Do you like how the Thunder Warriors have been handled?

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Actually, the Scars thread is about Alpharius vs. Omegon as Angron vs. Russ. 

[depthcharge12]

 

Okay. So Omegon was Alpharius, Alpharius was Ranko and Ranko was Omegon and the Fourth Wheel was the Fourth Wheel. Right?

"Who?"

"The guy on first base."

"Who."

"THE GUY ON FIRST BASE!"

 

So someone else has watched in living color?

 

Lou farrakhan

 

whitey on first, my brother on second, consipiracy at short stop. Amen, my brother XD

[depthcharge12]

Actually it would be cool to see Arik as the lone 'terminator/custodes/astartes' that took a pot shot at Horus which distracted him while the emps charged up his mana meter

[Stonerhino]

 

I took it more as the Thunder Warriors are Astartes +1.  But that +1 caused them to burn themselves out.  Thus the short life spans.

 

If you were to genetically give the Thunder Warriors a longer life.  You would effectivally make them Astartes.  Where as the Thunder Warrior's +1 would have been the Primarchs.

 

You have to remember that the Astartes were not planned as a replacement for the Thunder Warriors.  They were all the Emperor could manage as a replacement after losing the Primarchs.  The real replacements.  He just toned down the Thunder Warriors to extend their lives.  Then mixed in some Primarch DnA and bam.  A new soldier to take the fight past Terra.

 

I think GW has done fine with the Thunder Warriors.  And I hope we see more of them during the siege.  But fear that the genetic work being done will make the Grey Knights into "New" Thunder Warriors.  Only time will tell.

 

I agree with the general "burn brighter but shorter" concept but I don't think the TW's only disadvantage is shorter life-span. I think it's a bit more complex than that.

 

Mental instability, such as Insanity and uncontrollable aggression, would be just as big of a problem as physical failure, The key would be that the mental and physical deterioration is sudden and unpredictable, which seems to be the case.

 

As a commander, you basically don't know when these guys are going to turn batsh*t crazy and/or shut down physically.

 

One moment you have a semblance of a somewhat ordered fighting force mowing down enemies, the next moment, fighting breaks out out between your rearguard and your vanguard, while members of your left wing are either twitching on the ground or attacking friendly Imperial Army units. This is a bit of an exaggeration, but it illustrates the drawbacks of an army composed of mentally and physically unstable members. 

 

I'm sure the Emperor managed the Thunder Warriors to minimise their drawbacks. For instance, he could've avoided having them fight alongside mortal troops unless absolutely necessary.

 

Furthermore, the likelihood of insanity/biological failure seems to have increased with age. The Emperor could've grouped the older TW more likely to shut down/go crazy into units similar to the Blood Angels Death Company...using them for suicide attacks and such.

 

Even so...not only do the TW already have short life-spans compared to Astartes (and maybe even regular humans), there's a high probability of biological shutdown or mental breakdown after a period of time. A TW's effective life-span might thus only be a fraction of his life. If he goes crazy, depending on the degree of insanity, he might be of only limited use or of no use.

You have to remember that during 30K IoM historians already were viewing the Thunder Warrior's battles as hyperbole.  "Because those battles just can't be real".  So imagine the fighting that had to take place to be that outlandish to a historian that knows about campains like Ullanor.

 

That does not mesh well with the idea of warriors who are mentally and physically unstable.  I can see the mental hyperviolent aspects of the Thunder Warriors being the result of hypno indoctoration rather then a genetic issue.  Add on top of that some of the worse fighting of the great cusade and PDSD handed out in bulk.  Then you would have the mental failings of the TWs.  Without it even being a genetic thing.

[Greyall]

@depthcharge: I very much like said idea, but it'll probably be one of the Emperor's fellow Perpetuals, namely Oll.

 

On the Thunder Warriors, I liked it more when the fluff had no trouble providing concrete power levels. Back then you knew Custodes and Grey Knights were stronger than Astartes. It served as a guiding light for authors to tell their fights. Sure, some might take the 'laws' as things to be broken and have an Astartes rip an armoured Custodian's spine with his naked hands, but mostly it would keep such cringeworthy moments away.

 

PS: I'm not advocating predetermined winners for every fight. What I mean is that, when a fight between characters with different power levels (be it skill, strength, speed) takes place, it should show that difference.

 

Thunder Warriors are shown to have been stronger, Arik just opens a path made of punched people in Outcast Dead and dominates combat against Astartes. This being 40/30K, of course the 3 to 1 corpse ratio in the sewers in that War Hounds fluff is left open for interpretation, but it always leads to the conclusion that Thunder Warriors were physically superior. Even in the case of an ambush, Astartes are quick (to put it mildly) to regain composure. Even the War Hounds.

[depthcharge12]

@Greyall

Yeah I know about Oll the pious lol, but i thought there was canon that a marine distracted Horus long enough for the Emps to kill  him with red, blue, or green mindbullets

 

Oll served a different function iirc, and stood against his number 1 evilyness and took it like a man to show the Emperor that Horus had truly fallen and was not the same.

 

But, GW in there infinte wisdom took out THE most manly gaurdsman in history and replaced him with a termie, then a custodes. Pfff, WEs eat custodes for breakfast....

 

Hopefully Dan 'the man' Abnett brings him back into existence if we can ever get past Isstvaan 5 (which, lets face it, GW will continue to milk till every legion has had its part there)

 

I defs want Oll to come back and give Horus the middle finger, but I really wish for Arik to take up some manly oath of moment shizz to his Lord, da emps, and perform one last duty to him even though he has been cast aside.

 

Arik + Oll = Grim U Dark

[Kol Saresk]

@Greyall

Yeah I know about Oll the pious lol, but i thought there was canon that a marine distracted Horus long enough for the Emps to kill  him with red, blue, or green mindbullets

 

Oll served a different function iirc, and stood against his number 1 evilyness and took it like a man to show the Emperor that Horus had truly fallen and was not the same.

 

But, GW in there infinte wisdom took out THE most manly gaurdsman in history and replaced him with a termie, then a custodes. Pfff, WEs eat custodes for breakfast....

 

Hopefully Dan 'the man' Abnett brings him back into existence if we can ever get past Isstvaan 5 (which, lets face it, GW will continue to milk till every legion has had its part there)

 

I defs want Oll to come back and give Horus the middle finger, but I really wish for Arik to take up some manly oath of moment shizz to his Lord, da emps, and perform one last duty to him even though he has been cast aside.

 

Arik + Oll = Grim U Dark

Well so far, he is a retired Guardsman who is heading somewhere that looked like a Chaos ship. So it seems like Dan Abnett is doing just that.

[Wade Garrett]

As far as "power levels" go Arik was tossing around Black Sentinels at the end, not Astartes or Custodes. And while Ghota was a beast in his fight with the Outcasts it certainly seemed like Gyutha (who is noted as being incredibly strong even by Astartes standards) could keep up with him, considering he caught the warhammer the Thunder Warrior was swinging and staggered him with a punch.

[Kol Saresk]

When Gyutha fought Ghota, didn't they just crash and wasn't he severely injured from that crash?

[depthcharge12]

When Gyutha fought Ghota, didn't they just crash and wasn't he severely injured from that crash?

 

I believe Gyutha took some rebar to the chest. Liked the whole idea of putting some iron in his spine, but took the phrase a little too far...

[Wade Garrett]

When Gyutha fought Ghota, didn't they just crash and wasn't he severely injured from that crash?

If by "severely injured" you mean the other Astartes propped him against a wall to bleed to death in peace while they fought Ghota and his men. The crash didn't seem to be slowing anyone else down all that much, though, and Ghota did straight up murder Kirion when they fought.

 

Although going by Atharva's thoughts watching them duel, it seems as if the Emperor's Child had the upper hand with superior technical bladework...until Ghota entangled his sword by letting it get lodged in his torso.

[Kol Saresk]

I can almost guarantee that they suffered from the crash, it was just that their enhanced physiology allowed them to ignore it for the most part.

 

So if an Astartes who was bleeding out could keep up with a Thunder Warrior, then it wouldn't necessarily mean that the Thunder Warriors were stronger when compared to the Astartes, but the Thunder Warriors having experience from the battles they participated in could have definitely given them an edge in experience that would have aided them in a fight. That and with ~200 years of experience to draw on, well it certainly is an advantage.

[b1soul]

If you were to do a point by point comparison between Asartes and Thunder Warriors, I think it would look something like this:

1) Strength and speed: advantage TW

 

2) Durability against physical trauma: adv. TW

 

3) Physical size: slight adv. TW

 

4) Cost-effectiveness: adv. SM (SM are the epitome of "bang for your

buck" super soldiers, a real bargain so to speak...whereas TW production

is more time-consuming and costly, though still quicker and cheaper

than producing Custodes)

 

5) Durability against environmental factors/deprivation (toxic

atmospheres, poisons, microbes, radiation, thirst, starvation, etc.):

adv. SM

 

6) Physical stability (life-span, probability of bodily failure): adv. SM

 

7) Mental stability (impulse/aggression control, sanity, discipline): adv. SM

 

8) Overall and combat intelligence (ability to formulate and execute

complex strategies and tactics while adapting to those of an intelligent

foe): adv. SM

If the above were true, I'd say the SM are clearly superior galaxy-conqering supersoldiers. The only advantage the TW have is...they're better brawlers. However if an authour, such as McNeill, w@nks them too hard, it would be hard to justify the switch to Astartes. I'm hoping ADB, Wraight, or Abnett does the next book with TW.

[Greyall]

I'm with b1soul here. The books do hint at different physical levels, it's just that no real person uses terms like "Over 9000". Look at the Custodes in The First Heretic, Argel Tal and the other Word Bearers clearly state they are superior warriors, yet remark on their poor group tactics and, being Astartes, won't drool in amazement for anything other than a Primarch.

 

I'm not saying a strong Marine or a punch won't bring down a Thunder Warrior, combat is not an exchange of strikes to see who drops first. But there is a reason why the Emperor allowed World Eaters to exist and not Thunder Warriors. If a tendency towards bloodletting was all that mattered, that would've seen Angron's kids culled long ago. These TW packed the punch to back up their ferocity. And correct me if I'm wrong, weren't the two TW in Outcast Dead devoid of armour? I know, so were the Astartes, my point is that they waded through every oponent.

 

Still, whatever power levels there are, fights are about context, no point in making any hissy fit, this being the universe where a Bloodthirster can be taken down by a Primarch or an Inquisitor.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah but the problem we run into is that we don't have an example of an equal fight. All Wade and I are saying is that we need that example before anything conclusive can be said.

 

In Betrayal, the War Hounds had a death-kill ratio of 3-4:1, on average. But even Space Marines suffer battle fatigue. Whose to say the Thunder Warriors didn't wait until the XIIth had slaughtered all the prisoners before ambushing their Astartes successors?

 

And in The Outcast Dead, the Space Marines had just crashed. And even on unarmored Space Marine physiology, that still counts for something. Most of them probably didn't show sign of sitting on their butts for months and then all of a sudden crashing at who knows how fast speeds because of their physiology, but it was there. The Death Guard proves that, even if he did get the worst of it.

 

And speaking of the wounded Death Guard. Whenever I hear "Death Guard", melee fighter is not an adjective that springs to mind. But if a bleeding out Astartes can keep up with him until the wounds slow him down, well it does go "heh?"

 

All I'm saying is, we need a clear, conclusive answer. Right now, one answer shows Astartes who are fatigued(yes, I am counting crashing at high speeds with armor as fatigue) versus Thunder Warriors who are not, while the other has undefined circumstances involved other than "battle and the War Hounds won with minimal casualties".

[Greyall]

Agreed with your whole point, doubts are understandable. Still, an Astartes' main advantage is his resistance and survivability, they're capable of operating for a long time and with serious wounds. Plus the whole "near-death superstrong mode" effect is not negligible.

[Kol Saresk]

True. I'm not saying the Thunder Warriors aren't stronger, just that in the same way I feel the need to point out theories and suppositions in other threads, I feel a strong need to point out the doubts in this particular theory. I mean, if something was published and it definitively showed that on average a Thunder Warrior is worth 3.5 Astartes on a ten out of ten example without any external factors that could shift the fight in either direct in an "unfair" advantage, a completely equal playing field, the I will walk away saying that a Thunder Warrior is worth 3.5 Astartes.

 

On a side note, arrogance does have a way of lowering one's performance until it becomes necessary to raise the bar. It could be that the dying Death Guard simply fought harder than the rest and caused Ghota to "become serious".

 

Yes, so far the ball is still in the court that Thunder Warriors are certainly appearing stronger, faster and stranger than Astartes. The ball just isn't in the hoop yet.

[Adra'Melek]

One of the key points (IMO) us the fact in Betrayal you've got a group of Thunder Warriors on Cerberus. This is after it was thought they were all dead. So it highly possibly , if not probable, that these guys are the guys whole didn't die in battle, who's organs didn't fail, who didn't become gibbering maniacs. These are the guys that fought the unification wars against e techno barbarians and butcher warlords (or whatever they're called). Fought them, beat them and survived them. Quite probably as a unit. The Warhounds were green.

 

In Outcast Dead we have two guys that have survived 200 years longer than anyone else. Why should they be used as an example or 'normal' Thunder Warriors? They've been doing god knows what to their bodies to keep them going and dabbling in gene modifications. And again they're veterans of god knows how many battles. Weren't the Outcasts basically normal troopers? A Sergeant WE and diplomatic core stationed on Terra? Not exactly the cream of the crop. That's discounting the fact the book is full of complete nonscense

[Wade Garrett]

Gyutha at least is described as "the first Lantern Bearer, one of the original Seven, who carried the Emperor's banner and planted it in the dark heart of Cassini Regio at the fall of Saturn."

 

Which indicates the Crusader Host was more than some schmucks good for nothing except hanging around Terra looking pretty.

 

On the other hand, I agree that Ghota and Taranis are probably about as representative of typical Thunder Warriors as Khârn and Sevatar are of the average Astartes.

[GhostMalone]

I thought the crusader host was an exemplary host of representatives from all the legions stationed at the palace, sort of like a ceremonial bodyguard. And they never mentioned any word bearers, yet iirc lorgar or Erebus stated that there were word bearers near terra.

 

Could be the loyalist word bearer we've heard rumours about for the knights errant

[Carach]

not sure why u need a definitive answer on who is superior. it will be much like the custodes vs astartes: it depends on the situation.

 

the crusader host were all exceptional astartes for the early part of the crusade at least. as mentioned u have a lantern bearer, atharva was a very talented psyker that had exceptional skills in all of magnus' arts, sevarian (luna wolf) also explains some of his, and the hosts history in wolf hunt.

 

As spoken of before though, id be inclined to believe the TWarriors are brawlers. fighters pure and simple. Astartes were meant for so much more. The ultramarines in several cases now have mentioned how they will one day be planetary governors and the like. You have each legion having some skill or another, (builders, psykers, administrators, protectors etc etc. You cant really say the same of the TWarriors based on the evidence we have at the present time at least. This is why the astartes were the successors.

[Greyall]

not sure why u need a definitive answer on who is superior. it will be much like the custodes vs astartes: it depends on the situation.

 

 

I've always liked reading about the "technical" facts of those Universes I follow. Like Space Marine organs and physical abilites, beastiaries, weapon specs, etc.

 

Of course, I wouldn't expect an answer to dictate all future fights between TWarriors and Astartes or Custodes, it's just one of those things where I think 40K secrecy and duality isn't necessary.

[Carach]

well we know for sure the two from outcast dead are hard for psykers to mess with. atharva was shocked at how 'spiky' (i think the term was) they were upon attempting to enter their minds. That wasnt so much the case with space marines of at least the 30k era.

[Greyall]

It's been said that 30K Marines suffered less mental tweaking, though I don't think it's confirmed, sometimes it just depends on the writer and it's different from one Astartes to the other.

 

No trouble imagining a Thunder Warrior's mind to be a mess of violent thoughts, red rage and, after the culling, a loooooooooot of rancid grudes.

[Kol Saresk]

Its also possible that the defenses aren't a result of the enhancement, but just something that naturally developed fighting alongside the Emperor against some of the most powerful psykers ever recorded.