Centurions

[Captain Idaho]

Since when has 16 S7 Rending shots and massed S5 shots been rubbish? So what you're saying is Paladins can't out shoot Devastator Centurions with Grav weapons, then the Paladins are made obsolete?

 

That's wrong, so very wrong.

 

1) Paladins have great close combat and shooting abilities. Assault Centurions need Landraiders to assault or they're useless. Devastator Centurions need to avoid assault or else they're completely useless. Paladins can operate without a transport happily in the midfield, since anyone who approaches will get shot to death or assaulted as required.

 

2) Paladins have just as good army beefs as Centurions, just in different ways. Rad grenades, Hallucination grenades, super Librarians, psychic power beefs... It's phenomenal. If you're worried a Raven Guard player will stick his Grav Amp Centurions in the backfield behind an Aegis Defence line, then you don't need to worry about grav weapons killing off your models because they are quite short ranged. 

 

3) Salvo 5 weapons on models that cost 60pts base (probably another 15pts per model for the upgrade too) is overpowered, yet you're complaining about Paladins? I don't remember people from GK forums complaining about Paladins having 4 Psycannons with Divination...

 

I'm sorry but this really sounds like you're being overly pessimistic and suffering the usual Chicken Little syndrome with the release of a new Codex. You're complaining about a unit which is very expensive, in small numbers, short ranged, specialised at a role, competes with other crucial Heavy Support choices, outgunning your Paladins at 24" using certain weapon upgrades?

 

What do you want? 3 wound, Toughness 5, AP2 Storm Bolters and a 3+ invulnerable save Paladin? The only comparisons I've seen are Obliterators and Centurions, not Paladins so I don't know why you are so doom and gloom.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Also ignoring the flexibility of Paladins (which does matter), and our ability to make them scoring. 

 

I think Dev Centurions have merit in our lists, and may even replace PsyDreads depending on the cost comparison. However, Assault Centurions are not as effective as Stormhammers in the same role. I'd honestly rather Ally Stormhammers if Paladins are too lackluster for you, more manz, 3+ invul and Deepstrike built in. 

[shortysl]

I run Grey Knights on occasion, and I've missed pretty much all of the Centurion rules so I'll ask this: How do Assault Centurions get Strength 9 AP2 at Initiative? What are they armed with?!

[boreas]

So Paladin shooting is *marginally* better at 24", and thier CC and shooting at 12" is significantly worse, so the Centurions are better in every other aspect of the game. Bar shooting at 24", and we should be ok with that? (And you don't need a 250 point transport, as much a Paladin need one to get them into CC)

Underlining is mine. While I agree that GW is (again) going the codex creep, I find that funny. I guess we do not have a choice about "being ok with that". But it still reminds me the old =I= anger at GW.

I hear SW are due next year. If memory serves well, we were not far behind? Maybe in 18 months we'll get Paladin Centurions with 3 wounds and better Grand Strategy (force weapon stormbolters!!!)?

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Since when has 16 S7 Rending shots and massed S5 shots been rubbish?

 

Never said it was CI...

 

 

So what you're saying is Paladins can't out shoot Devastator Centurions with Grav weapons, then the Paladins are made obsolete?

 

That's wrong, so very wrong.

 

Not saying that either.  Except that the shooting prwess of Grav Centurions far exceeeds the shooting prowess of Paladin.

 

 

1) Paladins have great close combat and shooting abilities. Assault Centurions need Landraiders to assault or they're useless. Devastator Centurions need to avoid assault or else they're completely useless. Paladins can operate without a transport happily in the midfield, since anyone who approaches will get shot to death or assaulted as required.

 

How are you delivering the Paladin?  They need a LR as well.

 

Assault Centurions outshoot (in the vast majoriy of situations) Paladin, and out CC them.

 

 

2) Paladins have just as good army beefs as Centurions, just in different ways. Rad grenades, Hallucination grenades, super Librarians, psychic power beefs... It's phenomenal. If you're worried a Raven Guard player will stick his Grav Amp Centurions in the backfield behind an Aegis Defence line, then you don't need to worry about grav weapons killing off your models because they are quite short ranged.

 

Set up Aegis just outside your DZ.  Park Dev Centurions behind it in midfield.  Profit.

 

 

3) Salvo 5 weapons on models that cost 60pts base (probably another 15pts per model for the upgrade too) is overpowered, yet you're complaining about Paladins? I don't remember people from GK forums complaining about Paladins having 4 Psycannons with Divination...

 

Becuase overall, Paladin get half the shooting attacks of equivalent units.  Centurions get a second gun and the ability to shoot both. 

 

 

I'm sorry but this really sounds like you're being overly pessimistic and suffering the usual Chicken Little syndrome with the release of a new Codex. You're complaining about a unit which is very expensive, in small numbers, short ranged, specialised at a role, competes with other crucial Heavy Support choices, outgunning your Paladins at 24" using certain weapon upgrades?

 

I just saw that the ML & LC upgrades only cost 10 each, not the 20 I estimated.  That makes three of those cost 240 points.  Cheaper than two Hellfire Dreads.  30 points cheaper than two Psydreads.

 

 

What do you want? 3 wound, Toughness 5, AP2 Storm Bolters and a 3+ invulnerable save Paladin? The only comparisons I've seen are Obliterators and Centurions, not Paladins so I don't know why you are so doom and gloom.

 

I'd like some parity.  5 shot, AP 2 weapon, with T5 and the ability to shoot a second weapon for (lets worst case) 80 points.  While a Psycannon Paladin is 75.  I'd pay 5 points for a hurricane bolter in addition to my Psycannon and T5 to stop ID by Melta/Krak.

 

Wouldn't you?

 

[Captain Idaho]

No, I wouldn't. I like Paladins the way they are. If my Honour Guard were similar in rules I'd be happy.

[Gentlemanloser]

25 point, Power Weapon using Marines.

 

Quite close in points to PAGK now...

 

How many Attacks do Honour Guard get?  Do they have bolters or Bolt Pistols?

 

 

No, I wouldn't. I like Paladins the way they are.

 

Seriosuly CI?  You wouldn't pay 5 points to give your Paladin T5 and a TL Hurricane Bolter (in addition to thier SB/Psycannon)?

 

Really?  I don't buy that.  That would be one of 40ks best buys!

[Brother Maikel]

Seriosuly CI?  You wouldn't pay 5 points to give your Paladin T5 and a TL Hurricane Bolter (in addition to thier SB/Psycannon)?

 

Really?  I don't buy that.  That would be one of 40ks best buys!

 

Except you aren't just paying 5pts for T5 and a Hurricane Bolter.

 

You're trading 5pts, WS5, 1A, Brotherhood Banner access, extra psychic defence, an invulnerable save, force weapons (optionally at I6), run moves/overwatch, deep strike, holocaust, combat squadding, and many situational bonuses vs Daemons for T5 and a Hurricane Bolter.  Not to mention all of the extra support available to Paladins in the form of

Divination powers, psychotroke/rad/blind grenades, Grand Strategy, optional permanent scoring status, etc.

[Gentlemanloser]

Yes, and including all the support Centurions can get.  Stealth/Tank Hunters/reroll 1's/FnP.  Divination from Tiggy, etc.

 

They are totally different units, especially when considering armies as a whole.

 

That doesn't mean you can't objectively compare them.

 

Like three ML/TLLC Centurions taking a single FoC and being cheaper than taking two Hellfire *or* Psydreads.  Which also take two FoC slots.

 

The 5 pont cost I was talking about didn't include Invulnerable trades, or other options.

 

But I guess we'll have to wait till the dex is out before I'm able to convince folk that Centurions are silly, and steal the limelight/role from multiple other units in the game.

[Captain Idaho]

Don't get me wrong I'm happy to have the Honour Guard I have but I'd prefer Paladin esq rules so they are mini heros etc.

 

But there is a place for Paladins still in the army. They aren't as bad as they used to be but I still think smaller squads work well enough.

[Gentlemanloser]

Oh I still stand that 5 Paladin are a better investment than 10 GKT. ;)

 

I just feel that both pale now when you have the option of taking Centurion.

 

Unless you really, really must fill your obligatory FoC troop slots with TDA.

[Captain Idaho]

Ha it's funny I'm a Space Marines player and I'm the opposite; I'm not sold on Centurions quite yet because of the range problems. It's horrible when you get shot to pieces by Tau etc because you're too far away.

 

We're both doing a grass is greener thing here, so I guess we need to get some practice in eh!

[Gentlemanloser]

For sure!

Edit: touching back onto Honour Guard, they come with Bolt Pistol, Bolter and Power Weapon.

In AA, for 25 points.

Wow.

I'm assuming 2A base, so 3A with thier Power Weapon. And the ability to shoot the Bolter if they're not going to charge or on overwatch.

2+ Save Marines for just about the same costs as ours.

Yeah, these can't score. If they could why would you run anything but these for your PA guys?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'm glad Honour Guard are a non-retarded price. It means people will actually look at them now as a viable melee option, instead of just looking at Stormhammers and going 'well...'. 

 

I reckon for Knights, Dev Centurions are worthwhile, not the Assault ones though. We already have plenty of melee options, but for 48" shooting that can't get blown up by a Riptide in one go, Dev Centurions look solid. FYI GL, the whole thing of 'they only take up one Heavy slot' doesn't matter, Allies only get one slot and it doesn't affect our existing three Heavy slots for the primary Knight list. Same for Assault Centurions as Elites. 

 

I still think their assault drills at I4 cannot be true. If it is though...well, Stormhammers will have actual competition in Elites. Not to mention a plethora of armies will scream shenanigans when you field such monstrosities. As you mentioned GL, they come with excellent short-range guns as well, melta's no less (urgh, and they're twin-linked). 

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, assuming points aren't the issue, if you wanted to field 4 Dreads and an NDK or new AA vehicle, you'd be out of luck. (Lets not mention the cluster :cuss that is dual FoC! :P)

 

But you could replace your 4 Dreads with a single FoC heavy choice of 6 Centurion (for cheaper... 480 versus 540) and now still have a potential 3 Heavy slots left for NDKs, AA tanks, LR, whatever.

 

If the Assault Drills are I1, then the Assault Centurions are rubbish.  No one will use them, as they don't have an Invulerable save to live to I1 to get to attack.  They get binned for Grav Cannon Devs every time.

 

Is it wrong of me that I'm looking at a RG Trait marine army, using mass Bolter Scouts with Cloaks (5+ Cover *in the open*!), maybe a single sniper Squad, with Grav Cannon Centurions and Honour Guard? ;)

[Captain Idaho]

Absolutely not! Though if you can find a way to fit Devastator Centurions and Honour Guard in a Landraider into a 1500pts list without losing too much awesome then I want to hear about it! I'm struggling to keep my Dreads and have boots on the ground AND have enough points for Honour Guard, Landraider and Centurions.

 

If only a Drop Pod wasn't a death trap!

[Gentlemanloser]

Well no LR at 1500, and probably using incorrect points, but how about something like;

 

HQ: Chapter Master (100)

HQ: Chapter Master (100)

HQ: Honour Guard x10 (250)

HQ: Honour Guard x10 (250)

 

Troop: Scout x5, Sniper, Cloak (70)

Troop: Scout x10, Bolter, Cloak (140)

Troop: Scout x10, Bolter, Cloak (140)

 

Heavy: Dev Centurion x6, Grav Cannon (480)

 

Fortification: Aegis Defense Line (50)

 

Total: 1,480

 

Aegis infront of your DZ, Centurions walk behind it.  Snipers for home objective, Bolter Scouts to pew pew like Tac's.  Chapter Masters attach to Honour Guard and footslog.

 

Something like that.

 

Add more Bolter Scouts if increasing points past 1,500 (drop the Centurion to 3 if they proove overkill), grab some LS Storms for the scouts maybe.

 

But this is probably getting a little off topic now. ;) 

 

So, GK allies.  I'm not sure there's much that the GK could add to this, bar a 55 point Divination Inq added to 5 Strikes (for Warp Quake) and an NDK with Heavy Incinerator.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Tau would rip that list apart, and they wouldn't even need to stray for their standard build to do it. 

 

For starters, all your Scouts are likely dead by Turn 2. Between his Missilesides, Riptides, Shas'la and Sniper Kroot...yeah nah. Also, all his tanks have SMS ignoring your cover saves and S5 shots. So, that's your scoring dead. 5/6 missions is a loss, unless you can somehow reach his lines and table him. 

 

But wait, it gets even better...

 

You then have 20 2+ armour dudes on foot, and one unit with 24" guns and SnP. As Tau player, I'd then just use the Riptides to blow up the Honour Guard (melee isn't something I'd enjoy, especially power swords to the face). Once the Honour Guard are dead, I then focus down the Centurion unit. 

[Gentlemanloser]

RG Scout is Turn one only, so it's craptastic anyway. ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

Confirmation (of sorts) that the Siege Drills are *not* Unwieldy.

 

 

Siege drills (assault centurions) S9 AP2 Armorbane, specialist

weapon. They are not unwieldy (so you strike at initiative)- and since they are

specialist weapons, you get +1 attack for having a pair and an additional +1

for charging into melee with them.

 

What a stupid idea...

 

S9, AP2, on initiative weapons, 3 attacks on the charge.

[Captain Idaho]

Still won't see many on the board. Not when other assault units are so much cheaper. I actually think they've overpriced Centurions. I can get more assault power or shooting with the same points.

 

Devastator Centurions might still find a place but not assault variants.

 

If I'm wrong I'll eat my Oath of Moment.

[Gentlemanloser]

For Assault power, there are rare units that can inflict AP2 on initiative.  This alone makes them one of the best CC units.

 

For shooting, they have been given a special rule to mitigate the problem other multi wound units have.  The ability to have, and shoot, two weapons each.

 

Paladin don't get this, and can only shot a single weapon, where you can easily field twice the amount of Paladin, for the same cost.  Making thier shooting half as effective.

 

Not so with Decimator Protocols.  Especially as they have :cussing Hurricane Bolters.  That's like having three Bolter shooting minis per Centurion *and* a second special/heavy weapon on top.

 

Take an Assault Centurion with Hurricane Bolter and TL Flamer (can always swap to TL MG for +5 poiints).

 

That's a 60 point unit that shoots three Bolters and a Flamer (all twin linked as well).  So you're getting in essence 4 mini's worth of shooting form a 60 point unit.  That's 15 points a shot.

 

With TL, T5 and a 2+ save.

 

What other unit puts out that amount of shooting?

 

Then, what other unit put out that amount of shooting *and* hits in CC with S9, AP2 on initiative?

 

That is what makes Assault Centurion stand out, and I'm surprised more don't see it.

[Captain Idaho]

Damn you make a tempting sale! But I'll stick to my Honour Guard.

 

Going forward I expect the Lascannon and Missile Launcher variant (most expensive of course) to be popular since a squad of Centurions can hide at the back and hurt 2 targets a turn. You can also get away with less of them that way.

 

I take on board your position regarding Assault Centurions, but I still doubt many people will bother with them.

[Gentlemanloser]

:P I like Honour Guard as well. ;)

 

I don't really like the LC/ML version.  Twin Auto Dreads outperform them on anything that isn't a Land Raider.

 

But Grav Cannons are rediculous. :/

 

For me, it's Grav Cannon Dev's, or MG Assaults.  MG Assaults have it all, while the GC Devs can be tarpitted in CC, only having a S5 AP- attacks.

 

The usual consideration is delivery.  But when isn't it! ;)

[Captain Idaho]

I just have a feeling my Centurions will struggle to get close enough to lay down the pain with Grav weapons against Tau or Imperial Guard, especially on the silly long table edge. :(