Do you like how the Thunder Warriors have been handled?

[TDF]

If the Emperor had used the remaining TWs as suicide troops during the Great Crusade it might have been demoralising for the Astartes. "Once your objective is complete I will deliberately run you into the ground until you're all dead." Whereas secretly culling them removes that problem.

[GhostMalone]

Okay I've been thinking on this and I've found a flaw that's really pissing me off.

 

The thunder warriors in outcast dead needed astrates gene seed to stabilise themselves, but as we know a fair bit of astrates gene seed is corrupted in one form or another.

 

Now lets say they get ahold of any of the traitors gene seed from those present. World eaters gene seed high rage prone to bezerker status prior to nails, we know emperors children had a serious incident regarding their gene seed. Luna wolves/SoH seems stable. Thousand sons flesh change. Death guard I'm not sure about.

 

So if the big e who is a master geneticist and all round wizard can't get the gene seed stable how could a thunder warrior?

[Carach]

do we know which geneseed he did manage to get hold of? 

[Adra'Melek]

The Emperor's Children problem related to physical loss of gene seed when a ship carrying it disappeared. World Eaters were supposedly selected for aggression originally and being brutal is not the same as corrupted. Only really the Thousand Sons had the corruption problem, IIRC.

[Kol Saresk]

You're assuming that he made the gene-seed stable. Usually, it is one or two organs that don't function properly and those are what cause the entire breakdown. Like the Salamanders, its the organ that deals with adjusting skin tone. Imperial Fists don't have a Bletcher's Gland. My guess would be that he doesn't need the parts that make the organs, but the parts that makes the body accept the organs and integrate them into the host's body. He has already has his own set of enhancements, they just appear to not be settling, a problem also experienced by Talos. All Taranis needs to do is just make them settle. He basically just coopted comupter code to repairs to a software program that needed it in order to function.

[GhostMalone]

Hmmm but with talons his body was undoing the changes caused by the gene seed. Wouldn't an already modified post human like a thunder warrior adding or changing his physical makeup cause more damage or degradation to his system?

 

Essentially

[Kol Saresk]

Well, IIRC Fabius Bile seemed to have no problem doing it.

 

But yeah, if I had to guess, Taranis was suffering from the same problem as Talos. He just blamed the problem for his personality and loss of station.

[Wade Garrett]

Well, IIRC Fabius Bile seemed to have no problem doing it.

 

 

In Angel Exterminatus every "upgraded" Astartes Fabulous tried to create wound up becoming a mindless monster, and all of them except the two he made from Imperial Fists ended up melting into piles of fleshy goop because their bodies couldn't deal with all the crazy alterations. I wouldn't exactly call that "having no problem."

 

His only real success stories are the Noise Marines and bringing Eidolon back to life.

[Kol Saresk]

However, all of the Emperor's Children he experimented on(including Eidolon, who was also "resurrected" by the self-same Apothecary) are recorded to have survived with organs having been opened and put back together again differently before and even with alien DNA.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

I think you guys are a bit off base on the motives and motivations of the Lightning Bearer and his minion Ghota. Arik and Ghota were both the legionnaires of the Emperor in their day just as the Astartes are the torchbearers of the present. Arik and Ghota are proud men who were built to withstand apocalyptic psychic conflict engaged against genetically engineered supermen, pseudo/proto-Astartes so to speak. The (as aptly said earlier) Thunder Warriors are prototypes; blueprints for the Astartes and Custodes forms to be developed or refined (mention of proto-Custodes dwarf in TOD as well) but these warriors were built singularly to conquer Earth. From all signs, as mentioned in Horus Rising, Betrayal and The Outcast Dead, the Unification Wars were mega-apocalyptic in scope and scale; atomics, chemical/biological, uncontrolled psychic warfare which reshaped Earth and its people to a point that the Emperor had to "re-engineer" and "fix" the human genetic code on Earth before setting off on his Great Crusade (Betrayal).

 

The Thunder Warriors were purpose built for the Unification conflict and are stronger and hardier than Astartes with a psychic defense which Atharva, the Thousand Son in Outcast Dead, would not even dare brush beyond the surface of Arik and Ghota's minds for 'fear of being overwhelmed'. Atharva regularly controls, overwhelms, checks and delves into the minds of Custodes, his Crusader Host fellowship (Navigator sees Atharva calming Sgt. Slaughter), human pyskers and Navigators without fear (the Custodes he does not delve to not alert the Custodes but not out of fear of being overwhelmed). As mentioned above the Emperor sends his Hounds of War against the Renegade Thunder Warriors and scored as 1-3 ratio of k/d which the Emperor was like 'Yo, they did really good dawg!' *megabrofist*

 

Thunder Warriors are just stronger than the later breed of warrior but they had to be; the Emperor had to bring Unity and he was working against the clock. When the turmoil in the Warp subsided all bets were off and it had to be GO! time. The threats of Pre-Unity were dangerous and had to be tamed quickly in order to beat the 4-Powers. This same "rush" against the threat became the Emperor's most pressing goal with creating a measure of stability and then a solution for the greater danger at hand: Chaos. He needed invincible warriors that were immune to psychic threats because they needed to be. Sorcerors, psykers, demon-evokers and other nasty psyker, occult, magick and ritualistic rites seemed to be a common theme; enough that they called those times the Psi-Wars.

 

Despite all this the Thunder Warrior's were 'flawed' and suffered biological breakdown and Arik wonders to the Crusader Host if this was intentional or just a by-product of the extensive genetic/biological modification that is present in the Thunder Warrior process. Arik explains it very well about how at the culmination of Unity that the Emperor needed to be the lone survivor of that time to deliver humanity both as a savior and conqueror. Arik says that having stories of an invincible host of warriors at your back detracts from the mythos neccessary to be this heroic deliverer. Arik understood this and was not bitter; he knew that he was a tool and a toy that was cast aside when broken to be forgotten.

 

Arik is a smart 'man'. Very smart. Smart enough to prolong his life well beyond that of any known living Thunder Warrior and smart enough to have gleaned enough science to recreate a genelab at the foot of the Emperor's Palace with his own homebrew equipment and attempt to cure the degenerative conditions Arik and Ghota suffer. These are not the warriors they once were; Arik and Ghota have degeneration in their tissues, have had their memories eroded, do not possess the olfactory and touch senses they once had and do not possess mental control of their faculties as they once did. While we may sit back and say "They are monsters!" when they butcher the informant in the Petitioner's City, this type of techno-barbarian warlord is all they know or have been around. These are not guys who sit around scribing runes in their armor, painting pictures, dying their hair to look pretty or the like but they are warriors pure and simple who understand violence, control, dominance, and murder. They are a product of their times.

 

The Thunder Warriors were not built for or stable (this seems more likely and has been hinted at in some of the brief blurbs on the TWs) enough for galactic domination. Space travel itself does not obey the rules of time due to the nature of Warp travel but Space Marines can stand up to the test of time. Even if the warp drives on a ship happened to go out and the Marines arrived to the party at non-Warp power about 150 years late they could still theoretically prosecute the mission (if still viable). Thunder Warriors would be dead or would need like a walker to get around, swap annointing oils for Icy-Hot and have medicae hold their bolters up. TWs just arent made for galactic conquest but neither were they intended to be as they were a necessity to get from point A to point B; Terran Unity, Unification of Mars and cleansing of the Terran System so he could design the tools needed to conquer the galaxy.

[Kol Saresk]

Au contraire. Betrayal has Thunder Warriors(specifically called "renegade" Thunder Warriors) making well past the Unification of Terra. Arik may have survived longer than they did, but that's because they had the entire XII Legion sicked on them.

 

And you are also basing everything on the words of one Thunder Warrior, who may or may not be suffering from psychosis. It might be true, however, it comes up as supposition because there is no unbiased, third party POV.

 

Just look at the Night Lords and how they remember Curze. Zso Sahaal swears up and down that he was the successor. Acerbus swears the same. Talos remembers him as some sort of Messiah figure. And the list goes on and on and on, with each Night Lord having a different memory based on their own unique interpretation and bias. Why should expect any better from a Thunder Warrior who knowingly admits his physiology is attempting to destroy itself?

 

His story might be true, it might not. Until something says it is or isn't it all becomes supposition, and therefore debatable.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

It is more than one Thunder Warrior's words; it is the actions taken by them and against them from several characters and the descriptions of HH:Betrayal and the War Hounds kill ratio and Emperor's reaction. While the older descriptions of the Thunder Warriors described them as inferior to the Astartes, the newer iteration is that the Astartes are superior in that they are able to take the Emperor's conquest galaxy-wide as opposed to limited life-span of the Thunder Warriors. Even in the old stuff I cant remember anything that says the Thunder Warriors were weaker or less able than Space Marines. I really like this newer take on them being more powerful yet 'unstable' and subject to biological breakdown. Considering this, the TWs still beat the tar out of Space Marines (k/d) in the few force on force descriptions and battles we know about. Still, 3 to 1 defensive isnt anything special; prolly why big E was like "damn!"

And yes, it alot of it is supposition or biased information but it is what we have and of course it is up for debate! I just think this thread was painting the character of Arik to be some evil brute. This was a cunning warlord who was in charge of a city at the foot of the Emperor's Palace. Perhaps the Emperor let him keep the 'peace' there so he wasnt a "renegade" per say but I doubt that (although it would have an awesome Rome-esque Vorenus feel!). As to whether or not his story is true, he would have no reason to lie from his point of view and the Emperor would likely have some completely different spin as to why the Thunder Warriors are the way they are. The Lightning Bearer showed himself to be an honorable man though; he went over to try and negotiate for the geneseed of the fallen Crusader Host. He could have just as easily attacked the Marines if he was purely a brutish killer but he was going to offer them a choice. I think it would have led to blood once he learned they burned the corpses though Either way, he was getting geneseed. Period. Arik was desperate and opportunities like that dont come around very often.

I like the Pre-Unity stuff now better than the 30k stuff. It is shadowy and secretive the way the HH used to be in the earliest iterations.

[Kol Saresk]

Umm no offense, but the portrayal in HH: Betrayal has more than a few variables in it.

 

1.) The War Hounds chose to go it alone.

 

2.) This was one of the first Legion-wide actions by the XII. Up until this point, the War Hounds had been acting as a Reserve Legion, constantly building numbers while only sending off portions to reinforce failing frontlines. At the time of Cerberus, the average War Hound is reasonably inexperienced when compared to other Astartes, and even more so when compared to the Renegade Thunder Warriors.

 

3.) We have no evidence that when the War Hounds attacked that they went up against the Thunder Warriors in fair, equal combat. We don't even know what they had for equipment. This and reason number 2 do not look favorably on the death:kill ratio as the odds are slanted into the Thunder Warriors favor, as the Renegades had three million potential cannon fodder plus a couple centuries of experience in warfare, not to mention having surrvived some of the most intense warfare in the Unification Wars.

 

4.) We also have no evidence that the Renegade Warriors were suffering from the same genetic instabilities as Arik Taranis. We only Arik Taranis' opinion on that matter.

 

 

Summary:

 

All of this is actually stacking the odds into the favor of the Thunder Warriors. A direct equivalent would be taking an entire Tenth Company against a squad of ten Traitor Veterans who were at the Walls of the Imperial Palace who also have say, twenty thousand mortals. And at the end of it, 3-4 Scouts are dead for every one Traitor. Actually, I'm pretty sure my scenario has better odds of being accurate. But that's what we have. For all we know, the War Hounds slaughtered the prisoners while the Warrior were hiding, waiting. And then, as they were beginning to leave, the Thunder Warriors ambushed them. We don't know. Its a generalized battle report.

 

And the fact that the Thunder Warriors are referred to as Renegades and happen to be present when a penal colony is undergoing a revolution/rebellion from Imperial Rule, suggest at least one faction that is(well, was) working against the Emperor. It is possible that after the "last great victory", the Thunder Warriors turned on each other and there were so few survivors that they were able to just disappear in a planet full of techno-barbarians and fifty thousand other shades of gene-enhanced augments running around. And the Emperor decided to say they all died to cover up the insurrection. And then He started making the Primarchs so each Legion would be ultimately loyal to its Primarch with eachprimarch in turn being ultimately loyal to Him. Which would explain why each Legion needed to find its own Primarch and was so willing to drop customs and traditions at the drop of a hat and even follow them into Heresy(well, for the most part).

 

We only have two Thunder Warriors who are confirmed to have genetic degredation. And even they admit mental instability. Not making him sound evil, just amoral. He does run the Hooverville with a gang of genetically enhanced criminals. IIRC, he even had an extortion ring going. And bodies hanging from meathooks. The last person we saw who had mental instabilities and bodies hanging from meathooks while running a gang of gene-enhanced criminals was Curze. Not exactly a point in his favor.

 

And I wasn't saying that he lied, just that due to his genetic degradation, that it is possible his memory has become..... Unreliable. Sort of like how when an accident happens, everyone has a slightly different story even though they all saw virtually the same thing and have no reason to deviate. The mind itself alters the memory. And with a body as unstable as Arik Taranis, who knows what could happen.

 

Of course, this is all just random speculation meant to point out the holes present.

 

5.) I never referred to Arik Taranis as a renegade, only those that were present at Cerberus. That is the HH: Betrayal used to describe them.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

So uh, what are you arguing here? That you want to wait for more evidence before saying definitively they are better? That is your decision but dont go around saying they are lesser or equal to when they have been shown on several occasions to be more potent or deny the little evidence (the only evidence in the setting) we have. Sure you can make suppositions all you want but the combat described in Betrayal was described as close quarters. The Space Marines did well and are remarked to have been worthy of the Unity mantle by Ghota and Arik but they are not the equals or betters of the Thunder Warriors man to man in violence. Show me an example of a Thunder Warrior getting ground to pulp or having his spine ripped out by a Space Marine. It might happen but till then.....

 

I do think a healthy Gyutha would have given Ghota a run for his money; that guy was likely a legend in his own Legion if his titles were to be believed.

 

Amoral is the proper word for Arik. He kills without mercy. He squeezes an entire city to help ensure his own survival. His enforcers roam the streets keeping his peace and punishing those who break it. He can be magnanimous and honorable as well as wrathful. Sounds like half the Primarchs and most especially the Emperor. He seems more like Angron to me than Curze.

[Adra'Melek]

Correct Meir I'm wrong here but I'm a little confused. According to Arik the Thunder Warriors were culled in last battle of the Unification Wars so that the emperor was the sole victor. But weren't the legions introduced during the Unification Wars? So which was the 'last battle'? Is this ANOTHER inconsistency in Outcast Dead (I'm nearly 100% that was a dream novel)? Or am I mis-remembering?

[Greyall]

Either the Space Marine Legions wiped them, the Custodes did...or the Emperor did it by himself...

 

Though I was under the impression the SM Legions didn't know what had been the fate of the Thunder Warriors. Maybe it's knowledge reserved for the higher echelons and Terran veterans.

[Kol Saresk]

Correct Meir I'm wrong here but I'm a little confused. According to Arik the Thunder Warriors were culled in last battle of the Unification Wars so that the emperor was the sole victor. But weren't the legions introduced during the Unification Wars? So which was the 'last battle'? Is this ANOTHER inconsistency in Outcast Dead (I'm nearly 100% that was a dream novel)? Or am I mis-remembering?

It's the "last great battle" to Unify Terra. Every battle afterwards was basically "clean up". And yes, according to Arik Taranis, and so far only Arik Taranis, the Thunder Warriors were culled.

 

Chaplain ChonkE, re-read my post. There's an important line you missed.