Crimson Devil Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 I think the biggest complaint I have is the low body count among the Primarchs. The Horus Heresy is this huge war with billions of combatants and only three die during and one directly after. It really breaks my suspension of disbelief. I think at least half should have died. Adding the deaths and appropriate moments could have punctuated the story some much better. Its not unreasonable to have lost an entire legion and Primarch(s) at the drop site massacre. Or have Magnus die at Prospero. It would have been much more tragic for him to have died still loyal to the Emperor. Imagine Tzeentch tormenting him with the knowledge of his sons damnation as Russ kills him. Angron should have died at the Palace. Horus finally realizing with Angron's death they could lose and forcing him into the risky face to face confrontation with the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278680-one-of-the-things-that-bother-me-about-the-heresy/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Why? The Primarchs are the most powerful beings in 30k, bar the Emperor himself. They're the best damage tankers, they have near-godlike powers, they are worth armies on their own. They're not just leaders. They're actual demigods. Demigods don't die left and right. When they die, it's by another demigod's hands (or by the hands of one brought up to something near their own status). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278680-one-of-the-things-that-bother-me-about-the-heresy/#findComment-3428871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Magnus did die at Prospero. Russ completely destroyed his physical form. It's just that Tzeencht saw more long term benefit/amusement in putting his soul on puppet strings for all eternity than in letting him know the peace of the grave. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278680-one-of-the-things-that-bother-me-about-the-heresy/#findComment-3428886 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Devil Posted August 20, 2013 Author Share Posted August 20, 2013 That's the pointlessness of the Heresy, its about them fighting each other and nothing really happening. If I wanted to read stories about unkillable Mary Sues then there are plenty of fan-fiction stories about Wolverine on the internet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278680-one-of-the-things-that-bother-me-about-the-heresy/#findComment-3428889 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Why? The Primarchs are the most powerful beings in 30k, bar the Emperor himself. They're the best damage tankers, they have near-godlike powers, they are worth armies on their own. They're not just leaders. They're actual demigods. Demigods don't die left and right. When they die, it's by another demigod's hands (or by the hands of one brought up to something near their own status). That and it has been pretty much well established lore for when the Primarchs die. While there are ripples in some changes, much of it can be put off as "personal voew of the eye witness" or "a historian filling in gaps with opinions rather than fact." But much of it is still unalterable lore and for the most part, an effort is being made to maintain it. Although it would be interesting to see if Angron could die since he is already ascended. EDIT: Hate to burst your bubble Crimson Devil, but its going to be a while until Sanguinius dies. Unless Alpharius or Omegon bite the bullet first. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278680-one-of-the-things-that-bother-me-about-the-heresy/#findComment-3428891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 If I remember right destroying a daemon just sends its essence back to the Warp for a thousand years. Anyone know the date on when Daemon Fulgrim and Guilliman went at it relative to the Siege of Terra? I wonder if there's a chance Khan, Dorn, or Constantin Valdor booted his scaly backside out of the Materium while the big show was going down. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278680-one-of-the-things-that-bother-me-about-the-heresy/#findComment-3428897 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Devil Posted August 20, 2013 Author Share Posted August 20, 2013 Magnus did die at Prospero. Russ completely destroyed his physical form. It's just that Tzeencht saw more long term benefit/amusement in putting his soul on puppet strings for all eternity than in letting him know the peace of the grave. But he stills exists and I don't see that as useful to the 40k overall story as his removal from it would have been. For example; Sanguinius' role as a martyr I think adds to the story. I think the same would hold true to for Magnus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278680-one-of-the-things-that-bother-me-about-the-heresy/#findComment-3428899 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 If I remember right destroying a daemon just sends its essence back to the Warp for a thousand years.that's actually getting to be iffy. For example, M'Kar. He was banished and imprisoned within the same thousand year cycle but was still able to manifest at least a portion of himself in the material universe. But then a Shard of Erebus is used to kill him. Apparently it was able to actually sever his connection to the warp, meaning that he would only survive as long as he had power to sustain his form. And it ran out fast. Anyone know the date on when Daemon Fulgrim and Guilliman went at it relative to the Siege of Terra? I wonder if there's a chance Khan, Dorn, or Constantin Valdor booted his scaly backside out of the Materium while the big show was going down. IIRC, it is sometime during the Scouring. Don't know speifically when though. EDIT: Maybe we can kill off Jaghatai Kan since he's one of those Primarchs who just fade away. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278680-one-of-the-things-that-bother-me-about-the-heresy/#findComment-3428909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminatorAM Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 You also have to keep in mind that the broadest strokes of the Horus heresy story (including who died) was established by GW way before the 30k universe was as big of a deal as it is now. I can see your point and I like the tragedy of Magnus dying just before his sons fall, but the original point of the HH was to inspire 40k. The writers at the time probably didn't think it would be revisited too much so thought it would be more suspenseful to leave all the unsolved cases of primarch's deaths so players could imagine them coming back for the end times (although this is pretty recent too right). Going with this also explains why there are 2 missing legions/primarchs that no one knows about. I'm sure they had some large part in the heresy or went extinct during it. In the Forge World take on the heresy, they'd be smart to capitalize on this missing story chunk. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278680-one-of-the-things-that-bother-me-about-the-heresy/#findComment-3428910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 But he stills exists and I don't see that as useful to the 40k overall story as his removal from it would have been. For example; Sanguinius' role as a martyr I think adds to the story. I think the same would hold true to for Magnus. He could have been a martyr...but when he felt his spine break over Russ's knee and heard the death cries of his sons, he once more reached out to the Powers of the Warp, powers he thought he'd mastered, and so damned himself to be a pawn moved about by a mocking god for all eternity. If you can't see the tragedy and drama in that situation, well.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278680-one-of-the-things-that-bother-me-about-the-heresy/#findComment-3428912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Acid Dog Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Magnus did die at Prospero. Russ completely destroyed his physical form. It's just that Tzeencht saw more long term benefit/amusement in putting his soul on puppet strings for all eternity than in letting him know the peace of the grave. But he stills exists and I don't see that as useful to the 40k overall story as his removal from it would have been. For example; Sanguinius' role as a martyr I think adds to the story. I think the same would hold true to for Magnus. The Magnus that is is not the Magnus that was. Death isn't the only "end" for a character. A Magnus lost to madness and the whims of an unpredictable "god" might as well be a dead. And he's far more fun to read about than he would be if he was dead. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278680-one-of-the-things-that-bother-me-about-the-heresy/#findComment-3428913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 TerminatorAM, the Missing Primarchs and their Legions are dealt with before the Heresy ever begins and, thankfully, are considered untouchable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278680-one-of-the-things-that-bother-me-about-the-heresy/#findComment-3428918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 You also have to keep in mind that the broadest strokes of the Horus heresy story (including who died) was established by GW way before the 30k universe was as big of a deal as it is now. I can see your point and I like the tragedy of Magnus dying just before his sons fall, but the original point of the HH was to inspire 40k. The writers at the time probably didn't think it would be revisited too much so thought it would be more suspenseful to leave all the unsolved cases of primarch's deaths so players could imagine them coming back for the end times (although this is pretty recent too right). Actually that is a concept as old as "Russ vanished into the warp chasing Magnus", "The Khan fell into a warp portal", "Corax took a shuttle into the Nevernever" and "Vulkan just disappeared while leaving behind several artifacts and when they are all found, he will return." Heck, even the Iron Hands IA article has a resurrection clause for Ferrus Manus and Guilliman is just waiting for a cure. The "End Times Prophecies" were written in with all of the Primarchs backgrounds with only a few exceptions. Going with this also explains why there are 2 missing legions/primarchs that no one knows about. I'm sure they had some large part in the heresy or went extinct during it. In the Forge World take on the heresy, they'd be smart to capitalize on this missing story chunk. Since BL has pretty much hounded it in that the Missing Legions went missing well before the Heresy, it is doubtful. Especially since it is standard practice to leave that empty chunk, an empty chunk. The Missing Legions are like Morn talking. You will hear about, but you will never see it. The Missing Legions will forever be missing the same that all 1,000 Chapters will never be named. It leaves room for the fans to have their own imaginations and to do whatever they want with them. Like when Wobbly Mobbly made them Hello Pony fans and Borus flushed them out the airlock. Besides, their passing has left theories from "they'll be back" to "the Ultramarines kidnapped them" to "the Wolves did it" in their wake. The Missing Legions is a story arc that will never be realized and honestly, the day it is is the day I leave the Warhammer universe because that is the day GW decides to kill the imagination of their fanbase. Or at least finish the job since they're doing a good job of strangling said imagination at the moment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278680-one-of-the-things-that-bother-me-about-the-heresy/#findComment-3428921 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 I agree kol, but really someone is saying this in a thread that there isn't enough death. The primarchs ascending to daemonhood is a perfect way to remove them but still have stories, angron was banished twice, mortarion is occasionally active perturabo likes to actively defy the imperium lorgar is playing a massive game of chess with his adopted fathers, Magnus is a puppett fulgrim is in his mirror world having a planet wide orgy, alpaharius Oregon are playing one hell of a game of hide and seek and horus remains are beyond bye bye and kurze went suicidal. What more can you want. Sang was broken by Horus ferrus was killed by his closest brother dorn took on a black crusade Russ abandoned his sons vulkan god only knows jaghati was most likely kidnapped and is held in commorgrath guilliman had his throat slit by fulgrim the lion is all healed up ready to come back and corax probably offed himself Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278680-one-of-the-things-that-bother-me-about-the-heresy/#findComment-3428930 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Yeah, I did prefer it when the Lion was one of those "Everyone saw him get stabbed by Luther but no one knows what happened" rather than the new "His name is Sleeping Beauty and he's waiting for Prince Charming to kiss him awake." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278680-one-of-the-things-that-bother-me-about-the-heresy/#findComment-3428934 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Dammit Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 A lot of the Primarchs didn't even meet during the HH, and when they did a lot of them did die, The ones associated with chaos where protected by death for there soul was property of the chaos gods the moment they abandoned the emperor. Russ, The Leon, Guilliman, Vulcan and Corax weren't even on Terra and where never in a massive battles needed to kill of a primarch. Dorn was in a commandpost leading the full battle and the Khan is a hit and run so he made sure he never got in a situation he would get bogged down, like fighting one of his brothers. I dont see how more dieing would make a difference, the loyalists where on the back foot as most Primarchs where out of the game, just like Horus planned, and maybe he didnt want them dead, hoping they would turn if he killed there father Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278680-one-of-the-things-that-bother-me-about-the-heresy/#findComment-3428935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Devil Posted August 20, 2013 Author Share Posted August 20, 2013 EDIT: Maybe we can kill off Jaghatai Kan since he's one of those Primarchs who just fade away. If his death makes for a good story then I'm all for it. Just to be clear, I understand that the outline for the Horus Heresy was set down awhile back. My point is the story flaw as I see it was there from the beginning. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278680-one-of-the-things-that-bother-me-about-the-heresy/#findComment-3428945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Magnus did die at Prospero. Russ completely destroyed his physical form. Ascending to daemon princehood doesn't really count. OP is talking about really dying a la Ferrus Manus, Konrad Curze... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278680-one-of-the-things-that-bother-me-about-the-heresy/#findComment-3428969 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Yeah, I did prefer it when the Lion was one of those "Everyone saw him get stabbed by Luther but no one knows what happened" rather than the new "His name is Sleeping Beauty and he's waiting for Prince Charming to kiss him awake." Let me refer to that famous "official" text about the 40K being all about legends, rumours and propaganda. I don't know about you, but I do get a little bit more optimistic when I read that the Lion will be returning once Abaddon shows the white of his eyes. This being 40K, though, it's entirely possible that the whole thing is nothing but propaganda. And knowing that just sinks said optimism to the deep abyss. Also, "Sleeping Beauty" there is one of the most bellicose Primarchs ever, can you imagine him automatically taking over the High Lords (who wouldn't be too happy about it and might even boycott the Lion's rule, we're talking about Humanity here) and the Imperium's war machine while head-punching naysayers? I'm not even trolling here, how do you think the Lion would react to 'buts' in a situation so dire? As for Jaghatai Khan, he was responsible for single-handedly holding the defense of Terra while his father and brothers faced Horus. I'm not against him dying performing such a feat, but I see more gain than loss in allowing such an obscure Primarch and Legion get their moment of awesomeness and something to tell their grandchildren/initiates. In the end, I guess a well-told death is seldom a lost moment, but most Primarchs live to see the greatest victim of the conflict: Humanity's future. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278680-one-of-the-things-that-bother-me-about-the-heresy/#findComment-3429002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Entei Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 I think all the loyalist primarchs are dead/lost forever. This is not Narnia, and Aslan ain't coming back. Except for Alpharius. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278680-one-of-the-things-that-bother-me-about-the-heresy/#findComment-3429155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 If any Primarchs should "die" in the novels it should be the traitors one, loyalists already lose Ferrus and Sanguinius and the jury is still out on Vulkan. I'd love to see Dorn absolutely own a traitor primarch, maybe Mortarion in a "Battle of who can take the most pain". I mean of course all the traitors will survive, that's pretty much certain but I'd like to see loyalist Primarchs banish them or something. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278680-one-of-the-things-that-bother-me-about-the-heresy/#findComment-3429168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Yeah, I did prefer it when the Lion was one of those "Everyone saw him get stabbed by Luther but no one knows what happened" rather than the new "His name is Sleeping Beauty and he's waiting for Prince Charming to kiss him awake." Let me refer to that famous "official" text about the 40K being all about legends, rumours and propaganda. I don't know about you, but I do get a little bit more optimistic when I read that the Lion will be returning once Abaddon shows the white of his eyes. This being 40K, though, it's entirely possible that the whole thing is nothing but propaganda. And knowing that just sinks said optimism to the deep abyss. Also, "Sleeping Beauty" there is one of the most bellicose Primarchs ever, can you imagine him automatically taking over the High Lords (who wouldn't be too happy about it and might even boycott the Lion's rule, we're talking about Humanity here) and the Imperium's war machine while head-punching naysayers? I'm not even trolling here, how do you think the Lion would react to 'buts' in a situation so dire? As for Jaghatai Khan, he was responsible for single-handedly holding the defense of Terra while his father and brothers faced Horus. I'm not against him dying performing such a feat, but I see more gain than loss in allowing such an obscure Primarch and Legion get their moment of awesomeness and something to tell their grandchildren/initiates. In the end, I guess a well-told death is seldom a lost moment, but most Primarchs live to see the greatest victim of the conflict: Humanity's future. lol, I wasn't saying "Kill the Lion!", just that before it was kind of "Okay the Lion was stabbed." Did he die? Did he live? Could he and Luther be locked in an eternal struggle to the death in some remote part of the warp?" It was fun to think of the what ifs. Now it's Sleeping Beauty all over again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278680-one-of-the-things-that-bother-me-about-the-heresy/#findComment-3429200 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustermaker Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 I don't really want to see a Primarch die that had a specific death or fade away thing already done. I do see Alpharius or Omegon dying in the books before it is all said and done though. One thing I really look forward to reading about is Khârn's "death". I have a feeling Sigismund will have something to do with it while defending the gates! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278680-one-of-the-things-that-bother-me-about-the-heresy/#findComment-3429377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Sigismund will have a lot to do with 13 heretic bastards, if they keep with the current fluff =) We're bound to see some known faces and, yes, I'm very curious about their confrontation, as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278680-one-of-the-things-that-bother-me-about-the-heresy/#findComment-3429393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artemid Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 It makes a lot more sense to only have "20" Primarchs when they only lead a couple thousand dudes each. But that's not really something you can just dial up when you revisit it in detail. Also... 20 primary driving characters is a lot. Imagine adding 10 more Primarchs. It complicates things immensely for them all to still have individual character, stories, keep everything straight, give equal attention (they're already having problems with this), not be redundant, etc... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278680-one-of-the-things-that-bother-me-about-the-heresy/#findComment-3429405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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