Rune Priests and Psychic Nulls

[Grimtooth]

 

 

 

Though the Emperor was overprotective in implementing Nikaea and regarding the Warp in general (or was he? we know it's Chaos who poses the greatest threat, and 40K humans are losing that war), he was genuinely betrayed regarding Magnus. Not only was Big Red duped into delivering a message through a warp-travelling tomahawk that shattered the Webway's shields, Horus used Russ' prejudices took further his plans, when the Emperor probably saw what was to come and wanted to aprehend Magnus, most likely to keep a closer eye on him and hatch as close a plan as his initial one of having Magnus watch over the Webway.

Wanting to have Magnus brought back to Terra is a no brainer. After Magnus borked up the entire webway project in the Emperor's basement, the big guy had to spend the rest of the Heresy sitting on the throne keeping the gate shut. Grab Magnus, sit him down on the throne and tell him to make up for things by keeping it shut, and all of a sudden you've got a Heresy where the Emperor is able to play an active role. That's a Heresy where Horus gets beaten like a rented mule.

What makes you think that putting a primarch with a literal blood debt to Tzneetch in charge of stopping a daemonic incursion on Terra is a good idea?

[depthcharge12]

Maybe the wolves of Fenris just forget about the edict sometimes.

 

I mean all that drinking leads to some brain damage. Especially if theyre drinking everclear watered down with god knows what in their beer.

 

Just because their livers can  handle it doesnt mean their brains cant :D

 

I can imagine a drunk rune priest throwing around spells...

 

All that drinking must lead to a new minor warp god of drinking: Lord Inebrius the tipsy

 

Beer for the beer god! kegs for the keg stand!!!

[Blacksad]

Ah-hem.

 

According to the Ragnar Blackmane novels there are full blown Tzeencht cults on Fenris. Suuuure the Fenrisian shamanistic traditions are immune to corruption and demonology.

 

And if you believe that I have a bridge in Nova Yoruk I'd like to sell you.

oh my! did I state somewhere that the fenrisian shamanistic traditions are immune to corruption? Did I at any one point claim there were never any Tzeentchians on Fenris? (yeah, that battle of the Fang thing? never happened...)

if you've read those Ragnar novels, you'd also know that Tzeencht cult were 1k Sons, not SW. stragglers from one of their many attempts at taking out the SW.

 

thank you oh great and powerfull omniscient master of...

 

:cuss it, sarcasm only goes so far before becomming utterly stupid. and about that bridge: it's not yours to sell. I'll see you in court about that one.

[Kol Saresk]

Kol, you conviently forget that Stormseers were in fact librarians in description and in training. They adopted the Magnus created Librariums and adopted those 'tainted" teachings. Whatever the Stormseers were before they implemented Magnus' Librarium program, they were not that after.

According to Lexicanum, Rune Priests are Librarians too. Just because it has a bill and lays eggs, it don't mean its a duck. Could be a platypus.

 

Also, their more shamanastic approaches are littered throughout the Index Astartes as well as their duties in selecting initiates, indoctrinating initiates and, after the Khan disappears, choosing the next Great Khan to lead the tribes of Chogoris. And that was after the Librarius program was developed.

 

Meanwhile, in the Space Wolves, the Wolf Priests are in charge of choosing applicants and indoctrinating them, while the Rune Priests are in charge of the Space Wolves' librarium and store of knowledge. And the fact that they claim their powers are not psychic in nature, actually puts them closer to the definition of a sorcerer in 40K than just the standard Librarian as sorcery in 40K is being able to use the power of the warp(my mistake, "the mighty power of Fenris herself") without using psychic abilities.

 

I "conveniently" forgot nothing. I pointed out at least once that the Stormseers considered themselves to be Librarians and that if anything, the arguing of semantics becomes null and void when someone who could have went "Well, we aren't called Librarians and we do have separate duties than you" considers themselves to be part of the discussion.

 

The Librarians are not solely Magnus' babies. The KSons are the only ones we see walking around with warp familiars. The only ones. Magnus helped to create the Librarius program and some of his Librarians went to some of the Legions in an attempt to help form the various Librarius' units. Considering the KSons Librarians are the only ones who appear so esoteric and "magely" implies that while more than a few Legions accepted the training, not all of them adopted every single practice. As one of the Legions who "helped write the very book on Librariuses[/i], the White Scars would have no need of a representative and would not need to dramatically change what they are doing.

 

And yet, even they thought they were included in the statement "All Librarians must vow to never use their powers again under penalty of death."

 

So again, it comes to semantics.

[Blacksad]

yeah, and according to wikipedia, Justin Bieber is a singer...

 

Rune Priests are Psychers too, not librarians.

[DarthMarko]

I think this is the most important part - RP know about warp and all that crap but they think they have more control over it...And they don't distance themself from librarians just 1k sons and their deamonic pets....

 

 

‘There is a vast gulf between what I employ
for the good of the Rout and what you practise, warlock,’ Helwintr replied, ‘and the chief part of that gulf is
control. Only the naive would think that mankind could survive in the cosmos
without some measure of craft and cunning to protect him, but there is a limit.
A limit. We must know what we can master and what we cannot, and we must never
allow ourselves to step beyond that line. Tell me, how many steps have you
taken? One? Three? A dozen? A thousand?’

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also bare in mind that RP do recruiting, controling the wulfen and runic painting :-)

[Kol Saresk]

Well, according to Lexicanum,

Wolf Priests combine the roles of Chaplains and Apothecaries within the Space Wolves chapter, being responsible for both the spiritual and physical well-being of their fellows[1a].

 

They are selected from any part of the chapter but usually from the Long Fangs or Wolf Guard due to the greater wisdom of these marines. Instead of using Codex medical equipment, Wolf Priests use healing potions and balms, using knowledge passed down from one Wolf Priest to the next[4].

 

Wolf Priests are also almost entirely responsible for the recruitment of aspirants to the chapter, selecting them from the hardy native warriors of Fenris. Commonly garbed with wolf totems, including wolf-skull shaped helmets, they can often be seen observing battles from nearby vantage points, ready to select suitable candidates for the Space Wolves from the survivors. The Priests are often the only Space Wolves these tribesmen ever see, and are regarded as god-like figures[1a].

I don't have a 5th Edition Codex: Space Wolves so I can't confirm if that is really on pages 35 and 50, but I can confirm that in the Ragnar novels, the Wolf Priest was the one who recruit Ragnar and everyone who went with him to the Fang.

 

 

 

I'm really not trying to get back into whole Rune Priest Priest vs Librarian argument, I'm just trying to state facts.

 

The Emperor said that Librarians cannot use their powers after the Edict of Nikea.

 

Stormseers consider themselves to be similar enough to Librarians that, as far as I know, they believed the Edict pertained to them, at least where their powers were concerned, if not their station which is different from the duties of the standard Librarian in that they are in charge of the recruits.

 

Rune Priests, and by extension the Space Wolves, believe that the methods and beliefs of the Rune Priests are enough of a difference that they were not included in the Edict. However, they also apparently realize that the other Legions see enough of a similarity that openly broadcasting the powers of a Rune Priest can cause troubles.

 

Those are the facts. Anything after that completely becomes theory and debate and will remain so until something is definitively published that states the Emperor's thoughts on whether or not he included the all Astartes psykers in his Edict, or just those who were "Librarians".

[RapatoR]

Also Stormseers were with Scars from their very foundation (BoS mentions psyker that is found by Khan prior the emperor finds him. Accordin to novella Khan has calming effect on psycher and he later becomes Stormseer.)

[Blacksad]

"Hear now the words of my ruling.

I am not blind to the needs of the Imperium, but nor am I blind to the realities of the hearts of men. I hear men speak of knowledge and power as though they are abstract concepts to be employed as simply as a sword or gun. They are not. Power is a living force, and the danger with power is obsession. A man who attains a measure of power will find it comes to dominate his life until all he can think of is the acquisition of more. Nearly all men can stand adversity, but few can stand the ultimate test of character, that of wielding power without succumbing to its darker temptations.

Peering into the darkness to gain knowledge of the Warp is fraught with peril, for it is an inconstant place of shifting reality, capricious lies and untruths. The seeker after truth must have a care he is not deceived, for false knowledge is far more dangerous than ignorance. All men wish to possess knowledge, but few are willing to pay the price. Always men will seek to take the short cut, the quick route to power, and it is a man’s own mind, not his enemy or foe, that will lure him to evil ways. True knowledge is gained only after the acquisition of wisdom. Without wisdom, a powerful person does not become more powerful, he becomes reckless. His power will turn on him and eventually destroy all he has built.

I have walked paths no man can know and faced the unnameable creatures of the Warp. I understand all too well the secrets and dangers that lurk in its hidden darkness. Such things are not for lesser minds to know; no matter how powerful or knowledgeable they believe themselves to be. The secrets I have shared serve as warnings, not enticements to explore further. Only death and damnation await those who pry too deeply into secrets not meant for mortals.

I see now I have allowed my sons to delve too profoundly into matters I should never have permitted them to know even existed. Let it be known that no one shall suffer censure, for this conclave is to serve Unity, not discord. But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light."




There are few things that are "standard" about the Sons of Leman Russ, and so it is no surprise that they treat their psykers differently than the rest of the Adeptus Astartes. The Space Wolves do not have Librarians or even a Librarium, scorning such dusty and lifeless collections of knowledge. Instead they adhere to the ancient Fenrisian traditions of their ancestors, and those with psychic gifts become Rune Priests—skalds and storytellers who keep the Chapter’s practices and history alive through millennia-old oral traditions. While Rune Priests use their own powers and train in their own way, they function much as other Space Marine Librarians do, tapping into the Warp and drawing forth power to create psychic effects and reshape reality.



Rune Priest Njal Stormcaller - While not officially a Librarian, Njal Stormcaller serves the Space Wolves Chapter as their most senior Rune Priest, the non-standard Chapter's closest equivalent. Njal earned his surname for his ability to summon potent storms through the power of his mind and the observation of the most ancient of Fenrisian shamanistic rituals.

 

taken from the Warhammer40k.wikia

[Kol Saresk]

Like I said, it becomes a debate of semantics, methods and beliefs.

[Blacksad]

Emp told everyone to stop with their librarius program. SW never started one, so there wasn't one to stop.

[GhostMalone]

In other words any use of warpcraft sorcery or not is banned so the space wolves are as guilty as the thousand sons blood angels white scars and every other legion employing a librarius devision.

[GhostMalone]

It's not necessarily the librarius it's the use of the powers within the astrates. He doesn't want temptation or anything to derail the legions. Doesn't matter where the source comes from, just because your a space wolf doesn't mean your power is from fenris, everything stems from the warp

[Blacksad]

there is no "in other words". the words of the Emperor are RAW and right there.

 

"But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers."

 

if our beloved all-father, the emperor of mankind, had wanted our Rune Priests to stop what they were doing, he would have worded it differently.

[Kol Saresk]

Emp told everyone to stop with their librarius program. SW never started one, so there wasn't one to stop.

Bit they still have a Librarium. They just happen to be the storage medium.

 

Again, semantics. The Stormseers are never directly called librarians. And nowhere in the IA article are they ever referred to as being part of a Librarius. And yet......

 

So like I said, it is an ever-continuing, never-resolving debate on semantics, methods and beliefs.

 

Some people thought they were included and others didn't. It is as simple as that. And there will never be a resolution until something is published from the Emperor's point of view saying what he meant by "Librarian". Or someone who is a neutral, unbiased third party who has witnessed said definition.

 

Which there will most likely never be.

[GhostMalone]

Damn space wolves there like the annoying difficult cousin that constantly manipulates your words to get away with murder.

 

Us WE just don't listen

[depthcharge12]

Damn space wolves there like the annoying difficult cousin that constantly manipulates your words to get away with murder.

 

Us WE just don't listen

 

Screw being special snowflakes.

 

We just dont give two feths.

[Blacksad]

oh go back to the eye of terror and cry to your primarchs, you babies. there has been no manipulation of words by me. in this instance.

[depthcharge12]

oh go back to the eye of terror and cry to your primarchs, you babies. there has been no manipulation of words by me. in this instance.

 

Lol Russ is in the eye too

[Blacksad]

don't think he'll comfort you when you go crying to him though... :P

[depthcharge12]

don't think he'll comfort you when you go crying to him though...

Hmm...he might have gone to go cry to khorne :P

his armor is in front of his alter

[RapatoR]

Kol, you conviently forget that Stormseers were in fact librarians in description and in training. They adopted the Magnus created Librariums and adopted those 'tainted" teachings. Whatever the Stormseers were before they implemented Magnus' Librarium program, they were not that after.

Ok we have been through this before but: there is zero evidence that Librarium program was tainted. We know that 1. they were restored during/after heresy and 2. legions using librarians had much easier time fighting deamons and that strongly suggests they were not tainted.

Even Guiliman (most loyal primarch which is a true mirror of Emperor, so you can expect his thoughts will closely reflect Emperors thoughts) says something among lines: disbanding Librarians was a mistake.

 

There is no evidence that Stormseers somehow magically changed when they implemented Librarium program, no quote, nothing that would say: after adopting Librarius program ways of Stormseers changed. That is pure speculation.

 

Also there is zero evidence that they adopted teachings of Thousand sons since: "The Stormseers believe that their powers are connected to the animistic spirits of the land and the air..." This is not what TS would teach you. In fact it seems like something that Rune priest would teach you.

 

BoS suggests Stormseers existed prior Librarius program and creating it was a purely formal event for them, they ackonwledged their "psykerness".

 

EDIT: And while ago we had A D-B here (which is guy with acess to other BL authors and GW IP) who explicitly stated that Emps meant to dissolve all Space Marine psykers within all legions, SW included, so that debate is resolved.

[GhostMalone]

Iirc there were psykers in the legions before the librarius, it was implemented as a formal thing by sang the Khârn Magnus and lorgar.

 

It wasn't about taint it was about the risk of the warp infecting legionaries, the legions were then sanctioned which benefitted the traitors agenda as there would be harder times tracing warp connections if the loyalist psykers were blinded by oaths.

 

It doesn't matter if your powers are from spirit or the earth all psychic facets and traits originate from the warp.

 

Stormseers and rune priests are essentially drawing on the warp if even indirectly whereas the thousand sons go straight to the source.

 

At the end of it all its not a matter of ohh it's okay because he didn't say the words rune priests or space wolves. The only psychics allowed within the imperium were navigators astropaths and such.

 

The legions were forbidden from ouiji boards wolf knuckles or tarot. Anything related to the warp was banned even for the primarchs

[Blacksad]

there is no need for evidence that the librarium program was tainted.

there is also no need to prove that the ways of the stormseers had changed.

there is only a need to consider: Were Storm Seers part of the librarius program? Yes. were the Rune Priests? No.

 

during the counsil at nikaea there were 3 distinct parties

 

1) Magnus, stating it's all good

 

2) a conclave of librarians, among who a Stormseer, stating it ain't all good, but if treated with respect, and taught with enough discipline and mentoring, it'd be a helpfull tool

 

3) a few hardliners against all forms of psychic powers

 

The emperor then made the ruling I have already posted, directed directly at the librarius program started by the Thousand Sons and a few other primarchs.

 

he might have ment all psychers, he SAID all librarians, which included the Stormseers, because they did admit the librarius program into their legion, not the Rune Priests, because the space wolves never admitted the librarius program into their legion.

 

the librarium we have NOW is what that second group of people advocated, and not the librarius that Magnus had started up.

 

 

the, imo, probable reason why he focussed on the librarians is because at that point, he didn't know how influenced the whole project was by the Thousand Sons's sorcery, which was the cause for all this shizzle. Since he didn't know how corrupting the influence of those Thousand Son "mentors" in the other legions had been at that point, he decided to just wrap it all up and minimize the risks.

 

He may or may not have actively knowingly taken the rune priests out of the equasion, but he did. Had it slipped his mind, or was it by design? only he knows, but his exact wording did leave the SW the opportunity to maintain their rune priests as they were.

[depthcharge12]

I would think that by librarians, he means psykers.

 

I mean, what if Magnus just said, " aiight big e, I wont have a librarius, i'll rename my guys rune priests, and they'll 'focus power from Tizca.'"

 

Its the same thing. Just a different name.

 

Plus, how the hell are they focussing fenrisian element powers halfway across the galaxy? seems a little silly unless you think, oh they use the warp since it is prevalent nearly everywhere.