Rune Priests and Psychic Nulls

[Angel of Solitude]

When reading the Eisenhorn and Ravenor series, it's established that traditional psykers suffer in the presense of pyschic nulls. Likewise, we see the effect that the Sisters of Silence had on the 1k Sons during the attack on Prospero.

 

I appreciate that my questions may be slighly provokative, but do we have any insight as to how Rune Priests are affected by pyschic nulls, and were there any Rune Priests involved in the attack of Prospero?

 

The thinking behind the questions is that if Rune Priests are affected in the same way, then that would make their powers little different from that of Librarians.

[Greyall]

There are Rune Priests involved in the attack on Prospero, yes, though we only see one, Ahriman's nemesis, Wyrdmake.

 

Runepriests' powers are exactly the same as those of the other Astartes, it's just that they manifest their powers in 'shamanistic' ways, creating bolts of lightning, blizzards, spiritual wolves. So the whole Legion sees them as being able to harness the powers and elements of Fenris. But it's exactly the same type of power a blue fire-spewing Ultramarines Librarian has.

 

I actually don't know if the Edict of Nikea applied to the Space Wolves, but I'm assuming so. Still, seeing as the attack on Prospero was close to it, no Legion had the time to adapt, I think.

[Wade Garrett]

The Wolves *thought* Nikea didn't apply to their Rune Priests, who use "nature spirits of Fenris", not that maleficarum the Librarians fling around. According to every non Wolf, this is bunk, Ahriman (who knows a thing or two about that warp sorcery stuff) tells Wyrdmake that their powers are exactly the same in their final confrontation.

[godking]

The Wolves *thought* Nikea didn't apply to their Rune Priests, who use "nature spirits of Fenris", not that maleficarum the Librarians fling around. According to every non Wolf, this is bunk, Ahriman (who knows a thing or two about that warp sorcery stuff) tells Wyrdmake that their powers are exactly the same in their final confrontation.

Ahriman killing Wyrdmake is one of my favorite moments in the series.

 

Wyrdmake was easily the most unlikable dishonest hypocritical scumbag of the entire series.

[Greyall]

In all fairness, though, he very much believed his powers to be different.

[Kol Saresk]

When reading the Eisenhorn and Ravenor series, it's established that traditional psykers suffer in the presense of pyschic nulls. Likewise, we see the effect that the Sisters of Silence had on the 1k Sons during the attack on Prospero.

 

I appreciate that my questions may be slighly provokative, but do we have any insight as to how Rune Priests are affected by pyschic nulls, and were there any Rune Priests involved in the attack of Prospero?

As pointed out there were indeed Rune Priests at Prospero. They will have been affected the same way the KSons Librarians were. In A Thousand Sons, we see this translated as pockets in the battlefield were the KSons were unable to use or project their powers into.

 

The thinking behind the questions is that if Rune Priests are affected in the same way, then that would make their powers little different from that of Librarians.

Exactly. There is no true difference. The Rune Priests simply manifest their powers in a different manner, as pointed out by Greyall.

 

And as also previously pointed out, the Wolves honestly believed their powers were different, as evidenced by Wyrdmake's testimony at the Conference at Nikea.

 

The Edict dissolved the Librariums and demanded that the Librarians were to lose their ranks and privileges and never use their powers again. The problem we always get into with "Rune Priests vs Librarians" is semantics. Because the Emperor specifically says Librarians, it is taken that since the Rune Priests are exempt as "they are not Librarians", even though they fulfill similar purposes on the battlefield.

 

The other thing we run into is that in Fear to Tread, we find out that the Wolves know they walk a very, very, very thin line as they try to hide the psychic potential of one of their brothers from the Blood Angels because they know the BA would '"mistaken" the Rune Priest for a Librarian. Which means that even the Wolves acknowledge a strong commonality between the two.

[Wade Garrett]

For whatever it's worth, I agree that the Wolves sincerely believed their powers were different and the Emperor didn't intend to ban them at Nikea.

 

In much the same way the Word Bearers sincerely believed worshipping the Emperor was what he wanted, Night Lords like Sahaal and Talos thought the Emperor signed off on their atrocities, so on, so forth.

[Angel of Solitude]

Thanks for the replies. Garrett I think you are absolutely correct - the Wolves genuinely believed that the source of their power was very different to that of the "sorcerers", and so were not subject to the risk of things going bad if the use of their power was left unchecked.

 

Kol_Saresk - having just re-read the Emperor's judgement at Nikaea, it does specifically refer to Librarians and the Librarius functions which helpfully includes the Blood Angels, 1k Sons and Word Bearers, and conveniently excludes the Space Wolves. Semantics is exactly what it is when we see Rune Priests still using their powers, there is now no question of that. They draw from the warp in exactly the same way, but because they are not "Librarians", then they are not subject to the edict of Nikaea.

 

Given what subsequently happens, it's difficult not to conclude that the Emperor made a massive balls-up when it came to Nikaea - you basically remove the entire identity and raison d'etre for a whole Astartes legion, and so it's hardly surprising that they reacted like they did. Surely the Emperor would have anticipated that?

 

I recently read a 40k book (I forget the name) which was based in an astropathic listening centre. All of the astropaths were essentially man-marked by somebody who was responsible for killing them at the first sign that they were succumbing to the power of the warp. We know that during the Heresy, the role of the chaplain was essentially to enforce the Edict of Nikaea, with a death sentence being the punishment for using warp powers. However, perhaps a better implementation would have been for he chaplains to take on the role of watchman, only taking action when it appears a fellow Astartes has finally succombed to the powers of the warp? Essentially this is what the 1k Sons were doing to their own when they were subject to the flesh change, and ironically it is Leman Russ who ultimately plays the role of Chaplain when he blasts the 1K Son in the chest.

 

I see this as a better solution, and given the power of the Emperor, I can't understand why he wouldn't have followed this approach. Unless of course he knew exactly what the consequences were going to be,. Perhaps he thought that Magnus' subsequent intervention with Horus would be successsful, and being confined to Prospero was a pre-requisite for this to happen?

[Greyall]

Though the Emperor was overprotective in implementing Nikaea and regarding the Warp in general (or was he? we know it's Chaos who poses the greatest threat, and 40K humans are losing that war), he was genuinely betrayed regarding Magnus. Not only was Big Red duped into delivering a message through a warp-travelling tomahawk that shattered the Webway's shields, Horus used Russ' prejudices to further his plans, when the Emperor probably saw what was to come and wanted to aprehend Magnus, most likely to keep a closer eye on him and hatch as close a plan as his initial one of having Magnus watch over the Webway.

[daveNYC]

Though the Emperor was overprotective in implementing Nikaea and regarding the Warp in general (or was he? we know it's Chaos who poses the greatest threat, and 40K humans are losing that war), he was genuinely betrayed regarding Magnus. Not only was Big Red duped into delivering a message through a warp-travelling tomahawk that shattered the Webway's shields, Horus used Russ' prejudices to further his plans, when the Emperor probably saw what was to come and wanted to aprehend Magnus, most likely to keep a closer eye on him and hatch as close a plan as his initial one of having Magnus watch over the Webway.

 

Wanting to have Magnus brought back to Terra is a no brainer.  After Magnus borked up the entire webway project in the Emperor's basement, the big guy had to spend the rest of the Heresy sitting on the throne keeping the gate shut.  Grab Magnus, sit him down on the throne and tell him to make up for things by keeping it shut, and all of a sudden you've got a Heresy where the Emperor is able to play an active role.  That's a Heresy where Horus gets beaten like a rented mule.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, the whole event was a Blunderbuss with a capital B.

 

And for semantics, well the Edict apparently says that Chaplains were in charge of keeping their psyker brothers in line. But then you get the Wardens. Who do the exact same thing.

 

And IIRC, the White Scars' Librarians went by a different title, they were called Stormseers I think. But they disbanded too. And there was the fact that the SW knew enough of the "commonalities" between a Rune Priest and a Librarian that they knew that the other Legion wonder why the Wolves were "breaking the Edict."

 

To be honest, the semantics is a very thin ice. An analogy would be if everyone had apples. The Emperor thought it was too dangerous. So, while pointing at the KSons Red Apples, He said "I never want to see those again!" The Wolves, who had Green Apples, think they're okay because their Apples aren't Red and surely the Allfather was only talking about the Red ones. There's a huge difference between a Red Apple and a Green Apple! They might as well be Apples and Oranges.

 

But then you get the White Scars. They have Golden Apples. And when they heard the Edict, the obeyed along with the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Salamanders and Ultramarines, who all had Red Apples.

 

The semantics gets muddled very fast when something like that happens. Especially when the Stormseers are very similar to the shamanistic ways of the Rune Priests.

[Greyall]

Although the Scars, even with Golden Apples, did defend everyone's rights to have their apples, regardless of variety, pretty much aligning themselves and setting the Legion up for consequences in case apples were deemed too dangerous - which ended up happening.

[Kol Saresk]

Exactly. But then you get the Wolves who say their Green Apples are superior and are a different fruit altogether, like Oranges.

 

Oh, also something else I remembered. Both the Blood Angels and White Scars were supporters of the Librarius project. And yet the White Scars ignored semantics and there is that "mistaken identity" from Fear to Tread again. I kind of want to see what would happen if a 30K Stormseer ran into a 30K Rune Priest.

[The Broker]

It's prob worth pointing out that Wolf Priests have roles within the Space Wolves that don't require Psychic powers -  they're in charge of preserving the legion's oral history iirc.

 

Not sure if the original librarius's had his same duty, but if so, it would explain why the Rune Priests weren't disbanded (even though it doesn't justify them continually breaking the Edict of Nikea by using their psychic powers).

[Greyall]

For "regular" - and, I'd say, most - Chapters, Librarians are indeed in charge of gathering and organizing information.

 

I don't want to pour any more gasoline into the fire, but the Wolves being allowed to keep their psykers legitimately allows for one to suspect it's their nature as executioners that allows them such an exception. And the fact they try to mask them in Fear to Tread only adds to the suspicion.

[Kol Saresk]

It's prob worth pointing out that Wolf Priests have roles within the Space Wolves that don't require Psychic powers -  they're in charge of preserving the legion's oral history iirc.

 

Not sure if the original librarius's had his same duty, but if so, it would explain why the Rune Priests weren't disbanded (even though it doesn't justify them continually breaking the Edict of Nikea by using their psychic powers).

However it is also worth pointing out the Stormseers also had other duties. For one part, they apparently played a role in selecting new recruits and they also seem to have a role in helping new Astartes acclimate to being a White Scar, such as forgetting tribal rivalry.

 

But like Greyall said, this is a thin line.

[daveNYC]

For "regular" - and, I'd say, most - Chapters, Librarians are indeed in charge of gathering and organizing information.

 

I don't want to pour any more gasoline into the fire, but the Wolves being allowed to keep their psykers legitimately allows for one to suspect it's their nature as executioners that allows them such an exception. And the fact they try to mask them in Fear to Tread only adds to the suspicion.

 

Bringing up the 'executioner' topic is more like pouring liquid oxygen laced with plutonium on a fire.  Are they allowed an exception, are they carving an exception out for themselves, or do they not think of it as an exception because the rule never applied to their green apples in the first place?

 

Same goes for the executioner label.  Are they officially?  Did they earn the label at some point in their history?  Or do they call themselves that because they just think they're that bad-ass?

[Wade Garrett]

If we want to play that game:

 

Were the Wolves "allowed" to keep their psykers or did they just pull a XII Legion and ignore Nikea with no consequences at all?

[Greyall]

Exactly.

 

Although, maybe the simplest answer is that they've always considered themselves exceptions to the Imperium's rules. Blatant exceptions.

[Blacksad]

Nikea was vs the librarius program set up by the sons, in which the wolves had no part. they never had a thousand sons psycher teaching the rune priests about sorcery, but stuck to their own way of doing stuff

 

 

the eddict of nikea was more in the lines of: There's mages in the world. most went to school there. that school now appears to be corrupted, and teaching it's students naughty and dangerous methods. It's no longer allowed. those SW there though, they learnt it from their aunty, that weirdlooking old lady with her potions and salves and funny little spells. Sure, she uses the same winds of magic, but she's not making deals with daemons or anything... 

 

that was the biggest problem imo: making deals with those warp entities is the mo of the Thousand Sons. Those Warp entities are the ones we're ultimatly at war with. 
The idiots making deals with our enemy are now teaching all our soldiers capable of defeating the enemy to make deals with the enemy... :-/

[Wade Garrett]

Ah-hem.

 

According to the Ragnar Blackmane novels there are full blown Tzeencht cults on Fenris. Suuuure the Fenrisian shamanistic traditions are immune to corruption and demonology.

 

And if you believe that I have a bridge in Nova Yoruk I'd like to sell you.

[RapatoR]

Eh I was under impression that Scars kept their Stormseers after Nikea...

[Kol Saresk]

May I ask for a source on that? My White Scars-fluffy-fu is pretty weak, but since the Khan was one of three pro-Librarius Primarchs(alongside Sanguinius and Magnus) and one of his own Stormseers just said that terminology was all that separated a Stormseer from the Librarians, it would seem highly hypocritical to go "I'll stand with you until the end. And then I'll use semantics to leave you in the dust." Of course, the Stormseers did have secondary roles, so maybe their capacity as a Librarian was dropped while they kept up with their secondary duties, such as the initiates and indoctrination.

[RapatoR]

Well I assumed they were kept from Brotherhood of storm as well as from discussion in Scars topic, since Stormseers were mentioned, but it is probable that, as you suggest, they stopped using them as Librarians and kept them for other roles.

[Grimtooth]

Kol, you conviently forget that Stormseers were in fact librarians in description and in training. They adopted the Magnus created Librariums and adopted those 'tainted" teachings. Whatever the Stormseers were before they implemented Magnus' Librarium program, they were not that after.