Centurions

[Valerian]

They've been a little obsolete for the past few editions unfortunately.

In my mind the biggest issue with Tactical Terminators is that Storm Bolters are frankly quite underwhelming.  There is really no great loss in sacrificing your ranged weaponry, even if you have to pay 5 points extra now, to trade those Storm Bolters for Storm Shields - it's a no brainer.  This issue is exacerbated in the transition from 5e to 6e, where now the effectiveness of mobile Rapid Fire weapons has been enhanced; Storm Bolters even compare with regular Bolters worse now than they used to.  Many Heroes/Characters have access to Storm Bolters as a wargear option, but how many Marine players ever do this?  They don't even compare to other options that are available.

 

I have long thought that an enhancement to Storm Bolters is warranted, even if it is as simple as giving them 3 shots, vice just two; I think that really helps their viability. This adjustment would probably really serve well for regular Terminators and the occassional Sergeant, Veteran, or other Character issued a Storm Bolter.  The problem, however, arises when you bring in the Grey Knights, who all get Storm Bolters as standard, as an entire army.  I'm concerned that improving SBs might push the Knights back over the top; especially given our (current) ready access to PsyBolts (you might have to take those away, or at least limit availability to Paladins and Heroes, or something similar).

 

Would be interested to hear your thoughts.  I definitely think something needs to be done, however. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Storm Bolters are a downgrade compared to the old TDA loadout the chaos still uses.

 

I'd dump my SB for TL Bolters anyday.

 

The real issue with Terminators is they are too expensive for thier durability.  The inbuilt 5++ Save isn't enough.

 

If you can get two Marines for 30 points, why pay an extra 10 points for a single Terminator?

[Valerian]

Storm Bolters are a downgrade compared to the old TDA loadout the chaos still uses.

 

I'd dump my SB for TL Bolters anyday.

 

The real issue with Terminators is they are too expensive for thier durability.  The inbuilt 5++ Save isn't enough.

 

If you can get two Marines for 30 points, why pay an extra 10 points for a single Terminator?

 

It's a bit of a hard nut to crack, especially if you stay caught up in old ways of thinking.  The clear advantage of TDA made a lot of sense in 2e with saves on a 3+ on 2d6 (although with saving throw modifyers).  With the 3e and beyond transition to a single d6 for all saves, we get into some trouble; Terminators were once nigh invincible to small arms fire (required "snake eyes" on 2d6), but now fail against 17% of all wounding small arms hit.  Stacked saves are also no longer allowed, so unless you have Feel No Pain, even Terminators will melt to a torrent of small arms fire. 

 

They get the SCCWs (Power Fists, or what-have-you, depending on load-out), which give additional close combat capability, so can't be free, but this further drives up the cost.  As has been pointed out, they don't compare well when all factors are taken into account (especially when AP2 weapons are introduced). 

 

To "fix" it, I think my recommended improvement to Storm Bolters would help - make them 3 shots each.  Right now, a volley of shooting from a 5x Terminator Squad doesn't compare to shooting from a 10x Tactical Squad (especially within 12"), but you can get the Tac Squad for singnificantly less. 

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

Well the other issue with Storm Bolter, is there's no gain for Relentless.  Granted the change to Rapid Fire means it's only enabling them to charge now, and not improve thier shooting with bolters, but TDA should give something else to shooting thier primary guns.

 

Maybe make Storm Bolters (shudder) Salvo weapons?

[Valerian]

Something needs to be done. Storm Bolters supposed to be somewhat special (not plasma gun special, but a certain level of it), but they aren't. There are too many trade offs, especially for standard Tactical Terminators, to justify the investment. As someone else noted, back in 3e that was offset by the 2 TDA Heavy Weapons per 5 man rule; those two Assault Cannon (with the better old-fashioned Rending on hits vice wounds), made them worthwhile, but now...

 

I'm thinking for the survivability issue, you have to brink back the stacking of saves. Combining that 5++ Inv with the 2+ evens everything out well (like a Feel No Pain). You couldn't stack with the Storm Shield, though, because then they'd shoot from survivable to invincible (as experienced in RT and 2e). If you wrote the rule clearly enough, though, it could work.

 

V

 

Ps, sorry for getting so off-topic

[Gentlemanloser]

No need to apologise! :)

 

It could be easily written as something like;

 

"TDA provides the wearer a 5+ Invulnerable Save.  Unlike other Invulnerable saving throws, this can be taken in addition to an another Armour, Invulnerable or Cover Saving throw"

 

Gives a benefit to SS wearing TDA.

 

Imagine IH/BA TH/SS Terminators.  3++ then 5++ then 5+/6+ FnP. ;)

[boreas]

GW can change/retconn pretty much anything... They could give and "belt-feed" rule to termies (insert inane fluff about having more room in TDA for bolts) that makes their stormbolter assault 3 or 4. They could make a new weapon: "Terminator powerfist" that strikes at Ini. But GW doesn't feel the need to sell those models, so I'm pretty sure they won't see any improvement in the next decade :(

 

But, they do want to seel Centurions, hence those "strong" rules. I think it's sad that dreads are going the way of the dodo for the same commercial reasons.

[Sothalor]

What about something like... giving Storm Bolters an extra rule/stat/bonus if its wielder remained stationary during the Movement phase? Like... twin-linked?

 

According to the fluff, they're good at spewing tons of rounds in a short amount of time, hence the Assault weapon type. What if in addition to that, a stationary wielder or one with a stable firing platform (TDA) can better direct the stream of rounds or whatever.

 

That way, a model with Relentless gets to move and fire an Assault 2, Twin-Linked weapon. Granted, it doesn't mitigate the rather mediocre Strength/AP, but maybe a start.

[jamsight]

it's simple we 'rend' the stormbolters

[Gentlemanloser]

They gave that to Eldar. :(

[jamsight]

They gave that to Eldar.

Mate don't even go there !

[Quozzo]

Storm Bolters have an obvious advantage over Bolters, you only have to look at their profile to see that. What may not be so obvious is their ability on the table which is probably why they seem underpowered but they are none-the-less better. At max range they have twice as many shots as Bolters and at close range they have the same, whilst allowing you to assault. If you're bolters are close enough to rapid fire then your going to be screwed in their turn, giving you additional attacks to thin their squad before you get charged. Unless of course you have relentless and that was the plan all along, in which case if 1 shot at max range isn't enough then get a storm bolter. If two shots at max range aren't enough then get a Psycannon.

 

I feel the problem is that every weapon, or at least everyone wants every weapon, to be overly effective that at some point this inflation in power will cause the game to crumble. The game is about probability and chances over each turn, your Storm Bolters may miss an attack or two on turn 1 but turn 2 could give the extra wounds you need to cause a Morale check and send their squad packing, not wipe them out from the start.

[Gentlemanloser]

That's great for PA troops, but in TDA, you're Reltentless, so Rapid Fire isn't a drawback, and you're designed to be close.  Then there's the Twin Linking, if we're talking about Combi-bolters.

 

SB on Warrior Acolytes are the shizzle though. ;) 

[Quozzo]

So Chaos Terminators get twin linked storm bolters, we get NFW! I know which side of the heresy I'll choose.

[boreas]

I think the problem, Quizzo, is not SBolters per se. The problem is Non-assault Termies being so much below other termies for the same amount of points (that crumbling you're mentionning has happened around that unit). Changing SBolters for those would solve the problem. Obviously, changing Sbolters for everyone would be a problem as PAGKs and acolyte might become ridiculously good.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

So Chaos Terminators get twin linked storm bolters, we get NFW! I know which side of the heresy I'll choose.         

 

Chaos all the way! ;)

 

Divination without needing the Psycher or an overrated CC weapon that's lets be honest, not *really* going to help much more than a Power Fist would have anyway.

 

;)

[jamsight]

humm yer the eldar have to get in 12 inches be be affective thats a round of shooting them without them getting you ok they have battle focus but they still can't drive bomb away from the stormbolter like they could a bolter the only real way to get the most out of stormbolters is in 10 man units over wise your just getting 5 extra shots at long range  

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Storm bolters are fine. I think the real issue is that, for several editions now, Terminators have been too expensive unless they're Stormhammers. 

 

30 points base seems right, its one of the few things the Chaos codex got right. That way, a ten-man Tactical/whatever squad and a 5-man Terminator squad are about the same price base. Make axe/maul/sword+storm bolter as the base option, twin claws a free swap but you lose the storm bolter, fist 5pts, chainfist 10, thunderhammer+shield 15pts. Heavy weapons should be heavy flamer free (its absurd they charge for it at all in any of the codicies), assault cannon 10pts, CML 15pts, 1 per 5 dudes. 

 

I think for Knights, 40pts base makes sense, because we get psychic powers, free halberds+hammers, frag and kraks built in etc. 30pts would be too cheap. Staves should be 15 though, and falchions should be free (swords provide a relevant benefit in melee, so it wouldn't be that powerful, and falchions are still worse than twin lightning claws anyway). 

[Gentlemanloser]

RD, you still have the 20 to 40 cost, with Strikes outperforming TDA.

 

Either Strikes need ot increase in cost, or GKT need to decrease.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Nah, because one Terminator is easily better than two Strikes. He gives up one attack on the charge and a wound for a 2+ and a 5+ invul, free weapon swaps and Relentless psycannon. Strikes are about right, I think if they were cheaper they'd be broken. I just wish GW hadn't been dumb and left them with the option for personal teleporters, like in the first draft. They'd still be pricier than Bikers or Assault Marines, but make up for it with firepower and force weapons. 

[Gentlemanloser]

He gives up 2 storm bolter shots as well.

 

5++ isn't that nifty when you have 5+ Cover everywhere.

 

Basically they trade 2 shooting attacks, 1 attack on the charge and 1W for 2+ Save, Relentless (no effect on Storm Bolters as they are Assault Weapons) and free Melee Weapon Swap.

 

Not a great trade off...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

He gives up 2 storm bolter shots as well.

Not such a huge loss really. We're often out of range in the early game anyway, so it's not that noticeable. Also, Strikes can arguably do more damage to many enemy units in melee anyway, due to AP3 attacks and S5 on demand. Terminators should be shooting 2 turns max, if you're not at least in threat range to charge by then, the enemy have zoned you out. 

 

5++ isn't that nifty when you have 5+ Cover everywhere.

Tau and Eldar laugh at your cover saves. 5++ isn't amazing by any stretch (it's my belief Terminators should get non-improvable 4++, with storm shields letting them re-roll armour saves instead of the absurd 3++ they give currently), but it can't be removed by stupid psychic powers, wargear or markerlights. Also, 2+ armour laughs at Heldrakes, battle cannons etc. Riptides still cause a sadface, but they're broken absurdity anyway. Our PA squads have zero protection from Riptides, Terminators at least have a 1/3 chance to not die. 

 

Basically they trade 2 shooting attacks, 1 attack on the charge and 1W for 2+ Save, Relentless (no effect on Storm Bolters as they are Assault Weapons) and free Melee Weapon Swap.

 

Yeah, and in 6th edition, I'd say that our Terminators are more worthwhile. Relentless matters for the squad psycannon(s), Terminators are even more durable in melee now (hue hue hue AP in melee, nice one GW), and free weapon swap means free hammers or halberds, which is huge. Not to mention we retain the frags, kraks, psk-out and 'Hammerhand' of the Strike squad, plus the inbuilt ability to ID stuff due to force weapons. CSM and vanilla Marines wish they had our Terminators as Troops. 

[Gentlemanloser]

I don't disagree that compared to other 'nilla terminators ours rock (bar Wolfguard, who are the best Imperial Terminators).

 

Only in codex, they are sub par when compared to Strikes.

 

Especially when I view thread and read stuff like;

 

 

My buddy ran Iron Hands paired with a Grey Knight Terminator Detachment (Lib, 2 squads of 8 terms).

 

The mission was the relic. He deep struck one of his squads of gk's between the relic and the bulk of my army. He had a tactical squad behind him waiting to snatch it and jump back in the rhino and take off.

 

My two tactical squads shredded those terminators. I killed 4 of them in one turn with the grav weapons alone - the bolters and other stuff snuck a few wounds in as well. The next turn I wiped them out.

 

It was pretty crazy as I remember how much trouble those jerks and their stupid halberds gave me in the last edition. It was really nice to be able to handle them - with run of the mill troopers.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

I don't disagree that compared to other 'nilla terminators ours rock (bar Wolfguard, who are the best Imperial Terminators).

Meh, we can buy a banner for powerfist price that gives essentially 'Counterattack' but always on, and always on force weapons too. Not to mention you can still give them the real 'Counter-attack' via GM, if you need even more attacks standing still. Stormhammer Wolfguard are actually more expensive than vanilla Stormhammers. Counterattack is nice, no doubt, but I still think our Termies are better. Mainly because halberds are insane, especially after 'Furious Charge' has been nerfed. 

 

Only in codex, they are sub par when compared to Strikes.

On what basis? 

 

My buddy ran Iron Hands paired with a Grey Knight Terminator Detachment (Lib, 2 squads of 8 terms).

 

The mission was the relic. He deep struck one of his squads of gk's between the relic and the bulk of my army. He had a tactical squad behind him waiting to snatch it and jump back in the rhino and take off.

 

My two tactical squads shredded those terminators. I killed 4 of them in one turn with the grav weapons alone - the bolters and other stuff snuck a few wounds in as well. The next turn I wiped them out.

 

It was pretty crazy as I remember how much trouble those jerks and their stupid halberds gave me in the last edition. It was really nice to be able to handle them - with run of the mill troopers.

>Derpstriking into grav guns

>anecdotal evidence

 

I seem to recall you're usually quite wary of this kinda logic man. By way of comparison, I can give numerous examples where I fail 6 x 2+ saves in a row from basic bolter hits. Doesn't mean my experience in that one game is at all relevant (its annoying, but statistically unlikely). 

 

Grav-guns are great against Terminators and 3+ saves....and just about nothing else, because plasma beats it. So, he basically fed his elite low model count squads to an enemy gunline with specialist weapons designed to murder them....that's like saying because I charged my plasma cannon servitors into an Ork horde, they are worthless trash because they can't fight in melee. No, its because I did something incredibly stupid with them, and paid the price, because 6th edition punishes mistakes hard. 

 

In that scenario, I'd take psycannons and duel at 24", using cover and 'Shrouding' to make it hard for the grav gun wounds to stick. Or better yet, not engage them with Terminators and just nuke them with Coteaz+plasma cannon servitors. Tactical Marines have, in multiple games, melted horribly to that combo (re-rollable scatter, re-rollable 'Gets Hot!', if I rolled 'Perfect Timing' on Coteaz they have no saves whatsoever). 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Meh, we can buy a banner for powerfist price that gives essentially 'Counterattack' but always on, and always on force weapons too. Not to mention you can still give them the real 'Counter-attack' via GM, if you need even more attacks standing still. Stormhammer Wolfguard are actually more expensive than vanilla Stormhammers. Counterattack is nice, no doubt, but I still think our Termies are better. Mainly because halberds are insane, especially after 'Furious Charge' has been nerfed.

 

Oh it's the cost.  33 points for a Storm Bolter and Power Axe.  WooT

 

 

On what basis?

 

Shooting > Assault in 6th.

 

GKT had Assault bonuses given to them, Strikes are still the better shooting unit.

 

 

I seem to recall you're usually quite wary of this kinda logic man.

 

;) Hehehehe