Rune Priests and Psychic Nulls

[RapatoR]

Iirc there were psykers in the legions before the librarius, it was implemented as a formal thing by sang the Khârn Magnus and lorgar.

 

It wasn't about taint it was about the risk of the warp infecting legionaries, the legions were then sanctioned which benefitted the traitors agenda as there would be harder times tracing warp connections if the loyalist psykers were blinded by oaths.

 

Well FtT (and TS too) strongly suggest the Edict was mainly aimed at Magnus and disbanding Librarius was collateral damage/overreaction:

"‘The Emperor did not make his decision lightly, Kano,’ Annellus was saying. ‘But after the actions of Magnus the Red and his Thousand Sons, there was little choice. I know you understand that. (...) The great psyker-primarch Magnus had brought all that to a head with his reckless exploration into the deeper, darker places of the warp, drawing his father’s great displeasure and this draconian response. (...) ‘And what will we say to our battle-brothers when we pass word of this to them? Magnus has looked upon books he should not have read, so now our Librarians must sacrifice themselves? I have two psykers in my company, legionaries I have fought alongside, who I trust! What becomes of them now?’"

 

Blacksad: There was already similar topic, where A D-B chimed in and said that Emps meant Rune prests too. Also Occams razor:

 

Emps forbade psykers and Wolves thought they are exception is way simpler soultion to this than:

 

Emps wanted to SW to keep using their psykers beacuse they were somehow special/better. Despite this he doesn't istruct Librarians from other legions to follow the ways of Rune priests, doesn't replace Librarius program with Rune priest program and doesn't even mentions something like: "Hey look at Rune priests, they are are getting it right." He just disbands Librarians altogedher without giving them chance to learn it the RP way.

 

Also if he believed that Magnus and/or Librarius program were somehow corrupted, wouldn't be Emperor start investigating Magnus/Librarians for evidence of corruption? Why he would allow ponentially corrupted primarch/marines to roam free.

[Kol Saresk]

On the contrary, the Rune Priests did have a Librarius program. It just wasn't one that operated by the training regimes created by the Khan, Magnus and Sanguinius.

 

However, it again becomes SEMANTICS, METHODS, AND BELIEFS. The Storm Seers acknowledge they are psykers. The Rune Priests don't. BUT BOTH RECOGNIZE THAT, at least to outsiders, THEY ARE CONSIDERED LIBRARIANS. SO AGAIN, WE KEEP COMING BACK FULL CIRCLE TO THE WOLVES BELIEVE THEY ARE EXEMPT BECAUSE OF SEMANTICS EVEN THOUGH THEIR RUNE PRIESTS ARE CLOSER TO WHAT THE THOUSAND SONS LIBRARIANS ARE THAN THE STORMSEERS ARE AND EVEN THE STORMSEERS BELIEVE THE BAN ON PSYCHIC POWERS INCLUDED THEM. AND THEY DON'T SPEAK PROPER LOW GOTHIC EITHER, SO THE EXCUSE OF MISTRANSLATION DIES THERE.

 

So, as usual, it comes down to semantics, beliefs and methods. And UNTIL SOMETHING DEFINITIVE IS PUBLISHED CONCERNING THE EMPEROR'S VIEWPOINT FROM HIS VIEWPOINT OR THAT AN UNBIASED THIRD PARTY, it will forever be an endless debate. This topic is NOT about Rune Priests vs Librarians. This topic is about whether or not they were affected by the nulls and if their powers were actually different from those of other psykers in the Legion. The answer is yes, they are affected by nulls because their powers ARE NOT any different from those of other psyker Astartes, regardless of beliefs or methods used in controlling that power.

[Conn Eremon]

We have no idea what the Emperor meant, only what he said. What he did say led the Space Wolves to believe themselves free of the restriction. Whether they are following his words but not his intent is certainly up for debate. Space Wolf fans might be more inclined to defend their chosen Legion's decision while others might find it hypocritical.

 

However, the debate is centered around what the Emperor meant by his words. Until we get a look into his mind (Admiral Ackbar willing, we won't. The Last Church was bad enough) and can see what he meant by it, we don't really know. We can only guess. And that is all I am seeing here right now, and every other time this crops back up. A bunch of people arguing over their own guesses on what goes on in the Emperor's head.

[Blacksad]

I would think that by librarians, he means psykers.

 

I mean, what if Magnus just said, " aiight big e, I wont have a librarius, i'll rename my guys rune priests, and they'll 'focus power from Tizca.'"

 

Its the same thing. Just a different name.

 

Plus, how the hell are they focussing fenrisian element powers halfway across the galaxy? seems a little silly unless you think, oh they use the warp since it is prevalent nearly everywhere.

comprehensive reading really isn't your thing is it? this is the LAST time I'm going to copy paste. If you still can't wrap your head around it, there's no hope for you.

 

 

But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

 

so even if he were to disband, and rename, he'd still be breaking the edict.

 

also, for the LAST time. I don't claim that runepriest powers don't come from the warp. Never have. stop trying to make it sound like I do, it's insulting.

but IF I were: "they use totems." voila, explained.

 

also: I know full well that it can be percieved as hypochritical. It is. I'm not denying it. Indeed, A-D-B has been on this board stating that the intention was for all psychers to be banned, not just the librarians. Too bad, like many things the Emperor did, he did this half-arsed, and invited the proverbial :cuss into the fan.

 

The Emperor's WORDS are law. his thoughts are to high for anyone to guess, so while it'd be a whole lot easier for the emperor if his thoughts were law, it's his words that are spread

[Kol Saresk]

Hmm, I wonder. In Battle for the Abyss, it says that all, or at least, 700 of the Word Bearers' battle-psykers were organized into the Chapter of the Void, would they count? I mean, think about it. They're Battle-psykers, not Librarians. They're in their own little Chapter, not a Librarius. And! And they obviously don't practice the training regime that the Librarians were supposed to practice. So they're exempt too right? I mean, the Edict banned Librarians, not Battle-psykers.

 

That is where semantics can take you. Let's leave this at the place it always goes to: a dead end.

[Blacksad]

chapters were formed after the Horus Heresy. => long after the librarians were back in bussiness. Your attempted troll is void :)

[depthcharge12]

Please read what Kol is saying, i'm just too sarcastic to try and beat you over the head with it to show a point that you keep missing.

 

Some of the posts (read a large majority on this forum) about the space wolves made by those of their fanbase are just blatantly wrong and just ignore the common sense and logic that other posters try to get across, which are for a good part, unbiased and not targeted from a specific fanbase.

 

ITS JUST SEMANTICS

 

 

edit: this is my last post. this thread is going to get nuked into terminator 3

[GhostMalone]

Actually that's not the case at all if so nemiel getting bitch slapped and losing his head during the heresy would have never happened. The edict never got revoked even in the 41st millennium

[Conn Eremon]

chapters were formed after the Horus Heresy. => long after the librarians were back in bussiness. Your attempted troll is void :)

. . . Dude. Just, come on. Really?

[Kol Saresk]

Actually the Legions(well most of them) were organized into Chapters which where then organized into companies. The Word Bearers followed such organization. This can be seen in Battle for the Abyss, The First Heretic, Know No Fear, Betrayer, The Underground War and A Deeper Darkness. So my "troll" is not a troll. It serves a purpose by doing what I have said since page 1 and what Cormac has said:

 

The Rune Priest vs Librarian in the Case of the Edict of Nikea will forever end in a dead end until something is published from either the Emperor's view or the view of an unbiased third party that explains the Emperor's meaning.

 

So troll is void because it is not a troll, but sarcasm.

[depthcharge12]

Sorry i broke my vow of silence

 

@cormac

 

do you ever get the feeling that space wolf fans wind up chasing their tails in threads?

 

I swear that anyone's chosen chapter really reflects themself to a t

[Conn Eremon]

Depthcharge, I am a Space Wolf fan. Criticizing a whole group for the words of a, admittedly obnoxiously loud, few doesn't really help the situation.

[Blacksad]

what point would that be? huh?

 

I've clearly stated realising, aknowledging AND understanding that the Rune Priests derive their power from the warp

I've clearly stated realising, aknowledging AND understanding that the Emperor probably (likely) ment to include the SW's Rune Priests in his edict

 

 

what I won't aknowledge is that the way it's written does not leave the option for the SW's interpretation open.

 

I'm not saying it's the right one, I'm saying that the way it's written the interpretation can be made, and has RAW backing it.

 

but noooo, RAW is only correct when it suits others, not when it suits the SW players, cause they're all rabid fanboys.

 

Kol: didn't know that the chapterthing came between legions and battle compagnies. always thought the legions were devided in battle compagnies untill the codex astartes.

[GhostMalone]

And this is why I don't put forward an opinion unless I've researched it. I've read every single heresy book all the limited editions I have in my library I have the source books art books and even then I can still be proven wrong.

 

Some things are best left unsaid and I wish I hadn't par taken in this arguement, back on topic the sisters of silence being nulls I think work on pretty much every psyker/warp presence except the big e and the strongest of chaos survents.

 

Pretty sure Magnus wasn't affected and if it did work on primarchs hello horus surround him and the emps with sisters rather than custodes

[Kol Saresk]

what point would that be? huh?

 

I've clearly stated realising, aknowledging AND understanding that the Rune Priests derive their power from the warp

I've clearly stated realising, aknowledging AND understanding that the Emperor probably (likely) ment to include the SW's Rune Priests in his edict

 

 

what I won't aknowledge is that the way it's written does not leave the option for the SW's interpretation open.

Believe it or not, we, or at least I am, are not saying that it is not open for interpretation. All we, or at least I am, are saying is that there isn't enough evidence to support one interpretation over another, however there is plenty of circumstantial evidence that goes against the SW's case. However, it is circumstantial. That's why it always becomes a debate of semantics, methods and beliefs. And why it also always hits a dead end.

Kol: didn't know that the chapterthing came between legions and battle compagnies. always thought the legions were devided in battle compagnies untill the codex astartes.

Understandable. not all of the Legions do it. So if you never read a book where they are mentioned, then it can be easily missed.

[Greyall]

That's actually something I've wondered about for a long time: do nulls have power levels as well? The novel 'Nemesis' answered that with providing null power levels (a Black Pariah if I recall), yet still left some doubt.

 

However, there being power levels, I'm sure a run-of-the-mill pariah wouldn't be able to stop Magnus from channeling his power. However, since the Wolves deployed several...

[Kol Saresk]

I honestly don't know. Nemesis certainly does give the appearance of such since there were nulls who could actually project the null-zone with enough strength to kill the target. Then again, it just might be a "practice makes perfect" scenario.

[depthcharge12]

Depthcharge, I am a Space Wolf fan. Criticizing a whole group for the words of a, admittedly obnoxiously loud, few doesn't really help the situation.

 

Hahaha which wolf of the 12 was the forgiving wolf?

[Conn Eremon]

Practice makes perfect makes more sense. To me, it sounded like there wasn't a change in power, just the ability to wield and control it.

[Blacksad]

 

what point would that be? huh?

 

I've clearly stated realising, aknowledging AND understanding that the Rune Priests derive their power from the warp

I've clearly stated realising, aknowledging AND understanding that the Emperor probably (likely) ment to include the SW's Rune Priests in his edict

 

 

what I won't aknowledge is that the way it's written does not leave the option for the SW's interpretation open.

Believe it or not, we, or at least I am, are not saying that it is not open for interpretation. All we, or at least I am, are saying is that there isn't enough evidence to support one interpretation over another, however there is plenty of circumstantial evidence that goes against the SW's case. However, it is circumstantial. That's why it always becomes a debate of semantics, methods and beliefs. And why it also always hits a dead end.

and THAT is what I was going for, and all I wanted to hear. It just gets really disheartening to almost constantly read posts that disregard even the possibility, and that disregard the exact wording. Same with all that Russ is most certainly dead bs. Granted, he's likely dead, but certainly? no. For some reason there's a lot of people on these boards that choose to ignore anything that'd make the SW good, or even decent. why? cause there are some SW fans that feel the SW are superior? that's just hypochritical. And when people choose to ignore even direct quotes, it tends to ... escalate.

 

when it comes to those Nulls, I seem to vaguely recall something from an old WD that besides sisters of silence and a subspecies in mutants (those pariah's probably?) that there was a xenos species that had the same power, only stronger, fairly close to Terra, but they were eradicated during the early stages of the crusades? anyone else know something about that?

 

edit: nm: found it, misremembered.

[Grimtooth]

Four Null Maidens were used to hide Russ' presence from Magnus at Nikaea. So both able to conceal the presence of a primarch and blind a very power psycjic primarch would speak to the maidens being fairly powerful.

[Grimtooth]

 

 

Emp told everyone to stop with their librarius program. SW never started one, so there wasn't one to stop.

Bit they still have a Librarium. They just happen to be the storage medium.

 

Again, semantics. The Stormseers are never directly called librarians. And nowhere in the IA article are they ever referred to as being part of a Librarius. And yet......

 

So like I said, it is an ever-continuing, never-resolving debate on semantics, methods and beliefs.

 

Some people thought they were included and others didn't. It is as simple as that. And there will never be a resolution until something is published from the Emperor's point of view saying what he meant by "Librarian". Or someone who is a neutral, unbiased third party who has witnessed said definition.

 

Which there will most likely never be.

Stormseers are never directly called Librarian?

 

A Thousand Sons, page 351

 

"His staff marked him out as one of the Khan's Librarians."

 

A Thousand Sons, page 351

 

The twelve Librarians congregated before the Emperor's dais,..."

 

A Thousand Sons, page 351

 

"The Librarians knelt before the Emperor,..."

 

A Thousand Sons, page 353

 

"Targutai Yesugei bowed once more and stepped from the podium, returning to the ranks of his brother Librarians."

 

Index Astartes A Thousand Sons,

 

"The tension had reached the palpable knife-edge of violence when a contingent of Space Marine Librarians approached the dais."

 

"These mystic warriors formed a semicircle about the podium to indicate they spoke with one voice, but it was a young Epistolary who stepped forward to deliver their words."

 

More then enough to settle the continued attempt at using Stormseers as a strawman; they are without any doubt at all Librarians in name and in nature.

[DarthMarko]

I think the whole deal about RP vs librarians is blown out of proportion...

 

RP are shamans, they use WARP the same way as all psykers do, but don't even think on comparing them to Tzeench tampered TS librarians and their deamonic pets...

 

 

 

-

 

Some
of the posts (read a large majority on this forum) about the space
wolves made by those of their fanbase are just blatantly wrong and just
ignore the common sense and logic that other posters try to get across,
which are for a good part, unbiased and not targeted from a specific
fanbase.

 

Ever heard of perspective ? We always present facts/quotes while you accuse people on being biased fanboys...Semantics and get out of jail card ??? Maybe not, but leave a part of your brain open to that posiblity....Also telling fans I'm right you are wrong is not cool dude.....

[Greyall]

But Marko, that's the thing, the powers wielded by a Rune Priest are exactly the same as that of a Tzeenchian Sorceror, what changes is the purpose for which they're wielded and, likely, the way they are moulded into. But Ahriman can call down a blizzard, for sure, for the wolf lulz.

 

Of course they're not the same as characters, but they use the exact same matter from the exact same source - Warp. Which is why all psykers in 40K have a Perils of the Warp rule, they all visit the grocery to get their apples, no matter what colour they choose. Unfortunately, all the apples are 1000-tooth monstrosities who either allow the psyker to throw lighting at his enemies or, if they're in a bad mood, try to eat his soul.

 

That's true for all shamans, warlocks and librarians alike.

[DarthMarko]

Greyall this is my biased perspective (ignore it if I go too fanboyish) :

 

- I think main difference between RP and a TS librarian is in the applied warp usage (how they use (abuse) warp and for what purpose) ....

-TS (who were already gene tampered by Tzeench) showed that they would do anything for knowlege (killing that chick, Magnus and his pacts, tutelaries etc.), while RP are only doing for the good of the chapter (you could joke that they are limited)

- RP gained some knowlege what emperor left and honed that to perfection

, while TS went from spell to spell, deeper and deeper, thus becoming more powerful and hubris blind, like wizard vs sorcerer in d&d

 

My two cents, sorry about my bias...

 

p.s. Rune Priest would be equal to Tzeenchian sorceror only if RP started to put thirst for knowlege and power over lives and their chapter (which they don't)