Let's discuss how to counter the most over-powered units.

[Axagoras]

I'm normally a big fan of the all comers list but with such a wide variety of threats, I'm starting to reconsider.

It may be better to build a list that handles 80-90% of what you're likely to see but realizes you may have bad match ups. In those games, you play to the objectives as much as possible.

And you just hit the nail on the head, you cant build a list to counter internet boogeyman lists that you will never fight in your meta (outside a tournament but even then you know what peoples lists usually are). Sure theres the 3 helldrake list, the 6+ necron flier list, draigo wing, 9 bassys, ect. and in my meta I have only seen 1 run just a few times. You need to build to counter your meta, mine is lots of tau, eldar and MEQ (i consider necrons MEQ) with a fair amount of fliers. So i take a good amount of AA and bring lots of light at weapons and marine killers to deal with what i have. Vs terminator spam id have some trouble and same with green tide or nid endless swarms but i still have way to handle them because im not taking 3-5 AA units or lots of suicide sternguardto deal with lists i will never have to play. Play to you meta is the best bet for list building.

[d@n]

Gentlemanloser, on 20 Aug 2013 - 10:27, said:

Centurions seem to only be able to take a LR as a dedicated Transport.

 

If they could Take a Drop Pod, well, who wouldn't use 3 in a Drop Pod with Grav Cannons for a first turn nuke on anything.

 

15 x S(variable), AP2 shots that reroll failed wounds is going to hurt everything...

i think drop pod centurions would be a little broke. With the Iron hand trait, your talking about not only a 2+ save and t5 but feel no pain and a sargeants that can regenerate with iwnd.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Shhhh!  Stop telling everyone about my master plan!

[minigun762]

I think the three hardest things to counter are:

Mass flyers

Mass AV14*

True horde armies

 

*T8 MCs would be similar.

 

These three armies are worst case scenarios because they negate huge portions of our firepower and the type of firepower required for each is mutually exclusive.

Blasts and templates are great for horde but do nothing against flyers, mid S multi shot weapons can counter flyers but bounce off AV14. Melta weapons kill heavy armor but are short ranged overkill against mass bodies.

Unless you have a supremely flexible weapon, you can't cover it all.

[Axagoras]

 

Gentlemanloser, on 20 Aug 2013 - 10:27, said:

Centurions seem to only be able to take a LR as a dedicated Transport.

 

If they could Take a Drop Pod, well, who wouldn't use 3 in a Drop Pod with Grav Cannons for a first turn nuke on anything.

 

15 x S(variable), AP2 shots that reroll failed wounds is going to hurt everything...

i think drop pod centurions would be a little broke. With the Iron hand trait, your talking about not only a 2+ save and t5 but feel no pain and a sargeants that can regenerate with iwnd.

It would be nice, having a 6+ FNP, and hope that you dont die in 1 turn so you can use IWND. Or you could take ultra tactical doctrine for rerolling 1s.

 

And Minigun mariens can handle most of those pretty easily, double melta speeder will deal with any av 14, and a storm raven with MM can handle them as well, and can blow up 2 fliers a turn. for high toughness thats a pain, Im tempted to take DA allies for divination and some ravenwing black knights for the rad grenade and all that sweet sweet plasma. Or just take tons of speeders, 60 points for anti infantry and 80 for heavy at, or 90 (75 in newer books) for a mixed role siege speeder.

[Gentlemanloser]

Or you could take ultra tactical doctrine for rerolling 1s.

 

Not worth it.  Most of thier guns are Twin-linked anyway.

 

The better ones seem to be;

 

Stealth

FnP (and maybe IWND if they are 'characters')

Tank Hunters

 

Edit: Could always take Raven Guard Centurion, load them in a LR and give it Scout...  Disembark first turn and Pew Pew with 24" Grav Cannons.

 

Ouchtime

[nurglez]

I think the three hardest things to counter are:

Mass flyers

Mass AV14*

True horde armies

 

*T8 MCs would be similar.

 

These three armies are worst case scenarios because they negate huge portions of our firepower and the type of firepower required for each is mutually exclusive.

Blasts and templates are great for horde but do nothing against flyers, mid S multi shot weapons can counter flyers but bounce off AV14. Melta weapons kill heavy armor but are short ranged overkill against mass bodies.

Unless you have a supremely flexible weapon, you can't cover it all.

 

You don't have to destroy some of those though, tar pitting, bubble wrapping and physically blocking can work, depending on the mission and your luck of course D

 

Flyers are generally a big threat, due to being hard to hit and having extreme movement/threat range, armour 14 vehicles are rare, and most have weaker side/rear armour, Big scary MC's usually have fewer attacks, so can be tar pitted (and of course poisoned attacks are useful). Hordes can be bogged down, there are quite a few nice psychic powers that can help, but I myself lack many template weapons in my armies (2 squads of 10 cultists with a flamer).

 

I've had to do things which have surprised me, as I've just come up with them on the spot.

I played a 1500 point game vs 6 battlewagons (with deathrollers of course) and 2 dakka jets. Was damn scary seeing that much armour 14 in front of me (and only having 2 melta, a combi melta, 2 twin lascannons on my raider and my forgefiend to glance), yet I managed to almost table him by the 5th turn.

 

I still don't have an answer for riptides with marker light support, apart from killing the pathfinders as quickly as possibly, 2 of my local gaming group have started tau so I'm sure to get some practice in killing pathfinders...

[Axagoras]

I dont belive grab weps are twin linked, so a reroll is really nice

[minigun762]

Nurglez: I think we are saying the same thing.

It may not be feasible to bring a weapon counter to a particular unit but through list building, tactics and gambles, we may still be able to render that unit ineffective.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

I dont belive grab weps are twin linked, so a reroll is really nice

 

If you're going Grav Cannons, add in Tiggy, or an allied Runepriest for Divination.  Which can still fit in a Drop Pod with 3 Centurions.

 

Reroll all failed to-hit is better than just 1's and Grav Cannons reroll failed wounds by default.

[Captain Idaho]

Can Centurions get Drop Pods though? I don't think they can?

[Axagoras]

I thought the grav amp ignored cover, but enough of what they may or may not have, untill a pdf comes out early or we get the book on the 7th we wont know for sure. But what we do know is they spit 5 shots a model of grav at 24 inches, so they have a good threat range. I would take an iron hands chapter master on a bike to lead them. That will handle the lack of invul and they can handle any MEQ, TEQ, and MC

[d@n]

Until I have played A few games with or against centurions I don't want to speculate to much. but I see them driving upto stuff in a land raider, shooting something to death, whilst using the raider to block line of sight then getting back in the raider, getting an extra 6" of movement then repeating. Iron hands raiders with a techmarine and iwnd are going to be very hard to kill and so will raven guard with a cover save and they will most likely be getting some infiltrate or scout. Either in there supplement. Or shrieks having a arahman type warlord trait.

[Ishagu]

When the iron hands chapter traits were revealed a lot of people were unhappy... but looking at them now. You could make a truly scary heavy armor force...

[dswanick]

or an allied Runepriest for Divination.  Which can still fit in a Drop Pod with 3 Centurions.

Units/ICs can't embark in Allied Transports. No Rune Priest in an allied C:SM Drop Pod.

[Grey Mage]

Those of you thinking of using Drop Pods against units with Interceptor, remember that Interceptor shots are fired at the end of your movement phase meaning that there's a chance your squad will be wiped before it gets the chance to do anything...

But with 2 wounds each, a 2+ save, and T5 its unlikely that any interceptor weapon currently on the books is going to wipe out a trio of centurions.

 

As much as I dont like power armored suits for your power armored suits.... they are survivable.

[Gentlemanloser]

Units/ICs can't embark in Allied Transports. No Rune Priest in an allied C:SM Drop Pod.

Not even Battle Brothers?

LoL, shows my experience of them, seeing as my army doesn't get any.

In that case, it would have to be Tiggy in your Centurion DP/LRC.

Footslog a Runepriest with the Squads you deploy on board, behind your Aegis.

But with 2 wounds each, a 2+ save, and T5 its unlikely that any interceptor weapon currently on the books is going to wipe out a trio of centurions.

Only one I can think of is Coteaz with 3 PC Servitors (and 3 PG Accolytes).

[Axagoras]

Then you show up 13+ inches out and ignore him. unless they have warpquake up :( But my plan is to foot slog 4 of them, 3 grav 1 las missile for split fire, with my chapter master. And use an aegis i deploy 6-12 inches outside my deployment to give em cover as they move into midfield

[Schultzhoffen]

As has been said- if you 'pod in near a unit with Interceptor (say a Riptide or 3) your units will be destroyed before they fire. As much as I love drop pods, they're not always the answer. Sometimes the best answer is avoidance and play the mission. 

 

I generally (depending on mission) make my no1 priority the destruction of enemy troop choices - thereby eliminating his ability to score. Secondary targets will be anything that allows him to move faster than 6"/turn. Other than that, I focus on the mission. I'm quite willing to take a beating (casualty wise) in order to win on points - i.e I try to leave my ego at home.

 

However, this is all changeable, depending on scenario/opponent, etc

[Office temp]

As has been said- if you 'pod in near a unit with Interceptor (say a Riptide or 3) your units will be destroyed before they fire. As much as I love drop pods, they're not always the answer. Sometimes the best answer is avoidance and play the mission. 

 

I generally (depending on mission) make my no1 priority the destruction of enemy troop choices - thereby eliminating his ability to score. Secondary targets will be anything that allows him to move faster than 6"/turn. Other than that, I focus on the mission. I'm quite willing to take a beating (casualty wise) in order to win on points - i.e I try to leave my ego at home.

 

However, this is all changeable, depending on scenario/opponent, etc

A single riptide shouldn't kill off an entire squad in one turn

[Iron Father Ferrum]

That depends on how well you spread them out, brother.  Riptides can drop that big AP2 pie plate when firing on Interceptor.

[Grey Mage]

 

I think the three hardest things to counter are:

Mass flyers

Mass AV14*

True horde armies

 

*T8 MCs would be similar.

 

These three armies are worst case scenarios because they negate huge portions of our firepower and the type of firepower required for each is mutually exclusive.

Blasts and templates are great for horde but do nothing against flyers, mid S multi shot weapons can counter flyers but bounce off AV14. Melta weapons kill heavy armor but are short ranged overkill against mass bodies.

Unless you have a supremely flexible weapon, you can't cover it all.

 

You don't have to destroy some of those though, tar pitting, bubble wrapping and physically blocking can work, depending on the mission and your luck of course D

 

Flyers are generally a big threat, due to being hard to hit and having extreme movement/threat range, armour 14 vehicles are rare, and most have weaker side/rear armour, Big scary MC's usually have fewer attacks, so can be tar pitted (and of course poisoned attacks are useful). Hordes can be bogged down, there are quite a few nice psychic powers that can help, but I myself lack many template weapons in my armies (2 squads of 10 cultists with a flamer).

 

I've had to do things which have surprised me, as I've just come up with them on the spot.

I played a 1500 point game vs 6 battlewagons (with deathrollers of course) and 2 dakka jets. Was damn scary seeing that much armour 14 in front of me (and only having 2 melta, a combi melta, 2 twin lascannons on my raider and my forgefiend to glance), yet I managed to almost table him by the 5th turn.

 

I still don't have an answer for riptides with marker light support, apart from killing the pathfinders as quickly as possibly, 2 of my local gaming group have started tau so I'm sure to get some practice in killing pathfinders...

Whirlwinds are the emperors answer to pathfinders,

 

As to having whole squads wiped out on the drop- use cover, use the pod as cover, theres no reason that should be happening, ever- since he cant get 2 markerlight hits on your turn to remove the cover.

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

Getting back to the O.P. -- Riptides are vulnerable to breaking in HtH and being cut down from behind.  They have no save against it and a pretty sucky I score.  The example I saw was to disorderly assault the Riptides and a fire warrior team.  Put the HtH hits on the FW as much as possible and cause a break.  Pursue and destroy the Riptide.  Note, if there is an Ethereal, you'd have to probably kill it first (or wait until the Riptide separated if it moves).

 

The thing locally that has me trying to work out a counter is a list with 2 Riptides, an allied Wraithknight, some Broadsides with tons of missiles, 3 crisis suits, an Ethereal, 4 fire warrior teams, a Kroot squad, and a Pathfinder unit.  The Broadsides, Riptides, and Crisis suits have maximum drones and the commander has pretty much every upgrade it can.  The Riptides have Interceptor (skyfire being unnecessary b/c of the Broadsides).  This force is actually worse than the 3 drake army the same guy used to run.  This Tau army has a unified strategy for all missions - table the opponent.  And therein lies the problem with trying to work out counters - I don't just have to counter the riptides; I have to counter his entire force.

 

I hoping that the new C:SM goes a long way towards leveling this threat.  Rumor has the new 'Dex with excellent units to drop flyers AND to put the hurting on things like Riptides.  Even if I'm not fielding (or cannot field) these units, I'm hoping their availability in the most popular army in 40K will deter the flyer spam and Riptide/Wraithknight spam lists, forcing those players to take a less spammy force to be competitive.  But then I would prefer tournament victories to go to the army that maneuvered better, not the one who list built better.  Of course, this means that we will all be adding Centurians to our "How do I counter" lists in about a month as it plays havoc on our power armor and our TDA.

 

Finally, there are two ways to "counter" something.  You can try to find a nullifying unit (AKA a list build counter) or you can try to find a method (maneuver counter).  Of the two, the latter may be more useful.  For example, if your counter involves needing to deep strike, lots of armies can do that.  On the other hand, if your counter requires a Nephilim, then that's not too useful for most armies.

[d@n]

assault squads with a power fist sargeants are really useful, since the tau and eldar dex have came out. I think I have probably killed more wave serpents with my powerfist sarg's then all my shooting put together.