b1soul Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Do you like how they've handled the Thunder Warriors? Before The Outcast Dead, I always thought the Astartes would be superior to the Thunder Warriors in every way. A Thunder Warrior would be somewhere between a mortal and an Astartes. Since the release of Outcast Dead, we know that man for man, Thunder Warriors are bigger, stronger, and faster than Astartes. At first I thought maybe Arik Taranis and Ghota were outliers of the Thunder Warriors, extremely powerful specimens (especially Arik of course) far above average Thunder Warriors. However, In Forge World's Betrayal (released after Outcast Dead), it's mentioned that in the aftermath of a certain battle, each Thunder Warrior corpse is surrounded by several World Eater corpses (apparently, the World Eaters encounter Thunder Warrior remnants in this engagement). The main flaw of the Thunder Warriors seems to be unpredictable mental and physical deterioration. They are easily lost to violent insanity, unpredictable rages, uncontrollable bloodlust. Consequently, they probably fight more like a horde of berserkers and less like a disciplined army. Perhaps the Emperor views the Butcher's Nails with such disapproval because it's almost like the Word Eaters have chosen to regress from Astartes back to the berserk, undisciplined Thunder Warriors. The Thunder Warriors also have short life-spans and I surmise that physical deterioration might strike them suddenly at inopportune times (for instance...during a campaign or even in the middle of battle). For several reasons, I don't like the idea that the Emperor purposefully engineers the Thunder Warriors to have short, unpredictable life-spans so that they would die out by the start of the Great Crusade. These reasons are... 1) The Thunder Warriors don't need to have short life-spans to be "phased out". The Emperor could simply cease their production. 2) Even with their short life-spans, the Thunder Warriors had to be culled anyway. If they were really designed to die off in a short time, they obviously didn't die off soon enough and had to be culled. I guess you could say the Emperor didn't any survivors to survive for too long after the cull but still... 3) If the Emperor designed the Thunder Warriors to have short life-spans, that means he could've designed Thunder Warriors with long life-spans. I think there should be a trade-off by necessity between the Thunder Warriors and the Astartes, otherwise the Astartes wouldn't really represent an improvement over the Thunder Warriors. Some other advantages Astartes should have over Thunder Warriors are higher combat/tactical intelligence, eidetic memory, less sustenance required to function effectively, greater adaptability to harsh non-Earth environments. With all that said, I've come to like the idea that Thunder Warriors don't just represent the intermediary link between mortal and Astartes. They essentially represent an interesting trade-off. It shows that the Emperor prefers intelligent, professional soldiers capable of serving as diplomats if necessary, rather than uncontrollable, bloodthirsty berserkers. Anyway, these are just some of my thoughts. What are yours? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278685-do-you-like-how-the-thunder-warriors-have-been-handled/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darog Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 They were no faster, but were stupid, not organized, undisciplined, so Astartes stronger than them Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278685-do-you-like-how-the-thunder-warriors-have-been-handled/#findComment-3428964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 20, 2013 Author Share Posted August 20, 2013 They were no faster, but were stupid, not organized, undisciplined, so Astartes stronger than them Er...no, I'd say TW were bigger, stronger, faster...oh, and more durable with respect to physical trauma Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278685-do-you-like-how-the-thunder-warriors-have-been-handled/#findComment-3428967 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonerhino Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 I took it more as the Thunder Warriors are Astartes +1. But that +1 caused them to burn themselves out. Thus the short life spans. If you were to genetically give the Thunder Warriors a longer life. You would effectivally make them Astartes. Where as the Thunder Warrior's +1 would have been the Primarchs. You have to remember that the Astartes were not planned as a replacement for the Thunder Warriors. They were all the Emperor could manage as a replacement after losing the Primarchs. The real replacements. He just toned down the Thunder Warriors to extend their lives. Then mixed in some Primarch DnA and bam. A new soldier to take the fight past Terra. I think GW has done fine with the Thunder Warriors. And I hope we see more of them during the siege. But fear that the genetic work being done will make the Grey Knights into "New" Thunder Warriors. Only time will tell. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278685-do-you-like-how-the-thunder-warriors-have-been-handled/#findComment-3429007 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 But they suffered from a terrible case of "Not suitable for peace". An even worst case than the Astartes, who already worried about that in every waking moment, judging from some of the earlier HH novels. They could've served as champions for the Astartes Legions, otherwise, or even become an elite shock-troop, but the Emperor likely saw how dangerous and unstable they'd be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278685-do-you-like-how-the-thunder-warriors-have-been-handled/#findComment-3429015 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Entei Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 I have to follow the ideas of Roboute Guilliman here, The Emperor didn't create the Astartes for warfare only, they were supposed to be integrated in society as politicians, consuls etc. after the war. The Astartes were supposed to be improved versions of humans, not just improved versions of warriors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278685-do-you-like-how-the-thunder-warriors-have-been-handled/#findComment-3429025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 It probably wouldn't work, though...not for every Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278685-do-you-like-how-the-thunder-warriors-have-been-handled/#findComment-3429027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 20, 2013 Author Share Posted August 20, 2013 I took it more as the Thunder Warriors are Astartes +1. But that +1 caused them to burn themselves out. Thus the short life spans. If you were to genetically give the Thunder Warriors a longer life. You would effectivally make them Astartes. Where as the Thunder Warrior's +1 would have been the Primarchs. You have to remember that the Astartes were not planned as a replacement for the Thunder Warriors. They were all the Emperor could manage as a replacement after losing the Primarchs. The real replacements. He just toned down the Thunder Warriors to extend their lives. Then mixed in some Primarch DnA and bam. A new soldier to take the fight past Terra. I think GW has done fine with the Thunder Warriors. And I hope we see more of them during the siege. But fear that the genetic work being done will make the Grey Knights into "New" Thunder Warriors. Only time will tell. I agree with the general "burn brighter but shorter" concept but I don't think the TW's only disadvantage is shorter life-span. I think it's a bit more complex than that. Mental instability, such as Insanity and uncontrollable aggression, would be just as big of a problem as physical failure, The key would be that the mental and physical deterioration is sudden and unpredictable, which seems to be the case. As a commander, you basically don't know when these guys are going to turn batsh*t crazy and/or shut down physically. One moment you have a semblance of a somewhat ordered fighting force mowing down enemies, the next moment, fighting breaks out out between your rearguard and your vanguard, while members of your left wing are either twitching on the ground or attacking friendly Imperial Army units. This is a bit of an exaggeration, but it illustrates the drawbacks of an army composed of mentally and physically unstable members. I'm sure the Emperor managed the Thunder Warriors to minimise their drawbacks. For instance, he could've avoided having them fight alongside mortal troops unless absolutely necessary. Furthermore, the likelihood of insanity/biological failure seems to have increased with age. The Emperor could've grouped the older TW more likely to shut down/go crazy into units similar to the Blood Angels Death Company...using them for suicide attacks and such. Even so...not only do the TW already have short life-spans compared to Astartes (and maybe even regular humans), there's a high probability of biological shutdown or mental breakdown after a period of time. A TW's effective life-span might thus only be a fraction of his life. If he goes crazy, depending on the degree of insanity, he might be of only limited use or of no use. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278685-do-you-like-how-the-thunder-warriors-have-been-handled/#findComment-3429052 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 I'd require a little more than "More dead War Hounds than Thunder Warriors" before saying the TW were better at fighting than the Astartes. For all we know, they ambushed the Hounds after letting them wear themselves out killing the entire population of mortal prisoners. Remember, Arik Taranis rebuked Ghota for mocking the Astartes in Outcast, calling them worthy successors who WERE NOT weaker than the Warriors, just different. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278685-do-you-like-how-the-thunder-warriors-have-been-handled/#findComment-3429311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy1391 Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 I love how tragic the tale of the thunder warriors is, I would love to see a pre crusade story about them and their fall from grace in the eyes of the emperor, that would be a good read I think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278685-do-you-like-how-the-thunder-warriors-have-been-handled/#findComment-3429321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 I have this eerie sense such a tale should come only after the Heresy series. Otherwise there will many (more) people cheering for Horus. Also, I think Taranis means they're worthy successors as an army. Also, being alive after an Emperor-mandate cull means never underestimating anything. To my memory it's pretty well established that the Thunder Warriors are physically more able than Astartes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278685-do-you-like-how-the-thunder-warriors-have-been-handled/#findComment-3429324 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 I'd require a little more than "More dead War Hounds than Thunder Warriors" before saying the TW were better at fighting than the Astartes. For all we know, they ambushed the Hounds after letting them wear themselves out killing the entire population of mortal prisoners. Remember, Arik Taranis rebuked Ghota for mocking the Astartes in Outcast, calling them worthy successors who WERE NOT weaker than the Warriors, just different. Agreed. Even the Astartes in The Outcast Dead had just crashed at high speeds. And since they lacked power armor, well I believe the Death Guard was said to be hurt pretty bad IIRC. Heck, IIRC there was a very short-lived attempt to say that World Eaters are the physically strongest of the Astartes because one of them went Predator on a Custodes and ripped out his spine through his chest. And I say short-lived because it was fanboy troll and even other World Eater fans jumped in to kill it. The repercussions of McNeill's writing certainly do make rather large ripples. Even if they don't go very far. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278685-do-you-like-how-the-thunder-warriors-have-been-handled/#findComment-3429343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 And in the same book, the Custodes killing World Eater died in a swordfight with a normal human. MMMAAACCCCCNNNNEEEEEIIIIILLLLL! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278685-do-you-like-how-the-thunder-warriors-have-been-handled/#findComment-3429350 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 He was on the verge of winning, I think, when a plasma cannon suddendly poped through his chest. You're still right, Wade. PS: Although, there is the Astartes-cutting Lucius Black in 'Legion'. Or are the Lucius (Luci? eheh) augmented? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278685-do-you-like-how-the-thunder-warriors-have-been-handled/#findComment-3429357 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Don't know. Considering how the other Imperial Guard soldiers in that same book seemed to be the epitome of eugenics science(planned breeding combined with subtle genetic enhancements) and the Lucius Blacks were supposed to have one of the best reputations as fighters around, it is very plausible. Speaking of that, earlier in the book, when he first tried to cut an Astartes, the Astartes he ran into was actually Alpharius right? And since the one at the end of the book said "I told you, you only get the one." wouldn't that actually make him a Primarch cutting Lucius Black? I'd almost have to say that he is augmented in some form or manner if that is the case. Either that or he was the Bruce Lee of the Great Crusade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278685-do-you-like-how-the-thunder-warriors-have-been-handled/#findComment-3429373 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Haven't read 'Legion' yet, I just know about that famous part =p The main conclusion seems to make the Astartes a regular one (though pretty good at what he does). Which doesn't take anything from the human's feat and is much less mind-boggling than a Primarch being cut by a human. Unless said Primarch wanted to in order not to reveal himself as more than an Astartes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278685-do-you-like-how-the-thunder-warriors-have-been-handled/#findComment-3429375 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 That or the human is very, very, very good. I mean honestly, since there are assassins that can keep up with Astartes and psuedo-Astartes who can keep up with Astartes, keeping up with an Astartes is still a biggie, but not exactly impossible. Meanwhile, no one has been shown to keep up with a Primarch without having some serious juice behind them. Like a sentient sword that was more than willing to tear apart its host. Or an Avatar. That's why Corswain was such a big deal. Not only did he manage to surprise a Primarch, but he also managed to shove a sword through his back Brad Pitt-Troy style. Personally, I'd like to think that since the Lucius Blacks were supposed to be the best of the best of the best(sir! With honors!) and that specific one was supposed to be the best Lucius Black around, that he could move fast enough to actually scratch a Primarch. Even though he would die shortly afterwards, it says something about that particular Lucius Black and in my opinion, actually does not degrade Alpharius. Not like Deliverance Lost saying that they were just "special Astartes" at any rate. But my theory does rely on Hinge on that Astartes outside the tent. And unfortunately I do not have my copy of Legion with me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278685-do-you-like-how-the-thunder-warriors-have-been-handled/#findComment-3429385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Entei Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 About the scene in Legion: Dinas Chayne, an extremely skilled commander of the Lucifer Blacks, who were probably some of the most powerful human warriors ever(it doesnt say if they were augmented or not, but the guy's intelligence is kind of like Movie-Sherlock Holmes times ten), managed to stab Alpharius once, while Alpharius was butchering 6 of his companions. Alpharius barely reacts. The Lucifer is then cut in two. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278685-do-you-like-how-the-thunder-warriors-have-been-handled/#findComment-3429399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 It's a little better if it happens during a fight against 6 and Alpharius kind of lets it happen. Otherwise it's just impossible. I'd prefer if the "sanctified awesomeness" of the Primarchs was left unsullied. Astartes, massed fire, daemons, artillery, eldar psykers, giant creatures, sure. Not humans... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278685-do-you-like-how-the-thunder-warriors-have-been-handled/#findComment-3429402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Actually book suggests that it wasn't Alpharius but Sheed Ranko. Sheed Ranko played Alpharius on several occasions and he is the guy who ecountered affordmentioned Lucius, when he treid to stab him, Ranko told him: "This is all you get.". "Alpharius" repeats the same quote before he kills Lucius. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278685-do-you-like-how-the-thunder-warriors-have-been-handled/#findComment-3429430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noctus Cornix Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 To be perfectly honest, and this is just me, I'm not a huge fan of it at all. Back when I first got into 40k lore, there wasn't much about the Thunder Warriors or Custodes, just little fragments and ideas here and there. Thunder Warriors seemed like this crazy mesh between human and astartes yet still somehow managed to serve their purpose. But then they just disappeared. This brings me to a piece of art that I have always loved featuring the stand off between the Emperor and Horus. http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/9/8215/wallpaper-ravens-flight.jpg It was not until more recent times that we are explained that the warriors standing behind the Emperor are apparently Custodes, but dammit man, before I knew that, I just looked at time. Baroque armour (even more than the marines), crazy WWI looking helmets, seriously antiquated looking weapons. To me, these guys were the last of the Thunder Warriors, Ancient and battle-hardened old men who banded together, took up the last of their warplate, and marched to their doom at their Lord's side. THAT was the coolest thing in the world to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278685-do-you-like-how-the-thunder-warriors-have-been-handled/#findComment-3429431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Entei Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Actually book suggests that it wasn't Alpharius but Sheed Ranko. Sheed Ranko played Alpharius on several occasions and he is the guy who ecountered affordmentioned Lucius, when he treid to stab him, Ranko told him: "This is all you get.". "Alpharius" repeats the same quote before he kills Lucius. OMG. I did not make the connection. Sir, I salute you! Serpent Beneath spoiler: That makes Ranko probably the most badass legionnaire in the series so far. A shame he seems to be dead. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278685-do-you-like-how-the-thunder-warriors-have-been-handled/#findComment-3429539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Actually book suggests that it wasn't Alpharius but Sheed Ranko. Sheed Ranko played Alpharius on several occasions and he is the guy who ecountered affordmentioned Lucius, when he treid to stab him, Ranko told him: "This is all you get.". "Alpharius" repeats the same quote before he kills Lucius. I thought Sheed Ranko was the one who played Alpharius in the Tent while Omegon pretended to be Sheed Ranko? It's a little better if it happens during a fight against 6 and Alpharius kind of lets it happen. Otherwise it's just impossible. I'd prefer if the "sanctified awesomeness" of the Primarchs was left unsullied. Astartes, massed fire, daemons, artillery, eldar psykers, giant creatures, sure. Not humans...But see, I don't see it as being sullied. I see it as one human, who is potentially augmented, but either way is the best of the best of the best soldier in a regiment that is considered to be the best of the best of the best army so far seen in human history with the exception of the Emperor's creations, being that good. It shows the sheer amount of effort it takes just to scratch a being like a Primarch. You know, screw Chuck Norris, you need Bruce Lee and even he isn't enough to actually wound a Priamrch. Instead, you Bruce Lee on Steroids with MJOLNIR armor and a tactical nuke just to think about it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278685-do-you-like-how-the-thunder-warriors-have-been-handled/#findComment-3429541 Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Foes Remain Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Actually book suggests that it wasn't Alpharius but Sheed Ranko. Sheed Ranko played Alpharius on several occasions and he is the guy who ecountered affordmentioned Lucius, when he treid to stab him, Ranko told him: "This is all you get.". "Alpharius" repeats the same quote before he kills Lucius. I thought Sheed Ranko was the one who played Alpharius in the Tent while Omegon pretended to be Sheed Ranko? No, Omegon played Alpharius and Sheed played Omegon..... I think. Damn these Alpha Legionnaires are tricky Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278685-do-you-like-how-the-thunder-warriors-have-been-handled/#findComment-3429546 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Entei Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Actually book suggests that it wasn't Alpharius but Sheed Ranko. Sheed Ranko played Alpharius on several occasions and he is the guy who ecountered affordmentioned Lucius, when he treid to stab him, Ranko told him: "This is all you get.". "Alpharius" repeats the same quote before he kills Lucius. I thought Sheed Ranko was the one who played Alpharius in the Tent while Omegon pretended to be Sheed Ranko? Ranko played Omegon, whose battleplate got dented by Dinas Chayne in the tent, that's when he said it the first time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278685-do-you-like-how-the-thunder-warriors-have-been-handled/#findComment-3429548 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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