second Centurion thread in about as many days. Lets nip this in the bud I say.

Paladins are a melee unit that can take psycannons. In melee, they're going to eat most units alive due to WS5 and halberds/hammers. With Draigo they're most effective, but even made into scoring via a GM they're still pretty good. Riptides murder them, so if you are up against one don't take Paladins, or at least Raven them into enemy lines to avoid getting blown up.

Centurions are never scoring, they're SnP, and their weapons only have 24" range (assuming you're just taking the new grav-cannons, if you take lascannons+CML you do have 48" range of course). They're also even more expensive than Paladins, whilst lacking the stabby hacky ability. Riptides can't murder them as easily, and they're Heldrake immune.

I think Centurions with lascannon+CML make a good substitute for PsyDreads in 6th edition. Anti-infantry AP2 we can get with cheap servitors as Troops (via Coteaz, Master of Space and Time). Lascannon and krak missiles on the other hand are real anti-tank, and you can bring up to 6 of these dudes in a single Heavy slot, with a cheap Libby+Scouts to fill the mandatory Ally slots.

[Gentlemanloser]

Centurions are never scoring

 

Dev Centurions score in 'Big guns never tire'.

 

 

They're also even more expensive than Paladins, whilst lacking the stabby hacky ability

 

Assault Centurions can out CC Paladin, and can have 18 TL Bolter Shots and your choice of 6 TL Flamers or 6 TL Meltaguns.  Compared to Paladins 12 Bolter Shots and 16 Psycannon Shots.

 

But lets not forget the immunity to ID from Melta/ML (Edit: Power Fists) that Centurions get due to T5 over Paladin.  As said, its one of the major drawbacks Paladin have.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Dev Centurions score in 'Big guns never tire'.

 

1/6 missions. Not something I'd rely upon. Whereas Paladins can be scoring in every game, and in 'Purge' you can give them Scout for lulz. 

 

Assault Centurions can out CC Paladin, and can have 18 TL Bolter Shots and your choice of 6 TL Flamers or 6 TL Meltaguns.  Compared to Paladins 12 Bolter Shots and 16 Psycannon Shots.

Not really. Paladins can get S10 hammers easily, and at that point you almost never need the Amourbane bonus. Bolter shots really don't matter in either case. Paladins aren't slowed down by stupid SnP either, so they can get into melee faster. Psycannon is arguably better than melta against certain units, against Stormhammers for example you have to break their armour and invul. Also, Paladins have flexibility, they can mix in halberds to take on faster opponents that will tear apart Centurions before they can swing (all the FMC's zooming around for example), and can ID stuff that Centurions can't. 

 

But lets not forget the immunity to ID from Melta/ML (Edit: Power Fists) that Centurions get due to T5 over Paladin.  As said, its one of the major drawbacks Paladin have.

At the cost of just about everything else. T5 on Centurions makes them about as broken as Obliterators. I'm okay with Paladins being T4, if they were T5 they'd be absurdly powerful. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Not really. Paladins can get S10 hammers easily, and at that point you almost never need the Amourbane bonus.

You don't need it on S9 either. The only thing Paladins win out on is IDing T5, after a Psychic Test to activate Hammerhand.

But they go on I1.

Assault Centurions go on I4. Which is a massive bonus over NDH.

Bolter shots really don't matter in either case.

You can dismiss them, but I've rolled enough 1's in my time.

And 6 TL HB > 6 Stormbolters.

Paladins aren't slowed down by stupid SnP either, so they can get into melee faster.

True, and can overwatch.

Psycannon is arguably better than melta against certain units, against Stormhammers for example you have to break their armour and invul.

Don't get this point. MG break stormhammers armour by default. Psycannons have to rend.

Also, Paladins have flexibility, they can mix in halberds to take on faster opponents that will tear apart Centurions before they can swing (all the FMC's zooming around for example), and can ID stuff that Centurions can't.

Where as Centurions are better killing everything else. Especially those with 2+ Saves.

And don't forget the Tactics.

[Ishagu]

About time Vanilla marines became op....

[Captain Idaho]

The direct comparison might be poor in your examples Gentlemanloser but the thing you're not taking into account (apart from being a different Codex so how they work in the rest of the army is important) is Devastator Centurions can't out assault Paladins whilst Assault Centurions can't out shoot Paladins.

 

Add to that the fact the best choices for taking down vehicles might be Heavy Support (and what if I want a Landraider?) and the vulnerabilities to psychic tricks and AP2 blasts and the points look much fairer.

 

Put it this way; as a Marine player I'm struggling to think of what I'll drop to put them into the army. That tells a story about how good they really are. ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

While Dev Centurions can't out CC (with only S5 and A1), I think Assault ones can outshoot.  6 TL Meltaguns is probably (range aside) as good as 4 Psycannons, and they get more Bolter shots.  TL for free.

 

How about this for a comparison then.

 

Dev Centurions with TL ML and TL LC (I'm going to assume the worst cost at 100 points per) compared to Heavy Slot Dreads.

 

At 300 points, these are more expensive than two 'Hellfire' style Dreads, but have the same Hull points (all be it with a 2+ Save to ignore Hull point loss...) and an extra ML and TL-LC shot per turn.

 

Can fire at two targets, just like two Dreads.  And the ML are all TL, unlike the Dreads.

 

On top of the 2+ Save, you can also give them (for free) Stealth, or 6+FnP (or Tank Hunters).

 

Stick three behind an Aegis to give them either a larger Cover Save (with Stealth), or the additional Save from FnP.

 

Why choose Dreads again?

 

And if I wanted GK Dreads, I could just ally in 3+ Centurions instead.

 

 

Actually, these three Dev Centurions are exactly equal to two GK 'Hellfire' Dreads...  And this is worst case estimate on cost, taking the most expensive choice for both weapon upgrades.

 

And the dreads would suck up two Heavy FoC slots...

 

You could take 6 of these Devs, equivalent to 4 Hellfire Dreads, for a single FoC slot...

 

Balance?

 

Ah, the ML aren't TL.  Small mercies I guess? Oh and let's hope these aren't 'characters' becuase if they are, precision shots aside, they could potentially be given IWND as well as FnP...

[Captain Idaho]

Well like you said, range matters.

 

And 300 points is a lot of points.

 

Reason for taking Dreads is they live in a different slot and aren't scared of plasma weapons. If you're a GK player, can you really afford to take an allied HQ and Troops just to fork out on 300pts of Centurions?

[Gentlemanloser]

They're the same slot as our Dreads. And behind an Aegis with Stealth, I'd not be afraid of Plasma Weapons either.

And my Dread *are* scared of Plasma. I've had enough Glanced to death by Rapid fire PG in 6th... We don't get AV13 Dreads. :(

And of course we can. We pay similair points for our Dreads, and Paladin. 5 Paladin with 2 Psycannons costs us 315.

And well, we have the Wizard of space and time for 12 point Troop Units.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah but if you are taking Centurions as Allies, you've not gained a bargain. You're paying points on an HQ, Troops choice minimum.

[Gentlemanloser]

That depends on your list, and your wants.

 

 

Personally, I've always missed, and wanted Snipers for my GK.

 

I use DA allies to get those.  A Divination Inquiaitor (65 point Libby) and his Sniper Warrior Accolytes (5 Man Scout Squad).

 

It's possible I could do the same with the new SM Dex *and* replace both my Paladin and Dreads with the superior Centurions.

 

Win/Win all round.

 

 

That still doesn't influence the analysis that these Centurions are *better*, and make options in my dex redundant.

[Brother Maikel]

Right now C:SM libbies don't get Div.  I haven't heard any rumours about what disciplines they may or may not have come September, but you may be stuck with taking Tigurius (and therefore UM "chapter tactics") in order to take Centurions with Div powers.

 

That said, Tiggy is looking like he'll be fantastic (reroll choices on psychic power chart, access to all disciplines), so that may or may not be an issue.

 

 

Regardless, Centurions only make options in our dex redundant if you are already planning to run C:SM allies (or aren't already planning to run other allies and don't mind paying the HQ/T tax), don't already have a HS choice picked out (Stormraven), and you don't regularly face poison, bladestorm, or non-strength-based ID weapons (d-scythes, etc).  YMMV, but I don't really see dreads/pallies as redundant just because of Centurions.

[Gentlemanloser]

It all depends on the lists folk run.

I don't see a lot of allies used with GK lists, maybe some IG.

I'm not too worried about SM lacking Div Libbies. Maybe one of thier other HQs will be a better fit for me.

As for Poison/Bladestorm, Centurions will fair just as well as our Pallies facing these. Unless they're behind an Aegis and have a 3+ Cover Save that is.

Really, if any of us are thinking of taking Paladin or Dreads in our lists, we should consider replacing them with Centurion. We won't have to make much of a sacrifice to do so.

And 4 Stormraven lists?

Edit: Or we run SM as primary, and take our GK units as Allies...

[Brother Maikel]

I was thinking more of wanting a SM Stormraven instead of a GK one, since their missiles are a lot better than ours against vehicles/non-psyker MCs (and actually useful vs flyers/FMCs).

 

As for taking SMs as primary, why run GK at all?  What can we add to that army that Tau/IG/Eldar can't?  For midrange shooting Firewarriors or sniper kroot are almost strictly better than GK, are battle brothers (so can benefit from psychic powers and ATSKNF), and are cheaper to boot.  Eldar provide cheaper/better offensive psychic powers (with more options), and Guard allies give you both the Vendetta and more squads than we can field of cheap troops that can blob up for Relic/Purge and are again Battle Brothers (yeah, their flashlights are bad compared to our "guardsmen's" bolters, but that's not why SMs bring Guard allies).

 

Centurions are big, slow, and have no invuln.  They can't deep strike, can't benefit from Grand Strategy, lack our extra psychic defence, are mediocre at best in combat vs any squad bigger than about 10 models, and are expensive to boot.  If you are already planning to bring C:SM units, Dev Centurions are a valid alternative to Dreads, and I can see situations where Assault Centurions might be better than Paladins.  If you aren't already bringing C:SM units, I personally wouldn't say the upside is big enough to pay to ally them in just to get Centurions.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

why run GK at all?

 

I find myself asking that quite often. ;)  I once made a thread asking this, it wasn't received too well. ;)

 

 

Centurions are big, slow, and have no invuln.  They can't deep strike,
can't benefit from Grand Strategy, lack our extra psychic defence, are
mediocre at best in combat vs any squad bigger than about 10 models, and
are expensive to boot.

 

They have no Invulnerable save, but can compensate with either a better than average Cover Save, or FnP.  Or they can take +1 to thier Deny rolls, and be nearly as good as GK squads for Psychic Defense.

 

And if you don't mind the 24" range (and what GK player should!) Grav Cannons are stupidly good.

 

Let's not speculate about the potential for them to take Drop Pods either. ;)  Who really thinks that podding three down first turn with Internal Guidance Systems is really a balanced idea!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

You don't need it on S9 either. The only thing Paladins win out on is IDing T5, after a Psychic Test to activate Hammerhand.

But they go on I1.

Assault Centurions go on I4. Which is a massive bonus over NDH.

For real? I cannot believe that. They're not Unwieldy? That has to be a mistake.

You can dismiss them, but I've rolled enough 1's in my time.

And 6 TL HB > 6 Stormbolters.

Bolters need to be in sufficient quantity to be relevant. Also, as I understand it, the Dev versions are the ones with HB's, the Assault ones get hurricanes, heavy flamer or melta. Dev's die in melee to Paladins.

Don't get this point. MG break stormhammers armour by default. Psycannons have to rend.

Meltaguns do not ignore their 3+ storm shield save however. Psycannons are forcing more saves, and a couple of Rending saves as well. Thus, more Stormhammers die on average to 16 psycannon shots as opposed to 6 meltagun shots.

I find myself asking that quite often. I once made a thread asking this, it wasn't received too well.

Well yeah haha, you're on this board. Knights are still a top tier army, we just need to think carefully about matchups and unit selection. I almost the miss the days of endless flamewars across the internet about how we 'broke' 40k...

Let's not speculate about the potential for them to take Drop Pods either. Who really thinks that podding three down first turn with Internal Guidance Systems is really a balanced idea!

From what I've seen you can't pod them (wait for codex to drop of course). They can be Land Raider'd though. Even walking it only takes them 1-2 turns to be in weapon range of the enemy and at that point the grav cannons kill everything bar vehicles.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

For real? I cannot believe that. They're not Unwieldy? That has to be a mistake.

 

Saw that on Faeits site (spelling? lol).  Guess we need to wait for the Dex on this.

 

 

Bolters need to be in sufficient quantity to be relevant. Also, as I understand it, the Dev versions are the ones with HB's, the Assault ones get hurricanes, heavy flamer or melta. Dev's die in melee to Paladins.

 

Soz, abrreviated Hurricane Bolters there. ;) The Assaults can upgrade the 'nades to TL Hurricane Bolters.  To Pew Pew alongside thier TL Flamers or TL MG.

 

 

Meltaguns do not ignore their 3+ storm shield save however. Psycannons are forcing more saves, and a couple of Rending saves as well. Thus, more Stormhammers die on average to 16 psycannon shots as opposed to 6 meltagun shots.

 

Not sure they do.  As you need rends to negate the 2+.  I'll mathhammer it later.

 

 

 They can be Land Raider'd though.

 

Raven Centurions.  Scout the Dedicated LR. ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

Facing 10 Stormhammers is;

 

1: 6 x Assault Centurion, TL Hurricane Bolters, TL Meltaguns (worst case estimate, 600 points)

 

2: 10 x Paladin, 6 x Storm Bolters, 4 x Psycannons (630)

 

 

The Centurons first; (and due to 12" Range, in Rapid Fire of the Stormhammers)

 

6 Meltagun shots, 4 hits, 1.33 rerolls, 5.33 hits in total.  4.44 Wounds.  1.48 Unsaved Wounds.

36 Bolter Shots, 24 hits.  8 rerolls, 32 hits in total.  10.67 Wounds.  1.78 Unsaved Wounds.

 

Total: 3.26 Unsaved Wounds

 

 

Next, the Paladin;

 

16 Psycannon shots, 10.67 Hits.  8.89 Wounds of which;

1.48 Rending Wounds. 0.49 Unsaved Wounds

7.41 Normal Wounds. 1.24 Unsaved Wounds

12 Bolter Shots, 8 Hits.  2.67 Wounds.  0.45 Unsaved Wounds

 

Total: 2.18 Unsaved Wounds

 

Versus Stormhammers, Assault Centurions are cheaper *and* outshoot Paladin.

 

They then go on to asault to two S9, AP2, I4 Armourbane drills in CC.

 

Edit: If you're just looking at TL MG versus Psycannons facing the Stormhammers (and you really shouldn't discount the Bolters...) then it's;

 

6 x TL-MG: 1.48 Unsaved Wounds

16 x Psycannon: 1.73 Unsaved Wounds

 

The Psycannons cause 17% more unsaved wounds than just the Meltaguns.

[Captain Idaho]

Your pessimism is misplaced, at least in this case. Why are you letting those Assault Centurions to move into melta range without shooting them? 40K just doesn't work that way. Any player in the world worth his salt won't just let the Centurions walk right up to the Paladins unopposed,

[Gentlemanloser]

Becuase they disembarked from the LRC.  Our your opponent shot them and failed to wound thier T5/2+ Save.  Or your opponent focused on other units.  Or they're attacking an enemy unit that Infiltrated / Deep Struck / Scouted into range with them.  Or, or.

 

The reasons are multitude and rather meaningless.

 

It was suggested that Assault Centurions couldn't outshoot Paladin when facing Stormhammers (which couldn't have shot them on thier way to them...).  It appears they can.

 

At 12".

 

At 24", well, they only have 18 TL Bolter shots, compared to the Paladin squads 12 SB shots and 16 Psycannons.

[Captain Idaho]

But then you've just explained why Paladins are a valid choice over Centurions. To get any use out of assault Centurions you need a futher 250pts plus.

 

I don't know what your gripe is really? You're complaining Paladins are no where near as good as Centurions so poor GK players cannot compete, but it's obvious they are only better in certain circumstances - like any units in comparison to each other.

[Gentlemanloser]

So Paladin shooting is *marginally* better at 24", and thier CC and shooting at 12" is significantly worse, so the Centurions are better in every other aspect of the game.  Bar shooting at 24",  and we should be ok with that?  (And you don't need a 250 point transport, as much a Paladin need one to get them into CC)

 

With the Centurions being cheaper as well.

 

And still not taking any of the free chapter special abilities either.

 

If you don't care about CC prowess, you don't really want to compare Paladin shooting at 24" with Grav Cannon Centurion.

 

Whoever thought Salvo 5 weapons on relentless minis was a good idea, should quite frankly be stopped from making any more game design decisions.