Centurions

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Oh it's the cost.  33 points for a Storm Bolter and Power Axe.  WooT

 

>not taking powerfists

If they're in TDA plate, there is literally no reason to not go powerfist. Maybe wolfywolf claws for the lulz, but fists kill everything all day. Also, Wolf players don't buy storm bolters on their WG, its a waste of points. 

 

Shooting > Assault in 6th.

 

GKT had Assault bonuses given to them, Strikes are still the better shooting unit.

Not always. Remember, all those irritating shooty list dominating the meta fold in melee instantly. I don't mean like how Marines can sorta tie us down and drag out the fights (due to similar statlines and wargear/unit matchups). Melee still matters, especially if you're up against DogStar or MC spam. It's also how we get rid of Tyranids and IG, as we'll never win a shooty war with either (Tervigons literally don't care about storm bolter, and they can tank psycannon pretty well, but they die to one nemesis weapon wound in melee). 

 

Ravens I feel are our power unit in 6th. They fly over enemy screening units, they counter ScreamerStar with the psy-strike missiles (huehuehue, thank you based Ward, your prediction of the future meta is perfect as always), and they deliver our fragile low model count army safely into melee the turn you disembark (meaning all you eat is Overwatch). Whether your cargo is Purifiers (now you can combat squad and take both in the same transport, multi-charge haha), Terminators or melee warband, its bad news for shooty lists. 

 

Strikes shoot well, but they're still a 200pt+ unit that dies way too easily in 6th. Derpstriking them is the way to get value, but you risk Interceptor Riptide/Broadside. (shrug) teleport homers on the Ravens will probably work, or on the Libby you bring for 'Shrouding' in larger games. 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

>not taking powerfists

If they're in TDA plate, there is literally no reason to not go
powerfist. Maybe wolfywolf claws for the lulz, but fists kill everything
all day. Also, Wolf players don't buy storm bolters on their WG, its a
waste of points.

 

WGT come with Power Weapons and Storm Bolters as standard.

 

Why pay more for a Fist when you can get an AP2 Axe for free?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

S8. Wounding on 2's against everything relevant is pretty handy. In my experience, WGT drop the storm bolters for storm shields. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Too expensive.

 

The Wife's managed to hide my 'dexes. /grump

 

Run them like our GKT, SB+PW, but 7 points cheaper.

[InstantKarma]

 

Riptides can't murder them as easily, and they're Heldrake immune. 

. 

 

Riptide overhcarges Ion Accelerator (normal overheat) and than nova charges twin-linked plasma rifles.  Nuff said.  Die just as easy or even more easily since they got no ++.

 

I'm still not sure what all the fear is over 24' grav weps that will never get into range to be used in the first place.

[Valerian]

As a Space Wolves player primarily, I'd say that GL has the right of it for most of us who actually run Wolf Guard Terminators. The default 33 point version with Storm Bolter and Power Weapon (almost always a Power Axe, now, in 6e) is a terrific bargain, and there isn't much justification to upgrade most of your models from that standard. One or two can be given a Fist/Hammer/Chainfist to deal with Vehicles or Monstrous Creatures, but you certainly don't need to spend the extra 10-15 points per model to upgrade to the double-Strength weapons for all of your guys, when 1 or 2 will do, and the default Power Axe is good enough for most other situations (i.e. anti-infantry work). Likewise, most folks only put 1 or 2 Storm Shields in a unit, as they're too expensive at +15 points (IIRC) to spam throughout the unit. 1 or 2 Shields is usually good enough to allow you to "tank" properly against AP2 weapons that come at you.

 

Regardless, I think the price point for Grey Knights Terminators is fine (close enough to "right" that an adjustment isn't really necessary). I do, however, think that GKT should get their own unique psychic power; they're the only GK squad that doesn't get anything but the default Hammerhand. Strikes and Interceptors get HH and Warp Quake; Purgators get HH and Astral Aim; Purifiers HH and Cleansing Flame; Paladins HH and Holocaust; GKT should get something useful as a secondary power to HH, too.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Riptide overhcarges Ion Accelerator (normal overheat) and than nova charges twin-linked plasma rifles.  Nuff said.  Die just as easy or even more easily since they got no ++.

Lol wut. Firstly, he never overcharges his ion accelerator, isn't worth it. The only two modes you'll ever see used are 'double tap my secondary fusion blaster' or '3++ because I'm going to be shot with AP2 next enemy turn'. 

What is dying to Riptides because it has no invul?

 

 

I'm still not sure what all the fear is over 24' grav weps that will never get into range to be used in the first place.

 

It's not that. It's the fact that for 560 points you can bring a 12-wound T5 2+ save unit in one Heavy Slot, that can split fire and pumps out 6 x twin lascannon and 12 krak or frag missiles a turn. The grav cannon build is for newbs. 

 

As a Space Wolves player primarily, I'd say that GL has the right of it for most of us who actually run Wolf Guard Terminators. The default 33 point version with Storm Bolter and Power Weapon (almost always a Power Axe, now, in 6e) is a terrific bargain, and there isn't much justification to upgrade most of your models from that standard. One or two can be given a Fist/Hammer/Chainfist to deal with Vehicles or Monstrous Creatures, but you certainly don't need to spend the extra 10-15 points per model to upgrade to the double-Strength weapons for all of your guys, when 1 or 2 will do, and the default Power Axe is good enough for most other situations (i.e. anti-infantry work). Likewise, most folks only put 1 or 2 Storm Shields in a unit, as they're too expensive at +15 points (IIRC) to spam throughout the unit. 1 or 2 Shields is usually good enough to allow you to "tank" properly against AP2 weapons that come at you.

S5 is okay. I just am finding more and more that hammers (or in your case powerfist) are so much more reliable and flexible. You're still Unwieldly and thus leaving yourself open to enemy slaps until it's your turn to slap back at I1, might as well hit like a truck against everything when you do. 

 

Regardless, I think the price point for Grey Knights Terminators is fine (close enough to "right" that an adjustment isn't really necessary). I do, however, think that GKT should get their own unique psychic power; they're the only GK squad that doesn't get anything but the default Hammerhand. Strikes and Interceptors get HH and Warp Quake; Purgators get HH and Astral Aim; Purifiers HH and Cleansing Flame; Paladins HH and Holocaust; GKT should get something useful as a secondary power to HH, too. 

No, that's dumb. There is a very good reason why GKT don't get a specialist squad power. It's because they're the newest members of the Brotherhood, and they haven't been trained by a Justicar of one of the specialist squads, in their  power of choice (or in the case of the Paladins, haven't endured what they have and thus been taught how to summon the Holocaust). I thought it was a clever representation of the background, and a practical choice given GKT's are the only other unit besides Paladins that can get the overpowered Bro Banner. The Bro Banner is basically their 'special ability', in that Paladins generally don't want it (as you only field 10 Paladins with Draigo), but 10 man GKT squads are much more common. +1A is good enough, the fact it gives auto-activate to force weapons makes it absurd for its price. 

[Valerian]

RD, where in the codex does it say that the Terminators are the new guys, and the other squad-types are the more experienced?

 

In fact, base Terminators have the exact same profile as their Juaticar, whereas base Strikes, for example do not (and have less Leadership and attacks as a base Terminator).

 

Regardless, I think the call for a unique Terminator squad power is completely justified, despite having the Brotherhood Banner, which is a terrific piece of gear, but definitely ain't the same thing.

[Gentlemanloser]

It was the old leaked dex fluff.  That had strikes deploying first before the rest of the army to secure breachheads, and had every GK come into the Chapter in a suit of TDA.

 

The 'canon' Dex doesn't have that fluff anymore, and you're right Val.  GKT have better stat lines that our PA troops, which necessarily implies they are better, more experienced troops.

 

Which flies in the face of the fluff they originally wanted (from the leaked dex).

 

But then, if Strikes had the same statline as GKT (2A and Ld9), the comparison between the two would be *a lot* worse...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

RD, where in the codex does it say that the Terminators are the new guys, and the other squad-types are the more experienced?

In their unit entry, and in the background section when it talks about the process of creating a Grey Knight from scratch. I don't have my codex with me at the moment, so I can't give you page numbers, but it is mentioned. 

 

In fact, base Terminators have the exact same profile as their Juaticar, whereas base Strikes, for example do not (and have less Leadership and attacks as a base Terminator).

Slight disconnect between background and rules. I've always been mystified why Strikes only have 1A. I guess because Ward got told 'make a Knight version of the Tactical squad', hence the mostly situational squad power and the focus on shooty over melee. Same reason why Interceptors suck as much as Assault Marines (shrug). Strikes are not the nubs, they're a specialist squad formation used in circumstances where TDA plate isn't needed (ie for capping objectives and holding ground, which Terminators are wasted on). 

 

As a sort of post-justification, I'd say that Terminator squads focus their energies and training on being better in melee, hence the lack of a squad power. The real reason is of course that Terminators have always had 2A, so it would be bizarre if they only had 1A. 

 

 

Regardless, I think the call for a unique Terminator squad power is completely justified, despite having the Brotherhood Banner, which is a terrific piece of gear, but definitely ain't the same thing. 

 

Eh, they could always give them one. I'm just saying, its not really necessary (I've never missed not having the Holocaust, barely cast it when I used the 3rd edition codex either), and there is a solid background reason why they don't have a squad power. They've only just freshly passed the trials and it could be their first time in real combat as a full battle-brother. Remembering how to 'Hammerhand', force weapon, resist enemy psykers and rip apart Daemons with their secret knowledge is already taxing their ability and strength. 

[Valerian]

When you get to your codex please take a look in it and see if you can find the passage for me. I reviewed mine before the last post and neither the Terminator entry or the Strike/Interceptor entry says anything about the Terminators being new guys or anything about the others being more experienced specialists; maybe that description is elsewhere?

[Gentlemanloser]

 

In short, fromt he moment a Grey Knight initiate's training is complete, and he is presented with the suit of Terminator Armour that shall be his constant companion for the remainder of his life

 

 

In most Chapters, duty in a Devastator Squad is seen as an excellent opportunity for a new recruit to experience the sights and sounds of a battlefield.  Not so in the Grey Knights. <snip> therefore the members of a Purgation Squad must, if anything, have displayed an ability and resolve beyond that of thier peers.

 

From the leaked playtest dex.

 

The original direction of the GK chapter, before it was, amended, for final release.

 

Even in the playtest version, the statlines didn't match the fluff.

[Grand Master Caloth]

The point is, that isn't the fluff as now. Actually, the Deathwatch book on GKs says they are given both. I rather like the fluff in that book, tho it is put out by Fantasy Flight Games

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

When you get to your codex please take a look in it and see if you can find the passage for me. I reviewed mine before the last post and neither the Terminator entry or the Strike/Interceptor entry says anything about the Terminators being new guys or anything about the others being more experienced specialists; maybe that description is elsewhere? 

In the Terminator entry, it spends an entire paragraph describing how recruits are quickly tested and turned into full-fledged Grey Knights. I think GL has the right of it, they cut some out before the final release, which makes the addition of the 'forging a Knight' paragraph odd now. It is a fact though that every Knight has access to Terminator plate, except obviously the Purifier order. That would suggest to me that the first formation they ever fight in is a Terminator squad. It makes sense too, as they'll never be as well-protected in the powered armour Aegis variants worn by the specialist squads, and they lack a unique squad power (remember, they have to suppress and learn anew when they transfer between squads). What better way to put their newfound skills and strength to the test, than as the most basic fighting unit the Chapter deploys? Strike squads require them to learn how to warp quake, Interceptors require learning how to shunt through the warp, and Purgators require learning how to hax physics so your shots don't miss. Terminator squad assignment also means they're getting use of all their skills, not just their ranged prowess. 

 

I'm sure not all recruits are forced to start as a Terminator squad (Chapter losses in battle would require them to put recruits under Justicars who need replacements), but they all still retain TDA plate as an option, and can be ordered to put aside their specialist gear if the situation demands. 

 

 

On the subject of rules versus background, I've always felt GW never does a good job with Marine Troops. Why Tac Marines only have 1A and yet are considered Chapter veteran squads in all but name is beyond me. Devastators only having 1A makes sense, they're newbies, and Assault Marines have two CCW for that reason. Tactical Marines should be like Grey Hunters, packing a combat blade and bolt pistol as backup so they can do the whole 'switch between roles' stuff their background talks about. Scouts are also kinda janky now that they are WS3/BS3. 

 

If we were matching background with rules, I'd give Strikes 2A base or have swords give a 5++ in melee if you don't have an existing invul save. 

[Gentlemanloser]

And Purgation GK should be BS5 by their fluff.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Nah, re-rolls or give them Ignore Cover. 'Astral Aim' is the dumbest thing in current meta, it gives a better cover save than 90% of the time. BS5 is for characters or absurd stuff like 30k era units. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Shooting at BS5 is 83.3% chance to hit.

 

Shooting at BS4 with a reroll is 88.9%.

 

If you want to suggest the better version, I could live with that! ;)

 

(Sure, it removes the potency of Divination Inquisitors...)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Shooting at BS5 is 83.3% chance to hit.

Shooting at BS4 with a reroll is 88.9%.

If you want to suggest the better version, I could live with that!

(Sure, it removes the potency of Divination Inquisitors...)

Yeah...might not put re-rolls on then, kinda broken. But then you give Purgators 'Ignore Cover', its useless with incinerators...

Mmmkay, try again;

'Astral Aim': Models in a unit affected by this power may target units without requiring Line of Sight, and gain the 'Ignore Cover' special rule. The target must still be within range.

Now, if we have lascannons or missile launchers (or plasma cannons), that kinda rule would be kinda insane. As is though, our weapons are mostly anti-infantry with a little anti-tank from Rending on psycannons, so I feel it works. It would also mean Purgators are substantially better than Purifiers in the fire support role, which is currently the reason why you don't see Purgators much.

[Lysere]

Would like to point out (sorry I'm terrible at quoting only a single small section) but in regards to the riptide, no you wouldn't nova charge the Ion Accelerator, you'd just overcharge it which is something all Ion weapons can do, and now you've got a double tapping fusion or a 3++ with a S8 large blast that eats paladins.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Would like to point out (sorry I'm terrible at quoting only a single small section) but in regards to the riptide, no you wouldn't nova charge the Ion Accelerator, you'd just overcharge it which is something all Ion weapons can do, and now you've got a double tapping fusion or a 3++ with a S8 large blast that eats paladins.

I pointed this out in my post that never went through, but yeah you're right. People are often getting that one wrong. Nova charges on Riptides are as you say, generally used for the 3+ invul (because screw game balance) or on those rare occasions it's actually firing its secondary weapon (most things die before getting in range of the fusion blaster).