Let's discuss how to counter the most over-powered units.

[Ishagu]

I saw a similar topic on BoLS and think it's a great idea.

We can list some cheesy units and discuss the best ways for Marines to take them down without committing huge ammounts of resources to gun them down...

 

What is the best way we can deal with:

 

Heldrakes

Necron Croissants

Wraith Knights and Riptides

 

And so on...

[Captain Idaho]

I'm thinking fliers can be shot down with Stalkers in the new Codex.

 

Wraith Knights and Riptides... Not sure yet the best policy. They soak AP2 hits, so maybe Grav weapons, on Centruions perhaps, is the way to go in a solid, balanced list? Problem is they are quite short ranged and Riptides in particular hang at the back.

[jocke01]

If the rumoured statline of grav cannons are true then a 3 man centurion squad will put between 5-7 unsaved wounds on a riptide with it's 5++ save. around 5,5 average without any re-rolls and about 7,5 with re-roll and divination. Only problem is the 24 range but that can maybe be solved if they can be given deep strike in any way or perhaps gate of infinity.

[Mr.selfdestruct]

  I maintain that the best thing against MC's is still/always will be snipers.  Range is good, BS is 50/50, as is wounding...saturation has always worked best for me over trying to get them to fail that one invulnerable save.

  Helldrakes/Croissants...gah.  Best I can think of personally is to try and deny them good targets.  If a unit is a MEQ killer then present as few juicy targets as possible, regardless of this edition being "anti-tank" at worst a metal box will give you one 35pt ablative cover.  With my orks, the Helldrake was actually the biggest reason I took Nob bikers over regular bikers, so that torching them wouldn't be the unit slaying attack that it could have been.  Also a Mortis Conteptor ain't bad as long as you put its back to a wall. 

  Against the flying robot baked goods I can't really say as I haven't dealt with them often enough..

[Dam13n]

Riptides:  Initiative Tests (JotWW and Warp Rift - accessible via allies), Plasma/Melta/Lascannons (6+ Sternguard with Combi-plasmas in a Drop Pod should own a Riptide)

Wraithknights:  Sniper Rifles, Sternguard using Hellfire rounds, Melta/Lascannons/Krak Missiles

Necron Scythes:  Quad-gun, Flakk Missiles, Fugly-talon/Fugly-raven/Allied Vendetta, New AA Tank/Allied Hydras or Allied Sabre Platforms

Vendetta:  Same as above

Heldrake:  Same as above, also Allied Grey Knights with Psycannons are surprisingly effective, if they live long enough

 

Allied Tau are another option for anti-flyer duty, with their easy access to skyfire weapons.  (One guy I know runs 3 Crisis suits with a Missile Pod each and Interceptor and Skyfire support systems - means 6 S7 shots as an intercept - not too shabby.  A Commander and Bodyguard would work better (Commander with 2 Pods, Bodyguards with 1 Pod each, all with Interceptor and Skyfire and the Commander with a Puretide Chip for Tank-hunters))

 

Grav Weapons may be the new monster-killer weapons, but as yet the rules of them are just rumour, nothing more - so I haven't included them above as there's no point relying on a weapon we don't yet know anything concrete about.

 

Laterz...

[Axagoras]

best answer to all enemy fliers is a storm raven with a storm talon escort, that combo has a good chance of knocking out 3 fliers a turn. And in my meta a casual list has only 4 fliers in it so I need all the AA i can get. For wraith knights and riptides sternguard will do, so will grav cannons (they may not be out yet but we all know the stats). Or a mortis contemptor. Always use mortis contemptors.

[nurglez]

The main issue isn't how to counter them, but more specificially, how to build an all comers list that can counter them.

 

Every unit has a counter, but if that counter is only useful vs that one thing, it fails. Paying for flakk missiles then not fighting an enemy flyer for example, which is probably why we don't see them in lists as often as an aegis with quadgun.

[Axagoras]

fliers are great for that, they can shoot down planes and are great for aerial support. the storm raven has assault cannons, multi meltas, at missiles and bolter arrays. great way to deal with most threats.

[Ishagu]

Can someone confirm for me whether disembarking counts as movement?

 

3 centurians with Grav Cannons drop podding next to a Riptide = 15 ap2 shots that wound on a 2+ for example.

 

They could wipe any monstrous creature on turn 1...

[Axagoras]

why would centurions care about movement? there slow and purposeful.

[Lysere]

They are slow and purposeful according to rumors, so even if they moved it wouldn't matter.

[Ishagu]

The graviton guns are salvo weapons so range and rate of fire is affected by movement...

[Axagoras]

not for relentless and SnP, they ignore it. and besides getting out of a dreadnought counts as disembarking so yes that is moving.

[Ishagu]

not for relentless and SnP, they ignore it. and besides getting out of a dreadnought counts as disembarking so yes that is moving.

Right you are sir, just checked the rules myself. Well, this leaves no doubt in my mind as to how to equip them. Las cannon option sounds attractive but that weapon can be found on other units and vehicles...

[Gentlemanloser]

Centurions seem to only be able to take a LR as a dedicated Transport.

 

If they could Take a Drop Pod, well, who wouldn't use 3 in a Drop Pod with Grav Cannons for a first turn nuke on anything.

 

15 x S(variable), AP2 shots that reroll failed wounds is going to hurt everything...

[Ishagu]

They are listed as very bulky so they take 3 slots each. Drop pods can fit Dreads so I don't see why we won't be able to put 3 centurians in one...

[Gentlemanloser]

Balance reasons?

[Zombie P]

Simply not having a drop pod in their list of dedicated transports would ruin that day ;)

 

And I could understand why they wouldn't. Although they would sell a lot of them if you could pod them in...

 

ZP

[Ishagu]

Simply not having a drop pod in their list of dedicated transports would ruin that day ;)

 

And I could understand why they wouldn't. Although they would sell a lot of them if you could pod them in...

 

ZP

I see them as powerful MC killers. If we can't deliver them their use is limited.

 

For me it's simple - no drop pod, no purchaise...

[Jolemai]

Those of you thinking of using Drop Pods against units with Interceptor, remember that Interceptor shots are fired at the end of your movement phase meaning that there's a chance your squad will be wiped before it gets the chance to do anything...

[Gentlemanloser]

I see them as powerful MC killers. If we can't deliver them their use is limited.

 

For me it's simple - no drop pod, no purchaise...         

 

Start them at the edge of your DZ, walk them up to 6" forward, shoot 24" guns?

 

Edit: Purhcase LR as a dedicated Transport, use Ravenguard to give the LR Scout?

[Muctar]

From within our codex only, taking into account that we're likely to be getting some new units very soon, we have:

 

Helldrakes: Quad gun. You need to intercept them before they wipe a complete marine squad from your roster. If you're willing to take casualties then the new Stalker should be up to the job.

 

Night/Doom Scythes: Any of our fliers with proper equipment, flakk devasators, stalker, and quad gun.

 

Riptide: Hammernators (in a land raider of your choice), Sternguard (w/combi-meltas, if the shield isn't overcharged), predator anihilator, sniper scouts, lascannon devastators, grav cannon centurions (probably in a LR to get close enough)

 

Wraithknight/lords: Same as above but include missile devs, LS Typhoons, or anything with missiles in general

 

The unfortunate part of this discussion is trying to conceive of a way to fit something for every one of these enemy units into a list.

[Ishagu]

In my experience a Quad Gun is not sufficient to take down even a single Drake. Between it's Inv save, it will not die and needing a 5 to even glance it, it took my Quad Gun 3 whole turns to shoot one down after my Raven exploded due to an un-lucky pen.

By that point two full tac squads were dead and a Predator had been destroyed by Vector Strikes.

 

A plasma command squad is able to kill a Riptide in a single turn of shooting if they are delivered within 12"

[minigun762]

I'm normally a big fan of the all comers list but with such a wide variety of threats, I'm starting to reconsider.

It may be better to build a list that handles 80-90% of what you're likely to see but realizes you may have bad match ups. In those games, you play to the objectives as much as possible.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'm normally a big fan of the all comers list but with such a wide variety of threats, I'm starting to reconsider.

It may be better to build a list that handles 80-90% of what you're likely to see but realizes you may have bad match ups. In those games, you play to the objectives as much as possible.

 

This, a thousand times.  If you try to build an army that can handle 100% of the enemy threats you're likely to face, you'll end up with an army that can't handle anything.  Build in mitigation measures, sure, but don't try to have foolproof plan against everything.  For instance, I've been running two Storm Talons to handle my anti-flyer.  They do have a tendency to die easily, so I'm swapping one for an ADL and quad gun and see how that goes.  Two Skyfire options isn't going to give me the best defense against flyer-spam; having the quad and both Talons would go a long way towards redressing that balance.  However, that chews too far into my points at 1850 -- our standard build around here -- so I'm making compromises.