Scars Episode XI Updated 16/10 (Spoilers)

[b1soul]

-Curze's end comes from the Lion instead of M' Shen

 

Aaron did give us the next "best" thing,,,the Lion utterly defeated Curze in their second encounter. I would say Curze definitely seemed on the verge of winning their first encounter though

[Scribe]

Though with Vulkan Lives, it starts to become apparent (to me...) that Curze is testing fate. He wants to subvert what he 'knows' to be his destiny. Regardless, yes, the Lion certainly would appear to have taken Curze out in a serious way at the start of Prince of Crows, and Vulkan smashed Curze in Vulkan Lives. He's turning into a bit of a punching bag...

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

AD-B has a post somewhere discussing the duel in Savage Weapons and how it was designed to highlight the difference between the Legions, in that Corswain is willing to lay his life down for Jonson whereas Sevatar doesn't even care.

 

He also mentions that Jonson was going to brain Curze with a rock...or that he might have done so.

 

EDIT: If Curze wants to die in Vulkan Lives, then ofc he will get trashed. But remember that Curze is a stalker/brawler/coward. A straight up fight is not his way of fighting. He will fight you one on one if he has all the advantages, ie: superior numbers, armour, weapons etc. Jonson is a martial expert, probably in the top 5 Primarchs in a duel, and he shows that in both duels. Its only when Curze jumps him he starts winning, and in the second duel Curze never gets the chance...also, Curze runs from Jonson on the Invincible Reason during Prince of Crows dooming the entire First Company of the Night Lords. Curze is a coward.

[Kol Saresk]

True, and yet not true. Look at how the Lion beat Curze in the second duel. He used the whole "death by a thousand cuts" method. You only use that when you have to wear down an opponent, or you're a sadist. In other words, Curze is able to put up enough of a fight that the Lion had to resort to wearing him down rather than fighting offensively and dealing in a few killing blows. Curze might have only been a dirty brawler, but he did have a chance.

 

Also, you're missing the motivation behind why Curze ran.

 

Prince of Crows, pages 405-406

 

They didn't have the Primarch. That much he knew for certain. His surviving brothers spoke of it - of the Dark Angels' final overwhelming assault - and Lord Curze at last realizing the odds sweeping his sons into early graves.

 

He'd turned from the Lion in that moment, turned from the battle... and fled.

 

Curze didn't run out of cowardice, or rather not from cowardice of fighting. He ran out of shame because he had condemned so many of his sons to death and he realized it, but didn't want to face it. If you want to call him a coward for that, go ahead but there isn't a Primarch yet who hasn't run away from some kind of emotional trauma at some point in their history. Maybe Guilliman, but that's it.

 

Also, I have to point out that the Atramentar are not the entirety of the First Company, they are simply the Terminators of the First Company. And, the fact that they make it to the Shattering of Tsagualsa(when the Primogenitors come after the Night Lords), would suggest that not only are they wiped out, but they make it to a century after the Heresy, and well beyond since some are present in 40K.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

fair point, I don't have a copy of Prince of Crows currently, all I can remember is Jonson came and he ran.

[b1soul]

 

Sevatar doesn't even care.

 

It's only when Curze jumps him he starts winning, and in the second duel Curze never gets the chance...also, Curze runs from Jonson on the Invincible Reason during Prince of Crows dooming the entire First Company of the Night Lords. Curze is a coward.

 

 

Prince of Crows kinda shows that Sevatar does care though

 

To me, it seems rather apparent that the Lion takes Curze lightly in their first fight. The guy doesn't go for a killing blow with his initial surprise attack, and then he proceeds to talk a lot of smack as he does fancy moves

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I should probably have said care less...or at least highlights that the Night Lords in general care less about their Primarch than the Dark Angels. Corswain ditches his own Captain, his brother in arms and probably one of his closest friends in the Legion to go save Jonson whereas neither of the 2 Night Lords would leave the fight to save Curze.

[grand_master85]

Well, we appear to have gone from the Night of the Wolf incident, and now we're discussing possibly the second most talked/debated/argued about subject; the fight in Savage Weapons, and who actually won or lost. What's worse is, neither the Night Lords nor the Dark Angels are even in Scars (well, yet...).

 

Let's keep it back on track, guys. Too many posts of late in the HH section seem to be coming back to the Night Lords!

[Greyall]

The irony being Jonson isn't exactly a father to his Legionnaires either...

 

On Curze vs Jonson: one has a longsword, the other a pair of scythed gloves, they're wearing a perfect counter for each other's weapon, with Jonson having the advantage of reach.

 

I do wonder where will Curze be going now and where will he be when the Siege of Terra takes place. I do think the fluff is open enough for BL to inject 250cc of awesomeness into that final battle and deliver a few glorious Primarch on Primarch/Champion on Champion/Primarch on hundreds of Marines moments.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

The irony being Jonson isn't exactly a father to his Legionnaires either...

 

Yep. The DA are all about loyalty and honour to liege lords...I think its the reason that the Fallen betrayal has such repercussions on the Legion. They don't need a father figure, they want a liege. Its not about love for him as a father, but towards him as their Lord and Master. Which, in turn, is reflected in the relationship between the Emperor and Lion.

 

One fight I would love to see is Khan and Motarian, two loners and who clash so obviously over the question of pyskers. The match up would be interesting.

[Greyall]

Hmm, I think you're romanticizing a matter which is uncomfortable for many a Dark Angel.

 

This actually provides a way for us to steer back to the Scars:

 

The Lion: A lord to his Marines. Calls them 'little brothers' yet doesn't really act remotely like [a caring] one. Makes obscure decisions which leave his Legionnaires dumbfounded. Is a little brusque sometimes but all Primarchs are in times of stress.

 

The Khan: A lord to his Marines. Seems to view them as his warriors and brothers-in-arms. Fiercely independent, so he doesn't seem too close to his men, but is viewed as an example and the pinnacle of the Legion's philosophy.

 

Interestingly, while the Khan seems to have a healthier relationship (and reputation) with his brothers and his Marines alike, being all comfortable with his solitude, both will suffer a schism within their Legions, the Lion because he shunned his men and they weren't strong enough to fight jealousy, the Khan because he made his Scars to be independent, so they went behind his back and decided to support Horus.

[High MarshalGR]

 

The irony being Jonson isn't exactly a father to his Legionnaires either...

 

Yep. The DA are all about loyalty and honour to liege lords...I think its the reason that the Fallen betrayal has such repercussions on the Legion. They don't need a father figure, they want a liege. Its not about love for him as a father, but towards him as their Lord and Master. Which, in turn, is reflected in the relationship between the Emperor and Lion.

 

True to an extent, but the DA's loyalty is there for itself. As long as they do have it towards a value or a person, they defend it. On the other hand, I think the Lion wasn't like "Hey, I have a father! Let's be loyal to him and never stop being loyal!" since he was too smart for that. There is something more: Loyalty to the desired lord (the lord he chooses to offer his loyalty to). That sounds better.

 

As far as Curze goes, he is a psycho after all. There is a limit to his reasoning skill, to his honor, to his emotions. His limit is the chaos he has within, which probably comes from his two (at least) personalities: Batman Curze vs Joker Curze. 

[Wade Garrett]

True to an extent, but the DA's loyalty is there for itself. As long as they do have it towards a value or a person, they defend it. On the other hand, I think the Lion wasn't like "Hey, I have a father! Let's be loyal to him and never stop being loyal!" since he was too smart for that.

 

Given that the last time we saw Lion ("The Primarchs") he was beheading his own Astartes on a whim while basing important decisions on conversations with himself in a dark room, I don't think the Dark Angels are in any position to throw stones at the Night Lords vis a vis "Ha ha your daddy is a crazy man".

[gogmagog]

Please please please, can this thread be left for the Scars book.

[grand_master85]

Please please please, can this thread be left for the Scars book.

I agree with this. This thread keeps getting high jacked by year more discussions regarding subjects that are not relevant to the Scars novel.

 

Keep this on topic please, it's hard to keep on track wit the White Scars information when the last 6 or so pages have been discussing 4 other legions than the Scars

[High MarshalGR]

 

True to an extent, but the DA's loyalty is there for itself. As long as they do have it towards a value or a person, they defend it. On the other hand, I think the Lion wasn't like "Hey, I have a father! Let's be loyal to him and never stop being loyal!" since he was too smart for that.

 

Given that the last time we saw Lion ("The Primarchs") he was beheading his own Astartes on a whim while basing important decisions on conversations with himself in a dark room, I don't think the Dark Angels are in any position to throw stones at the Night Lords vis a vis "Ha ha your daddy is a crazy man".

 

He isn't the best father figure there is. 

 

Back to the Scars, I hope we see some light for Khan, since his up to now presentation is kinda dissapointing me personally.

[Greyall]

Dissappointing? How so, mate?

[Emperor's Furor]

For what's it's worth I've been pleasantly surprised to see a figure that isn't as ferocious, flamboyant or over the top compared to the relevant Primarchs he's usually been compared to like Russ (barbarian) or Fulgrim (great swordsmen). 

[Greyall]

Aye. While he's not necessarily a nice guy or a relatable character and is much less loyal than I expected him to be, I like what we've seen so far, it's really interesting.

[Daddywarcrimes]

I kind of like that while the Lion gets all the grief about how loyal he really way, it's turning out that the Khan was the one on the knife's edge of turning against the Emperor.  This might be one of the few times that I wished I didn't know how the Heresy turns out.

[b1soul]

Has any mention been made of the White Scars first captain?

[Stonerhino]

The ending of Scars VIII has been the first time I have wanted to throw my monitor across the room.  For telling me there was no more...  Is it next wednesday yet??? 

[High MarshalGR]

Dissappointing? How so, mate?

 

 

I'll tell you how I mean dissapointing. He is an interesting character, I do like that he lacks focus, but he seems to me like they are trying to present the "misunderstood" badass type of guy, who is seen in other Primarchs as well. I would like him to be like the stample I think of when it comes to Asian warriors (Zhao Yun from Dynasty Warriors, Xin Zhao from LoL) or something in this lines. The diehard loyal Primarchs are counted in the fingers of one hand anyway, so I would like to see an addition to them with some Asian influence. Interesting, he is. What I would like the most to see, he isn't. He talks and acts in his little comfort zone, and outside of it his "cool" one-liners aren't so great. But he keeps this zone up and running. Nice character overally, he is. 

[Greyall]

I say, WoTman, can we get some spoilers? =)

[Entei]

 

Spoilers for the story Rebirth by Chris Wraight: So the Khan is on his way to Prospero. Anyone else think that the Khan will meet the Khârn there? And possibly rescue Arvida...