Do you like how the Thunder Warriors have been handled?

[b1soul]

Psyker resistant warriors who can match Astartes are simply to valuable a resource to simply cull.

 

The TW are prone to insanity and uncontrollable aggression. They would make terrible garrison defenders. Imagine having TW freaking out on Terra. They'd have no enemies at which to direct their aggression. You'd have to cull the insane ones.

 

TW are like World Eaters with Butcher's Nails, except probably even crazier

 

 

You also have to remember that Arik Taranis is Arik Taranis,

not the Emperor. If a Thunder Warrior who just watched the Emperor work

can figure out how to fix himself, than the Emperor should have no

problem doing it. But he chose not too. Why? Don't know.

 

 

It remains to be seen whether Arik has truly cured himself. Keep in mind

that the Emperor may have been able to produce physically stable TW but

perhaps the resources he would've had to expend to do so would've

rendered these stable TW to be too costly. The Emperor wasn't concerned

about the welfare of the TW. He was concerned about designing the most

cost-effective supersoldiers, not just physically impressive brawlers.

[WarSpirit]

 

Psyker resistant warriors who can match Astartes are simply to valuable a resource to simply cull.

 

The TW are prone to insanity and uncontrollable aggression. They would make terrible garrison defenders. Imagine having TW freaking out on Terra. They'd have no enemies at which to direct their aggression. You'd have to cull the insane ones.

 

TW are like World Eaters with Butcher's Nails, except probably even crazier

 

 

>You also have to remember that Arik Taranis is Arik Taranis,

not the Emperor. If a Thunder Warrior who just watched the Emperor work

can figure out how to fix himself, than the Emperor should have no

problem doing it. But he chose not too. Why? Don't know.

 

 

It remains to be seen whether Arik has truly cured himself. Keep in mind

that the Emperor may have been able to produce physically stable TW but

perhaps the resources he would've had to expend to do so would've

rendered these stable TW to be too costly. The Emperor wasn't concerned

about the welfare of the TW. He was concerned about designing the most

cost-effective supersoldiers, not just physically impressive brawlers.

 

 

I was also thinking about that. Perhaps the "cure" tarik made is only temporary. He seems cured and feels better, but nothing says it will last. Perhaps the Emperor knew this and that's why he never invested time in curing them, knowing that it would do nothing. Maybe this cure will have after effects, making the TW's condition worse.

[The Broker]

Or maybe the TW couldn't have taken on the role of Astartes due to lacking some of the other Astartes implants.

 

It's possible they're incompatible with the black carapace. 

 

Or they may not have any of the implants that allow marines to survive in hostile environments (eg. such as on Barbarus).

 

Any of these would be reasons a cure would be pointless. Astartes don't have to be stronger than TW, but they have to be able to fight in a wider variety of environments, and they have to be able to use power armour.

[Kol Saresk]

Not sure about that. By the time the Thunder Warriors arrived, Earth had been the victim of multiple nuclear wars. The planet was a giant ball of radiation. And Mk I PA offered very little protection when just compared to Mk II.

 

And if the emperor meant to make "supersoldiers", then for the most part he faile as most of the Astartes were warriors.

[godking]

All this talk of Taranis ruling a Legion of Thunder Warriors...Arik isn't exactly the poster boy for sanity himself, what with his ganger empire in the Petitioner's Quarter and bifurcating people to hang on hooks for no reason whatsoever.

 

Garrisoning Terra with TW would probably end about as well as replacing Dorn and the Fists with Angron or Curze's crew. Which is not well at all.

 

As for hurling the Warriors into the worst battles of the Great Crusade with no new recruits...that takes time. Time for resentment to build and suspicions to fester. Time for Four Certain Somebodies to make offers to the bitter, mentally unstable superhuman soldiers. Uh oh....

Is Arik less sane then say Curze or Angron ?

 

Yes Arik ruled a Gangster empire with brutality but what do you expect of him ? He is not supposed to be alive and finding a cure for himself takes time and resources

 

And halting the physical degeneration would have made him saner as most of the mental instabilities are a result of his body breaking down.

 

So with phyisical degeneration halted and the mental instability that comes with it you have a force of psyker resistant very experienced super soldiers that you can hurl at your most dangerous foes and eventually chose to reinforce and keep as a backup executioner force or garrison force for the solar system.

 

Another thing about the Thunder warriors is that there was no warp lore used in their creation.

 

Every Primarch and by extension Astartes  was created by warp lore through deals that the emperor made with the four you know who's.

 

Having an extra veteran force that has proven itself since before the crusade is to vaulable an asset to simply cull.

[Conn Eremon]

Yet not really worth keeping. They would be a terrible garrison force and their use to the Great Crusade would be negligible in comparison. If the Emperor was the sentimental sort, I could understand him making the effort. But he's not. They were tools and when they were no longer of use, he discarded them. And in the process, sharpened his new and improved tools.

[WarSpirit]

 

Another thing about the Thunder warriors is that there was no warp lore used in their creation.

 

Every Primarch and by extension Astartes was created by warp lore through deals that the emperor made with the four you know who's.

.

Now that is pure daemon lies to turn the weak WBs. Having runes or glyphs similar to those from the WB homeworld in the primarchs pods does not mean that the emperor made deals with the four. Thoses runes could simply be wards against eato entities, another fail safe in case the geller field was breached.

[Greyall]

Not sure about that. By the time the Thunder Warriors arrived, Earth had been the victim of multiple nuclear wars. The planet was a giant ball of radiation. And Mk I PA offered very little protection when just compared to Mk II.

 

And if the emperor meant to make "supersoldiers", then for the most part he faile as most of the Astartes were warriors.

 

 

Actually I don't think that last statement is correct, Kol. Astartes are soldiers, trained to fight in packs or successively larger size: Squads, Companies, Chapters, Legions. Everything about them is collective-related.

 

Argel Tal says as much when watching the Custodes fight: they are lions, while the Astartes are wolves, Custodes fight alone, relying on each one's skills to survive as a group.

 

Sure Space Marines have awesome heroes and can deal with tremendous threats alone, but their strength is in the collective.

[Kol Saresk]

 

Not sure about that. By the time the Thunder Warriors arrived, Earth had been the victim of multiple nuclear wars. The planet was a giant ball of radiation. And Mk I PA offered very little protection when just compared to Mk II.

And if the emperor meant to make "supersoldiers", then for the most part he faile as most of the Astartes were warriors.

 

 

Actually I don't think that last statement is correct, Kol. Astartes are soldiers, trained to fight in packs or successively larger size: Squads, Companies, Chapters, Legions. Everything about them is collective-related.

 

Argel Tal says as much when watching the Custodes fight: they are lions, while the Astartes are wolves, Custodes fight alone, relying on each one's skills to survive as a group.

 

Sure Space Marines have awesome heroes and can deal with tremendous threats alone, but their strength is in the collective.

And? The Romans fought in Legions which then organized down and down. Organization is not what creates a soldier; it is attitude. And it is an attitude that we only see in relatively few of the Legions. Granted, some of the more memorable characters are starting to have this attitude, but the key word is starting.

[Wade Garrett]

 

Now that is pure daemon lies to turn the weak WBs. Having runes or glyphs similar to those from the WB homeworld in the primarchs pods does not mean that the emperor made deals with the four. Thoses runes could simply be wards against eato entities, another fail safe in case the geller field was breached.

Or they could be ads for Taco Bell, who were picked as sponsors for the Emperor's sons after they won the Franchise Wars during Unification. That's not what the fluff says, though.

 

TFH (page 294) says the words on the pods "seemed a long and complicated prayer, beseeching outside forces for blessings and strength". Not a defense against the neverborn. And there are numerous statements in the HH novels that sorcery as well as science was used to birth the Primarchs.

[b1soul]

1. By the time the Thunder Warriors arrived, Earth had been the victim of multiple nuclear wars. The planet was a giant ball of radiation. And Mk I PA offered very little protection when just compared to Mk II.

 

2. And if the emperor meant to make "supersoldiers", then for the most part he faile as most of the Astartes were warriors.

 

 

1. I think you're confusing Terra with Baal. Terra was ravaged for sure but it wasn't an irradiated ball. Humans were still surviving without biohazard suits. Ramshackle settlements had kids running around in rags. 

 

2. That's not the direction BL is headed with Astartes. Astartes are supposed to be the best battlefield soldiers. In The First Heretic, Astartes are portrayed as the superior soldiers whereas Custodes are the superior warriors. The Astartes show much more precise unit cohesion and group maneuvring. In reality, unit cohesion and teamwork on the battlefield trumps individual combat prowess any day. Collective discipline, maneuvering, and timing are incredibly important.  

 

Physical strength and speed along with the ability to withstand intense physical trauma certainly make you very dangerous in melee, which occurs quite often in 40K, but being good in melee isn't the only factor determining who's the superior soldier...even in 40K.

 

In an even numbers fight between SM and TW on a generic battlefield, the TW would only have an edge only once they get into close combat...but battles don't start at close combat range. The SM have a high chance of outmaneuvering the TW (making better use of cover, outflanking the TW, etc.) and gunning a large number down before the TW close the distance.

 

Brain almost always triumphs over brawn. In evolution, Neanderthals who were physically superior to us in almost every way, were outcompeted by the more intelligent Cro-Magnon, our ancestors. On the battlefield, intelligence, discipline, teamwork, flexibility/adaptability would be huge assets, especially against intelligent foes.

[Kol Saresk]

1. No, I'm referring to Earth. It isn't as bad as Baal, but usualeven Chernobyl will be pumping out minor background radiation long after its "habitable" again in 20,000 years or so. Just because the radiation is all background radiation doesn't change the fact it still exists.

 

2. The Roman Legions were filled with warriors and they had cohesion some modern Militaries would be jealous of. It is attitude, not method, not performance, not ability, attitude. It's that same line of difference that will separate a knight from a Viking hero of old or a Greek legend. All of these people are similar and yet different by some, small line. Now, the 30K Astartes are being shown as soldiers, but its not because they're "organized" or "cohesive". Gangs can do organization and cohesiveness. It is not a trait unique to soldiers.

 

The average Astartes is a warrior. Some, like Argel Tal, the Imperial Fists, the Ultramarines, the Iron Hands, the Word Bearers(before their degeneration) and several select individuals, are soldiers. But Sevatar and the Night Lords, Erebus, Hol Badar, they are brawlers. Khârn and the rest of the World Eaters, the Dark Angels, the Blood Angels, the Space Wolves, the rest are warriors. Albeit knightly warriors in the case of the Dark Angels.

 

The Legions might have started out as soldiers, but that was not their end result.

 

Besides, for all we know, the Thunder Warriors were just as organized and cohesive as the Astartes. After all, a mere few hundred were able to "organize" a rebellion(before or after it slaughtered the leadership is unknown) to the point an entire Legion was needed to be called in order to put it down.

[Wade Garrett]

I disagree, Kol.

 

The Night Lord's Atramentar are definitely a unified brotherhood, not mere "brawlers". For that matter, First Claw in the Talos series may hate each others guts but when confronted with an external threat they (well, everyone but Uzuas) unite into a single efficient killing machine.

 

On the flip side,Argel Tal fights like a wild animal as part of the Gal Vorbak, and abandons his Vakrah Jahl to their own devices on the strength of a few words from Erebus. He seems to operate much more on "virtus" than soldierly "disciplina".

[GhostMalone]

Ill disagree with the argel tal comment.

Khârn was his sworn oath brother, he left his squad to protect his oaths and his brother that's pretty noble considering

[Kol Saresk]

And who says brawlers can't be organized? Gangs and terrorist cells are organized. Would you call them soldiers?

 

However, originally, before the Gal Vorbak, Argel Tal was a soldier. That's why I listed him as one.

[Wade Garrett]

And who says brawlers can't be organized? Gangs and terrorist cells are organized. Would you call them soldiers?However, originally, before the Gal Vorbak, Argel Tal was a soldier. That's why I listed him as one.

If they're organized to the degree of "Tactical operators operating tactically in an operationally tactical manner" then yeah, the lines start to blur a bit.

 

As for soldering being a matter of attitude, not method, performance, and ability...um, what?

 

Without the ability to follow orders or perform certain tasks as a unit I don't care what the group attitude is, you don't have an army, you have a mob.

 

Can you clarify what you mean by "attitude" a bit?

[Kol Saresk]

Its hard to explain. It's one of those things that... Its one of those blurry lines. Either someone is or they ain't. Doesn't matter if they can follow orders or act "tactically in an operationally tactical manner". I did that for ten weeks and did it well and I'd never call myself a soldier. That's nothing more than a cohesive unit.

 

It's... Idk, Heathens or someone else who has more experiencing than I where military is concerned might do a better job of explaining.

[Conn Eremon]

Warrior and soldier are the kind of words that overlap in vague terms. People may be able to come to a consensus on general aspects but will by and large differ when trying to pin down specifics. People of military background might care more about it, especially in how the words might apply to them, but it doesn't necessarily make an expert on the differences. An expert potter might be able to dispute the different kinds of clay with authority but a Marine wouldn't have the same authority when discussing the differences of a warrior or a soldier. It would just be his take on it, though his take would matter more to him then someone of a nonmilitary background would to them.

 

And it's not just those two words, either. What about a fighter? A fighter can be either one, or neither. Or both.

[Greyall]

I meant to answer you right away, Kol, but many of our B&C brothers have already done it: yes, being/acting as a soldier is a matter of in-battle organization and action. If, as said, a group of warriors/brawlers/whatever fight as favour tactics that count on the collective strength rather than each one's talents, then yes, they're soldiers.

 

Not disagreeing that an Astartes' mindset is typically that of a warrior but, really, is there any better solution than proud, ultra-skilled warriors that know how to fight as one?

[b1soul]

And who says brawlers can't be organized?

 

Brawlers prone to violent insanity and frothing rages. I'm thinking they're wired in a way that they're more likely to go crazy during the stress of battle. It's both a plus and a minus, much like the Butcher's Nails...but I'm inclined to say that overall, it's a minus (especially if the foe is smart enough to exploit their blood frenzy). Otherwise, why would the Emp switch to Astartes? 

 

In most situations, lucid, disciplined Astartes able to fight with coordination and precision would likely get the job done with less collateral damage while suffering fewer casualties. The WE are the SM legion with the fighting style most similar to that of the TW. The World Eaters are known for taking more casualties and inflicting more undesired collateral damage because of their hyperaggressive style. The TW might be stronger than WE man for man, but they're probably even more insane.   

[Adra'Melek]

Where are we getting all our information from here? Is it just from Betrayal and Outcast Dead? If so you have a tiny quote in Betrayal and couple of extreme examples in Outcast Dead 200+ years after they were supposedly died (and the last time they fought wars with other soldiers, had training, etc).

 

We know very little about 'normal' Thunder Warriors other than SOME were prone the physical and/or mental breakdowns.

[Greyall]

Well, the Emperor did cull all of them (all those that didn't shut down by themselves). Also, Outcast Dead does speak of them in general rather profusely, if memory serves.

[Kol Saresk]

All Arik Taranis does is speak of them in generalized tones. It keeps coming back to building a stereotype for thousands based off of only a few examples. Or in this case, two examples.

[Greyall]

Well, I'm focusing more on their physical attributes, the mental part isn't as fresh in my memory and, of course, it varies more from one individual to another. Still, we have the Thousand Son saying their mind is spiky, but that may be a common defense mechanism against telepaths.

[Kol Saresk]

True. But the problem is that in the same book, we have a mortally wounded Death Guard keeping up with a theoretically superior gene-enhanced individual whose screwy genetics have pushed him into overdrive. A World Eater who can punch through power armor and rip out a spine of a second gene-enhanced individual. And then we have two screwy-messed up gene-augments running around creating other gene-augments while screwing with themselves even further. For all we know, the cull and gene-enhancements gone bad are a result of psychosis because Arik Taranis felt abandoned when the Space Marines were made and in an effort to make himself superior, he screwed himself up and simply doesn't want to admit it. And so his memories became twisted by lies when in actuality the Emperor only lied about the death of the Thunder Warriors because he figured it was better than telling the truth of how they destroyed themselves.