Do you like how the Thunder Warriors have been handled?

[Greyall]

Hmm. Yes, veterancy has been shown to help shrug off certain spells. I can think of the Wolf Lord in 1000 Sons whose squad is left spasming and having their arms and legs twist in unhealthy ways. All the while he picks himself up and advances towards the Thousand Sons, eyes bloodshot and in a sorry state. Man, that was one of the most badass things I've read in the HH novels.

 

Not sure if he picked himself up during the spell or after, but either way it was incredibly awesome.

 

So yes, it makes perfect sense that they are able to turn their minds "dangerous" when in the presence of psykers.

[WarSpirit]

We should not see who's better only on the physical properties of one or the other. TWs where the first mass product genetic experiments of the emperor. So there was success and failures. He needed brutal tools to conquer barbaric overlords. So even in their failings (physical degenerations, mental instability, etc) TW where the perfect tools. By the end of th unification big E had perfected is genetic experiments due to the primarchs program. Astartes may be less stringer than TWs but are better overall due to all the advantages pointed by others in this thread.

 

It's like making beer. The first one you make may be stronger in alcohol % but the final one you make will be better because off the combinations of many factors (cereal used, temperatures, time of fermentation, etc) even if it's not as strong as the first one you made.

[depthcharge12]

We should not see who's better only on the physical properties of one or the other. TWs where the first mass product genetic experiments of the emperor. So there was success and failures.

It's like making beer. The first one you make may be stronger in alcohol % but the final one you make will be better because off the combinations of many factors (cereal used, temperatures, time of fermentation, etc) even if it's not as strong as the first one you made.

Wow sir.

Bringing brewing into a table top gaming forum brings all levels of awesome

So the thunder warriors could be 40s/malt liquor of the imperiums first, they most definitely will get you drunk but leave a horrible aftertaste (read: necessary culling)

The astartes are 30 racks of natty and keystone - good for any situation and when taken in large numbers, can seriously make the party (read: great crusade)

The custodes are craft beer. Made lovingly in small numbers and keep away the bad stuff, but not quite enough to be anything more than gentlemenly. Look great, taste great, but few uses.

I think i just mindgasmed...time to take a break *sound of can top popping open*

[WarSpirit]

We should not see who's better only on the physical properties of one or the other. TWs where the first mass product genetic experiments of the emperor. So there was success and failures.

It's like making beer. The first one you make may be stronger in alcohol % but the final one you make will be better because off the combinations of many factors (cereal used, temperatures, time of fermentation, etc) even if it's not as strong as the first one you made.

Wow sir.

Bringing brewing into a table top gaming forum brings all levels of awesome

So the thunder warriors could be 40s/malt liquor of the imperiums first, they most definitely will get you drunk but leave a horrible aftertaste (read: necessary culling)

The astartes are 30 racks of natty and keystone - good for any situation and when taken in large numbers, can seriously make the party (read: great crusade)

The custodes are craft beer. Made lovingly in small numbers and keep away the bad stuff, but not quite enough to be anything more than gentlemenly. Look great, taste great, but few uses.

I think i just mindgasmed...time to take a break *sound of can top popping open*

Exactly my point ! :) cheers !

[Carach]

haha yea good call on the brewing. 

[High MarshalGR]

I've personally read they weren't the "good" type of defenders though and that they commited many atrocities during the Unification Wars, and I think this mental instability was a very good reason to get them out of future plans or make dependable defenders. Some Legions of SM weren't that stable as well, but still they weren't to that extreme.

[Wade Garrett]

More extreme than the Night Lords and the pre Angron War Hounds (who practiced decimatio on allied Army continents)? The mind boggles

[Kol Saresk]

Nah, nuking a continent to make an island compliant isn't extreme. Otherwise it'd be called genocide, not compliance.

[WarSpirit]

Yeah the lines are kind of blurred on what could be so extreme as to make the big E say, i got to get rid of those nutheads. Let's face it, world eaters and night lirds have comited great atrrocity but they are tolerated for a long time.

 

I think it's more a question of tool function than attrocity comited that made E move to the legions and drop the TW

[godking]

Had i been the emperor i would not have culled the Thunder warriors.

 

Rather i would have reorganized them into a legion under Arik Taranis and used the experience gotten from the creation of the space legions to ''cure'' their instabilities.

 

I would however not reinforce them with new recruits.

 

Then i would send the thunder warriors at the heaviest xenos resistance every time witling them down in numbers the survivors after their numbers have been wittled down enough i would use them as a garrison force on Terra next to the custodes.

 

Then i would reinforce their numbers again with new recruits having two sets of loyal garrison tropps in the custodes and the thunder warriors instead of one set.

 

Psyker resistant warriors who can match Astartes are simply to valuable a resource to simply cull.

[WarSpirit]

Had i been the emperor i would not have culled the Thunder warriors.

 

Rather i would have reorganized them into a legion under Arik Taranis and used the experience gotten from the creation of the space legions to ''cure'' their instabilities.

 

I would however not reinforce them with new recruits.

 

Then i would send the thunder warriors at the heaviest xenos resistance every time witling them down in numbers the survivors after their numbers have been wittled down enough i would use them as a garrison force on Terra next to the custodes.

 

Then i would reinforce their numbers again with new recruits having two sets of loyal garrison tropps in the custodes and the thunder warriors instead of one set.

 

Psyker resistant warriors who can match Astartes are simply to valuable a resource to simply cull.

 

It depends, It took taranis what, 200 years of research to find a way to cure himself. Not saying it would have taken that long for the emperor but after unification he probably didn't had the time to delve into more research again, having just finished the Astartes and having to start and take care of the crusade. And as far as we can see in outcast dead, the cure probably only fix the physical deficiencies of TW, not the mental instability, so they would still be a very unstable tool. It was just fster and less problems to cull them down i suppose.

[godking]

 

Had i been the emperor i would not have culled the Thunder warriors.

 

Rather i would have reorganized them into a legion under Arik Taranis and used the experience gotten from the creation of the space legions to ''cure'' their instabilities.

 

I would however not reinforce them with new recruits.

 

Then i would send the thunder warriors at the heaviest xenos resistance every time witling them down in numbers the survivors after their numbers have been wittled down enough i would use them as a garrison force on Terra next to the custodes.

 

Then i would reinforce their numbers again with new recruits having two sets of loyal garrison tropps in the custodes and the thunder warriors instead of one set.

 

Psyker resistant warriors who can match Astartes are simply to valuable a resource to simply cull.

 

It depends, It took taranis what, 200 years of research to find a way to cure himself. Not saying it would have taken that long for the emperor but after unification he probably didn't had the time to delve into more research again, having just finished the Astartes and having to start and take care of the crusade. And as far as we can see in outcast dead, the cure probably only fix the physical deficiencies of TW, not the mental instability, so they would still be a very unstable tool. It was just fster and less problems to cull them down i suppose.

It took Taranis 200 years to cure himself because he did not have access to Astartes genetic material. This would not be an issue for the emperor i have to believe that if Arik can cure himself shortly after gaining astartes geneseed the emperor could have relativelly  quickly cured the thunder warriors. And most of the mental instabilities arose from their bodies breaking down. Stop the physical degeneration and you have a psyker resistant force no more savage then the warhounds or the nightlords or the spacewolves.

 

Culling the Thunder Warriors is sure to have been costly in men. Why not ''cure'' them and send them into the most dangerous and difficult battles having your foes cull them for you ?

 

Those that survive can be reorganised as a garrison force .

[WarSpirit]

Are you sure the mental instabilities arose from their body degeneration, can't remember reading that. Yes when he got the astartes geneseed he was able to cure himself fast, but how much time did it took him to figure out that it was what he needed ? If he knew it from the start i doubt he would have waited 200 years to get one. As i said i'm sure it would not have taken long for the big E to figure out how to cure the TWs, i agree with you on that. The way i see it he couldn't spare, or did not want to spare anymore time on this, because it was time he needed to start the crusade. So he took a typical big E decision.

 

From what we see i also agree with you that TWs would not have been worse than WE or NL.

 

I don't know if he could have reorganise them into a garrison, TWs don't look the type to be sitting idle and watch time pass, they don't seem to have been drilled for that. Even astartes, who are psycho-conditionned to obey to orders can take that duty hard. Look how it got to perturabo and his legion that they where always on garrison duties for others. 

[Kol Saresk]

You also have to remember that Arik Taranis is Arik Taranis, not the Emperor. If a Thunder Warrior who just watched the Emperor work can figure out how to fix himself, than the Emperor should have no problem doing it. But he chose not too. Why? Don't know.

 

Personally, if I were going to cull the Thunder Warriors, I would stop making them and start pointing them into the biggest, bloodiest battles I could find until there was no one left to point in a direction.

[WarSpirit]

I agree also with you Kol. But we also have to remember that we only have the story of Arik, not the whole story. But to get to the original point of this post I do like how the TWs have been handled up to now and i certainly want to see more of their story and the motive of the big E for culling them down like he did, instead of using them in a agressive maner agaisnt xenos until there is no more left.

 

But like Arik said in outcast dead, culling them and saying that they died to the last man on the last battle made for great history, maybe it's the only motive the Emperor needed to cull them. It served his purpose better.

[godking]

Are you sure the mental instabilities arose from their body degeneration, can't remember reading that. Yes when he got the astartes geneseed he was able to cure himself fast, but how much time did it took him to figure out that it was what he needed ? If he knew it from the start i doubt he would have waited 200 years to get one. As i said i'm sure it would not have taken long for the big E to figure out how to cure the TWs, i agree with you on that. The way i see it he couldn't spare, or did not want to spare anymore time on this, because it was time he needed to start the crusade. So he took a typical big E decision.

 

From what we see i also agree with you that TWs would not have been worse than WE or NL.

 

I don't know if he could have reorganise them into a garrison, TWs don't look the type to be sitting idle and watch time pass, they don't seem to have been drilled for that. Even astartes, who are psycho-conditionned to obey to orders can take that duty hard. Look how it got to perturabo and his legion that they where always on garrison duties for others. 

It was mentioned by Ahriman in a thousand sons page 381 . Ahriman as one of the first Astartes may have seen Thunder Warriors in action. Arik Taranis was able to figure out how to cure himself with vastly less resources then the emperor when he finally got his hands on some geneseed. As to why he did'nt get his hands on some geneseed earlier ? You have to remember that he is'nt even supposed to be alive and that there are only two ways to get geneseed by either killing astartes or raiding the emperors gene vaults. Killing Astartes on Terra would immediatelly draw investigation and raiding the emperors genevaults would be impossible.

 

I dotn see why he could'nt have reorganised the surviving Thunder warriors as a garrison force for Terra they could be used to train Astartes custodes  (and thunder warrior) applicants and used to police the solar system by the time of the end of the crusade the few surviving thunder warriors from the  would be veterans of 300 + years of warfare those few survivors could be used as a garrison force or seeing as they are psyker resistant used as a strikeforce against psyker foes or they could be used in the executioner role that the WE and spacewolves took. As the thunder warriors are not Astartes killing Astartes would not really bother them.

 

Letting the Thunder warriors be culled by sending them into the most bloody battles against the most dangerous foes and reorganizing the few survivors into a garrison force or strike force is in my opinion the option that lets you get the maximum use out of the thunder warriors.

[WarSpirit]

Thx for the info Godking, haven't read a thousand sons. You make a good point I don't deny it. Guess will just have to wait for an answer from the big E himself. Next time i see him i'll ask.

 

Warspirit walking in the corridors of the imperial palace runs across the big E. Stopping him : Hey dude, what the heck with the TWs ? Don't you think that was dumb of you ? 

 

Big E : What ? No

 

Warspirit : Godking thinks so, and so do I.

 

Big E : .....

 

Flash of light, only ashes on the floor, big E walks away.

 

Big E to himself : How did he say the other guy's name was again ? goldy ?gooding ? a what the hell don't have time with this.

[Adeptus-Alaska]

I don't have betrayal yet, can you actually field thunder warriors?

[Conn Eremon]

Nope. When people talk about Thunder Warriors in Betrayal, they are referring to the fluff related to the Unification Wars and War Hounds.

 

You could counts-as one, though. Convert some old armour marks with Guardsman bits?

[WarSpirit]

I don't have betrayal yet, can you actually field thunder warriors?

We are refering to Betrayal, novel from black library by ADB. Witch can be confusing with the book Betrayal by forgeworld 

[Conn Eremon]

Betrayer is ADB's BL novel, Betrayal is FW's 30k rulebook.

[Adra'Melek]

 

 

I don't have betrayal yet, can you actually field thunder warriors?

We are refering to Betrayal, novel from black library by ADB. Witch can be confusing with the book Betrayal by forgeworld

It certainly can be confusing, especially since the Black Library novel is BetrayER :)

 

Edit: ninja

[Wade Garrett]

All this talk of Taranis ruling a Legion of Thunder Warriors...Arik isn't exactly the poster boy for sanity himself, what with his ganger empire in the Petitioner's Quarter and bifurcating people to hang on hooks for no reason whatsoever.

 

Garrisoning Terra with TW would probably end about as well as replacing Dorn and the Fists with Angron or Curze's crew. Which is not well at all.

 

As for hurling the Warriors into the worst battles of the Great Crusade with no new recruits...that takes time. Time for resentment to build and suspicions to fester. Time for Four Certain Somebodies to make offers to the bitter, mentally unstable superhuman soldiers. Uh oh....

[WarSpirit]

I don't have betrayal yet, can you actually field thunder warriors?

We are refering to Betrayal, novel from black library by ADB. Witch can be confusing with the book Betrayal by forgeworld

It certainly can be confusing, especially since the Black Library novel is BetrayER

Edit: ninja

Haha !

Yeah you're right ! you see how confusing it is !

[Brother Heinrich]

I personally love how the Thunder Warriors have been painted in the BL novels and surrounding fluff. The again I'm always a sucker for "Last of a Dying Breed" type characters. The imagery that they provoke in my mind is just awesome though. The Marines Malevolent seem to be a pale futuristic echo of what the Thunder Warriors were at the dawn of the Unification Wars. Brutal, Massive killers meant to crush all opposition into dust with extreme force. I know there are many Astartes Legions that fit that bill as well (World Eaters, Death Guard, Space Wolves, Iron Warriors, etc.) But Astartes have always felt somewhat refined, no matter the brutality they use to achieve conquests. Even warlords like Ezekiel Abbadon still talk about their 'humors' being unbalanced. 

Thunder Warriors don't talk about imbalanced humors, they don't scheme and plot like Erebus or the Alpha Legion, They aren't statesmen and rulers like the Ultramarines, they aren't immaculate warriors and artists like the Emperors Children or the Blood Angels, they don't wear the mantle of knighthood and honor that the Dark Angels Do, they aren't the masters of technology and industry that the Iron Hands and Iron Warriors are, they certainly aren't religious fanatics like the Word Bearers or seekers of wisdom like the Thousand Sons. Almost every Space Marine Legion, though brutal killers, has some redeeming quality about it tied to statecraft or betterment of man. The couple exceptions to this are probably the Death Guard, the World Eaters, and the Night Lords.

Thunder Warriors are basically Conan the Barbarian in super-human form. The single quote that best sums up the mentality they seem to possess is from the original Conan film.

"Conan, what is best in life?"
"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women."