Centurions

[Gentlemanloser]

They can't be given Scout by the Raven Guard Traits (Boo!), nor The Grand Strategy any more (Boo Hiss!).

 

So if deploying them on the edge of your DZ isn't going to cut it, it looks like they might require a Stromraven/LR transport.

 

I'd be hesitant to do that though.  That's a lot of points to tie up together.

 

I suppose at a long shot there's always a SM Libby with Gate...

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm getting kinda bored harping on about these.  Where's the dead horse smiley?

 

But it's just occured to me that (scoring aside, consider the SM 'dex that can't get scoring Terminators...);

 

6 x Assault Centurion, 6 x TL Meltagun, 6 x Hurricane Bolters = 400 points.

 

10 x Terminator, 10 x Storm Bolter, 10 x Power Fist/Nemesis Weapon = 400 points.

 

/facepalm

 

So for the same cost, instead of 10 Wounds in 2+ Save, 20 Storm Bolter shots and 20 CC attacks, you can get;

 

12 wounds in 2+ Save, 18/36 Twin Linked Bolter Shots, 6 Twin Linked Meltaguns, 12 S9, AP2 CC attacks on Initiative.  And Toughness 5.

 

Even at 24" Range, 18 Twin Linked shots are better than 20 normal shots.  20 shots nets you 13.33 hits.  18 TL shots nets you 16 hits...  And at 12" that doubles.

 

No one else think that Hurricane Bolters on Centurions are stupid?  Be glad they can't Overwatch.

[Captain Idaho]

As a Space Marines player I don't think they're stupid ;)

 

Well we'll have to see. I'm always loath to do cross Codex comparisons. I think the biggest weakness to the squad you mentioned is mobility. They can't get close easily on some maps.

 

Actually the biggest weakness in my eyes is the £47.50 price tag for 3!

[Gentlemanloser]

LoL!

 

It specifically wasn't a cross Codex comparison though.

 

10 x Space Marine Terminators are 400 points, with 10 Storm Bolters, 9 Power Fists and 1 x Power Sword.

 

And they don't score, just like Centurion don't score.

 

If you're not paying to take TH/SS for the 3++, why ever bother to take a Tactical Terminator again?

[Captain Idaho]

They've been a little obsolete for the past few editions unfortunately.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I don't even remember the last time I've seen Tactical Terminators, outside of our codex. Even Deathwing go full Stormhammer, and thats with their free twin-link on arrival ability. If Knights could we'd happily trade our storm bolters for storm shields. 

[banis]

Tactical Terminators with storm bolters have been meh since rouge trader sadly and where only used in 3-4 edtion because of the double heavy weapon option.

The new centurions have alot of potential but also some of bad matchups. I can't wait to face a grav spam army with my daemons

The guns cant even wound most of the stuff.

And the assault centurions suffer from no inv save and few attacks. Point for point they get fewer attacks than storm hammer termies and they are already on the low side.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Point for point they get fewer attacks than storm hammer termies and they are already on the low side.

 

10 x TH/SS Terminators now cost 450 points.  Sure, each individual Centurion has 2 CC attacks, as does each individual TH/SS Terminator.  And the cost is 60 to 45.

 

TH/SS terminators have the durability to live until I1 thanks to thier SS, Centurion don't have to live to I1 as they hit on I4.  Which is massive.  Especially with the Initative modifying wargear/abilities in game now.

 

What this ignores is that TH/SS Terminators, while having high durability form thier 3++ save, lose any sort of shooting attack.

 

The Centurion have comparable CC attacks, and also have TL Hurricane Bolters and TL Meltaguns.  And T5.

 

I wouldn't say they have 'few attacks' at all. ;)

[Vorenus]

I guess I am the minority report here, but I regularly use so-called "Tactical" Terminators.  I usually run 5 or 6 with an Assault Cannon in a Godhammer Land Raider (5 if I add an Independent Character, 6 if not).  I've been fielding a unit like that off and on for the past three years and had a lot of success with it.

 

Sometimes I don't bother with the Land Raider and just Deep Strike the Terminators.  Unlike Assault Terminators, I can attack (by shooting) the first turn I arrive via Deep Strike.  I've used this to position me behind enemy armor to get lots of Storm Bolter and Assault Cannon shots on vulnerable rear armor.

 

Honestly, I'm a bit surprised by all the negativity about standard Terminators.  They are a tough unit, and have fought well for me in many battles.

[banis]

Point for point they get fewer attacks than storm hammer termies and they are already on the low side.

10 x TH/SS Terminators now cost 450 points. Sure, each individual Centurion has 2 CC attacks, as does each individual TH/SS Terminator. And the cost is 60 to 45.

TH/SS terminators have the durability to live until I1 thanks to thier SS, Centurion don't have to live to I1 as they hit on I4. Which is massive. Especially with the Initative modifying wargear/abilities in game now.

What this ignores is that TH/SS Terminators, while having high durability form thier 3++ save, lose any sort of shooting attack.

The Centurion have comparable CC attacks, and also have TL Hurricane Bolters and TL Meltaguns. And T5.

I wouldn't say they have 'few attacks' at all.

Having played alot of blood angels the last few years th/ss terminators now costing 45 is old news

Im not saying the assault centurions are bad, just that they aren't the as OP as some people here seems to think.

Hitting on I4 is all fine and dandy untill you meet something that hits on I5 and above.. Something alot of the nastier CC units have.

And having shooting attacks on a CC unit is great untill you don't make the charge because off it.

It seems to me that reagular th/ss terminators will outpreform assault cents in alot of CC situations. Even against each other.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

It seems to me that reagular th/ss terminators will outpreform assault cents in alot of CC situations. Even against each other.

 

Of course they will! ;)

 

But they lose out in all Shooting engagements! :P

[BloodTzar]

To be honest, don't find the Dev cents to be all that useful. Not only the unit by it self is utterly overpriced, however they cannot hold their own in assault. 

 

Last game I had against my friend; I have wiped them (Dev Cents, 2Las,1 with grav, cyclones)  T3 whit  DCA with Crusaders as meat shield that charged them out of the SR and axe-d them to death. On the other hand, their shooting for 2 turns was most of the time negated by (Night Fight) cover / Luck.

 

The main problem I see is their SnP on profile, that makes them  such a juicy target. Moreover nowadays, there is really no safe "backfield" as most of the armies can get at them t3.

[jamsight]

@ Gentlemanlooser I would be happy to hear what you believe would improve the Centurions or Paladins.

 

Centurions are this releases big thing so they have made them a little bit OP to make them sell it happened with techmarines when they had the re-sculpt remember they had 2 wounds and I think Ws5 (although not 100% sure) so by doing that techmarines where the must have guys in your army now they are just better equipped  space marine Sargent, next up we have Sammael this guy is a beast a plasma cannon, jet bike, Eternal Warrior and an AP 2  power sword why ? because the models is £30 and GW want that £30 off you!  So my point is this next edition centurions will most likey have a points increase or something to counter balance their hitting power and also because it's more important that we all buy the next big thing.

 

thanks for reading 

 

(sorry for being abit ranty)

[boreas]

Quite frankly, I've been juggling around the different units and builds in the new SM codex and I just come back to my good old GK codex.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

@ Gentlemanlooser I would be happy to hear what you believe would improve the Centurions or Paladins.

 

Remove Hurricane Bolters as an option from Assault Centurion.  Remove Decimator Protocols.  Increase thier Attacks to 2.  Make the Siege Drills Unwieldy.

 

They would probably need something to counteract this reduction.

 

As for Devs, Reduce Grav Cannons from Salvo 5.  That's rediculous.  But rather instead of nerfing Devs, make other choices (like Dreadnoughts) more appealing.

[jamsight]

But if you make the siege drills Unwieldy they would require an invulnerable save or 3 wounds so they could ride the attacks they would have to withstand alot of attention, what you suggesting is making them almost unplayable for example 3 Assault Centurions are charged by 5 terminators they are unable to overwatch because they have S+P and have 6 wounds it would be a whitewash since the terminators have a chance of ignoring their attacks and they would have 12 powerfist attacks and 3 powersword attack vs 7 siege attacks.

 

I do actually agree with the salvo 5 it is mad I would have had something like range 36 ap 2 blast or salvo 3 but include overwatch

[Gentlemanloser]

Why should Centurion attack Terminators in CC with AP2 weapon before the Powerfists and not at the same time?

 

Sure, they get no save, but can't be IDed by the S8 hits.

[jamsight]

but they don't have the survivability of terminators that 5++ is quite an edge also they are 20pts a model more and have  less attacks  they might not be instant deathed by powerfist but with no invulnerable save the point is moot.

[Gentlemanloser]

They have T5 and 2W so are more survivable to other CC weapons than Terminators.

 

Just because you list a bad matchup doesn't mean the overall balance is skewed.

[jamsight]

Also I've read your posts again and it seems to me you are all over the place with your discussion I know you are just answering other people's questions including mine but the jist is this you think that Centurions are overpowered compared to Paladins is this correct ? (not being arsey just getting a bead on your issue ;) ) 

[Gentlemanloser]

I think Assault Centurion (And Grav Cannons, but not Dev Centurion) are badly designed and too powerful.

 

I initially compared them to GK Paladin, as it was the closest other imperial 2W unit in the game.

 

The confusing aspect for Assault Centurion is "what are they designed to do"? 

 

They, with Hurricane Bolters (and decimator protocols and a special weapon) outshoot every other Marine unit in the game, point for point (including the free TL).

 

They have the best type of CC attack in the game (on initiative AP2) coupled with a high Strength (which can ID most units), and aren't restricted to a single attack (like GK for exmaple).

 

They have (limited) inbuilt protection to the largest weakness multi wound models face, Instant Death (needing rather rare S10 shooting, or Force/ID Melee Attacks).

 

What are they designed to do?  The 'assault' orientated unit is a 'devastating' shooting unit, while packing the same sort of punch in CC normally seen on MCs/Walkers.  Are they a dedicated CC unit?  Are they supposed to be the premier shooting unit?  Are they supposed to be mock MCs?

 

The Dev versions replace Dreadnoughts, why?  What purpose do they serve that can't be covered by Dreadnoughts or normal Devastators?  This is primarily in the ML/TLLC loadout.

 

Grav Cannons are just a bad joke.  But I don't hold that against Dev Centurions.

 

The Centurion are overly good, step on too many toes, and to be honest weren't needed.

[jamsight]

Grav weopens are just something new and different they aren't overpowered since orks according to my friend don't believe in gravity  salvo 5 as many gretchin as you want ;) I am just not feeling your hang up on the siege drills sorry I think they are crap with only a Ws 4 ,2 attacks ok the I boost is nice but they aren't worth bothering with in my reasoned judgement I would take Vanguard vets any day over Assault Centurions more options access to storm shields and fast moving plus the sheer hero factor as they lay the smackdown on the wraithknight.

 

Most two wound characters usually have access to an invulnerable so the T5 is just a different design idea it will sink or float   

 

You have me on the assault 'design' point 

 

Out shooting what exactly they have to get close to get that sweet 12" and my normal wolf list has 6 plasma and 4 las cannons just waiting for something like them ;)

 

5th point answered in opening...salvo....  I think the extra attack is just a carrot to sell the model don't stress over it it will be gone next ed and at ws 4 arn't all  that. 

 

Will continue later tired bed time for me ;) 

[Gentlemanloser]

Grav Weapons are fine.

 

Salvo 5 Grav guns on Renlentless platforms arent.

 

AP2 on initiative is rediculously powerful.  It's the holy grail of Assault in 6th.

 

 

Out shooting what exactly

 

Everything.  There no other Marine unit that can shoot 4 bolters and a Meltagun, all twin linked, for 60 points.

[jamsight]

Ah right 1st off you your paying 60pts for flamers and frag launchers upgrades for the hurricanes and meltas and at that price range you want the unit to put out abit more firepower. but thats just the devs and you haven't an issue with them 

 

the gav cannons are short range they can be avoided or nailed before they really cause a headache 

 

You got me on the design aspect but I believe the background for them is that other companies use them if they lack 1st company support but you are quite right they do tread on other units toes.

 

Don't hate Centurions because they out class dreadnoughts the sad fact is Dreads have been declining for years and with the arrive of hull points it's almost the nail in the coffin for them the only reason I include them in my Grey knight list at all is to provide 'cheap' long range firepower I have the fellhanded for my wolves and a Mk4 for my fists both haven't  to see the light of day in a long time I perfer to take terminators.

 

If you want dirty, I trust you've seen the Iron Hands Chapter Master on bike with all the grubbins ! thats just OP.

[Gentlemanloser]

Ah right 1st off you your paying 60pts for flamers and frag launchers

upgrades for the hurricanes and meltas and at that price range you want

the unit to put out abit more firepower. but thats just the devs and you

haven't an issue with them

 

60 points for a mini with Hurricane Bolters (free upgrade from Frag Launchers) and Flamer.  All Twinlinked.  65 for a TL Meltagun over the TL Flamer.

 

For those 60 points you get 3 Bolters and a Flamer.  That's *almost* a combat squad of Marines.  For 15 points a Marine.

 

With a 2+ Save, T5 (half the wounds...) and Twin Linked rolled in for free.

 

Did I mention all their weapons are Twin Linked?  For free.

 

Edit: I totally agree with Dreads being on the decline.  That why if you got equivalent shooting from Dev Centurion compared to the same points worth of Dreads, it would be a trade off.

 

Replace these in decline Hull Points, with Infantry models that could be torrent-ed by bolters, or not.  Decisions.

 

But to get 3 for 2 (or however many), that's just a slap in the face really.