Rune Priests and Psychic Nulls

[RapatoR]

 

 

what point would that be? huh?

 

I've clearly stated realising, aknowledging AND understanding that the Rune Priests derive their power from the warp

I've clearly stated realising, aknowledging AND understanding that the Emperor probably (likely) ment to include the SW's Rune Priests in his edict

 

 

what I won't aknowledge is that the way it's written does not leave the option for the SW's interpretation open.

Believe it or not, we, or at least I am, are not saying that it is not open for interpretation. All we, or at least I am, are saying is that there isn't enough evidence to support one interpretation over another, however there is plenty of circumstantial evidence that goes against the SW's case. However, it is circumstantial. That's why it always becomes a debate of semantics, methods and beliefs. And why it also always hits a dead end.

and THAT is what I was going for, and all I wanted to hear. It just gets really disheartening to almost constantly read posts that disregard even the possibility, and that disregard the exact wording. Same with all that Russ is most certainly dead bs. Granted, he's likely dead, but certainly? no. For some reason there's a lot of people on these boards that choose to ignore anything that'd make the SW good, or even decent. why? cause there are some SW fans that feel the SW are superior? that's just hypochritical. And when people choose to ignore even direct quotes, it tends to ... escalate.

 

Dude I think noone ever stated that Wolves had a damn good reason to believe that they are exception. We know that they are immensely loyal to the Emperor and they wouldn't conciously break his order, I just thought you were discussing matter from general point of view, not from Wolves.

 

In fact i am glad it is worded this way. If Emperor said "all psykers" and wolves choose to ingore it, it would make them to seem stupid. (Heck even if they did something stupid, I wouldn't mind and I would still love them. Wich legion or primarch didn't something stupid?)

 

 

Greyall this is my biased perspective (ignore it if I go too fanboyish) :

 

-I think main difference between RP and a TS librarian is in the applied warp usage (how they use (abuse) warp and for what purpose) ....

-TS (who were already gene tampered by Tzeench) showed that they would do anything for knowlege (killing that chick, Magnus and his pacts, tutelaries etc.), while RP are only doing for the good of the chapter (you could joke that they are limited)

 

- RP gained some knowlege what emperor left and honed that to perfection, while TS went from spell to spell, deeper and deeper, thus becoming more powerful and hubris blind, like wizard vs sorcerer in d&d

 

My two cents, sorry about my bias...

 

p.s. Rune Priest would be equal to Tzeenchian sorceror only if RP started to put thirst for knowlege and power over lives and their chapter (which they don't)

Well you are speaking of two different things IMO: Greyall speaks about source and you speak about attiutde. One think to remember though, is to say it will be always dangerous thing even if you limit yourself as there is always risk of overcommitment - perils (and it apparently happens to RP as frequently as to TS sorceror). Heck it is dangerous for Grey Knights in same measure and they should be experts at being careful with warp. Hence source is as likely to screw with you if you are careful or not. However the attitude TS chose ultimately leads to corruption and devoting yourself to chaos, thing that is far less likely to occur with Rune Priests.

 

But one interesting thing to note (and that was slipping away in this discussion) is that attitude of RP towards warp closely reflect attitude of other non-TS librarians (At Nikea they basically advocated philosophy of present-day librarians.)

[daveNYC]

The problem is that we're not discussing the right question:  Are the Wolves a perfect legion, or are they the perfect legion?  And as a followup, Russ vs. Ditka, who would win?

 

Nulls' strength, as with too many things in 40k, seems to vary based on the needs of the story.  Though if four of them would be enough to lock down Magnus, then Russ' attack on Prospero, and the Emperor's attack on Horus were pretty badly planned.  More likely that a Primarch would notice the nulls' power in the same way an elephant might notice a fly: as a minor presence and one easily swatted away.  Magnus didn't penetrate the zone the nulls not because he couldn't, but because doing so would be rude and a gross display of power.  Not to mention that it'd probably also cause heads to literally explode, and nobody wants that.  Plus, within the setting of Nikea, he wouldn't have needed to view the shielded area to know what's in there.  Russ hiding himself using the null maidens is about as subtle a move as Lex Luthor sticking the kryptonite in a lead box.

[Greyall]

An aside: I stand corrected on the Null powers thing, if 4 can indeed mask something from a Primarch, that's impressive. Also seems to indicate the null power is elemental, in a way, it seems to just nulify all Warp and Warp usage around the person.

 

A Rune Priest is - presumably - a more responsible fellow, but surely among the Space Wolves that have fallen to Chaos, some were Rune Priests. Because the energy they wield, being the same, has the same tendency for causing dependence and getting the attention of Daemons.

 

No one's saying the Space Wolves were as irresponsible with their powers as the Thousand Sons, the Sons clearly display some recklessness and too much thirst for magic usage. Also, Magnus and his kids are indeed the reason why Nikaea happened.

 

The thing is - and I actually think the Emperor's words were pretty clear for anyone not invested in being a smartass - the Wolves disrespected the Nikaea Edict from the very start. We're trying to figure out why:

 

- Was it just another display of their naturally rebellious nature?

 

- Was it a matter of "Our Psykers are different"?

 

- Did they see themselves as having a sort of higher rank than the other Legions? ADB said in the closed "Scars" thread that the Wolves did not kill any of the Lost Legions, and that the writers were warned to stop suggesting that (let's try and keep this in mind for future discussion, I admit to hesitating checking the thread since I was almost convinced the Wolves had done it and I liked it). Yet there's the matter of the Wolves being sent after Angron, Magnus and to check on the Blood Angels, so that may lead them to think of themselves as "Hairy Custodes".

[DarthMarko]

hairy custodes...

[daveNYC]

An aside: I stand corrected on the Null powers thing, if 4 can indeed mask something from a Primarch, that's impressive. Also seems to indicate the null power is elemental, in a way, it seems to just nulify all Warp and Warp usage around the person.

 

A Rune Priest is - presumably - a more responsible fellow, but surely among the Space Wolves that have fallen to Chaos, some were Rune Priests. Because the energy they wield, being the same, has the same tendency for causing dependence and getting the attention of Daemons.

 

No one's saying the Space Wolves were as irresponsible with their powers as the Thousand Sons, the Sons clearly display some recklessness and too much thirst for magic usage. Also, Magnus and his kids are indeed the reason why Nikaea happened.

 

The thing is - and I actually think the Emperor's words were pretty clear for anyone not invested in being a smartass - the Wolves disrespected the Nikaea Edict from the very start. We're trying to figure out why:

 

- Was it just another display of their naturally rebellious nature?

 

- Was it a matter of "Our Psykers are different"?

 

- Did they see themselves as having a sort of higher rank than the other Legions? ADB said in the closed "Scars" thread that the Wolves did not kill any of the Lost Legions, and that the writers were warned to stop suggesting that (let's try and keep this in mind for future discussion, I admit to hesitating checking the thread since I was almost convinced the Wolves had done it and I liked it). Yet there's the matter of the Wolves being sent after Angron, Magnus and to check on the Blood Angels, so that may lead them to think of themselves as "Hairy Custodes".

 

The wolves weren't sent after Angron, Russ took it upon himself to chase down the World Eaters and attempt to stage an intervention.  Which he did in about the most ham fisted way possible.  Russ does seem to think that he is his brothers' keeper, though he has about as much skill at it as The Lion does at being a marriage counselor.  

 

Lead can block Superman's x-ray vision, but that doesn't mean that lead is particularly powerful, nor that Superman couldn't just burn a hole in the lead with his heat vision.  I think of the nulls as trees planted for a windbreak.  If there's a light breeze, then no wind gets through, more wind and you feel a little, a storm and the windbreak does nothing, add in a tornado and the windbreak gets turned into splinters.

[Greyall]

Aye, but it would take effort from a magic-adept Primarch to see through only four Nulls, that says something about their powers. What accounts we have show the presence of Nulls to be very disturbing for Psykers, causing nausea and such. Actually, they do that no regular people too, but less intensely. Sure their defenses might be penetrated, but it seems to take a very powerful and hardened psyker to be able to do it.

 

My mistake on Russ being sent by the Emperor, then. But let's not go back to that particular incident. For the purpose of this thread, it provides some basis to Russ and his Legion acting as overseers, at times. In Thousand Sons they are particularly insufferable/competent at their job (however you choose to see it), though they have a very biased view of Magnus and his Legion. They are considerably more mild with the Blood Angels, no doubt because, among other things, there's only a handful of them. Incidently, in both cases the Wolves' suspicions prove correct - meaning they die/are subjected to horrific pain.

 

Making it all the more awkward that they keep using their psykers at leisure. I mean, Wyrdmake and Ahriman met on the same spiritual dimension, isn't it a bit weird that a Shaman and a Warlock can both go to the same limbo? Wyrdmake even acknowledges this and assumes said dimension as common to both of them and the place from where they draw power. Now there's an assumption to some similarity.

[Angel of Solitude]

The answer to this question is yes - nulls have power levels as well. Basically they go in reverse to the "Alpha-Beta" grading system, with Omega Minus being the top level for a null, which is essentially such a powerful null effect that it can effectively wipe out a Grey Knights squad. The source for this is the Atlas Inferno novel.

 

 

That's actually something I've wondered about for a long time: do nulls have power levels as well? The novel 'Nemesis' answered that with providing null power levels (a Black Pariah if I recall), yet still left some doubt.

 

However, there being power levels, I'm sure a run-of-the-mill pariah wouldn't be able to stop Magnus from channeling his power. However, since the Wolves deployed several...

[Kol Saresk]

It is unknown if Russ went after Angron on his own initiative or was sent. That's why Angron kept saying things like "Who put you in charge?" it is yet a grey area concerning the executioners thing that in one blow confirms they are the executioners while at the same time raising suspicion on just who made them the executioners, Russ or the Emperor?

 

Just wanted to clear that bit up.

[daveNYC]

It is unknown if Russ went after Angron on his own initiative or was sent. That's why Angron kept saying things like "Who put you in charge?" it is yet a grey area concerning the executioners thing that in one blow confirms they are the executioners while at the same time raising suspicion on just who made them the executioners, Russ or the Emperor?

 

Just wanted to clear that bit up.

 

I felt from my reading of Betrayer that it was pretty clear that Russ had simply taken it upon himself to try and bring Angron in.  Russ never replied when he was asked who sent him, and he never responded when Angron declared that Russ wasn't acting on anyone's authority.  Russ acting on his own would also explain why no further action was taken against the World Eaters, since one would think that if the Emperor had wanted Angron back at Terra, and instead ended up with Astartes killing Astartes (and no Angron coming back to Terra), you would think he would have sent some sort of heavily armed response.  Whereas if Russ acted on his own, not telling anyone makes more sense, since the story would not be particularly flattering to Russ:

R: Angron's out of control, he killed a bunch of my guys and was going to kill me.

E: Wha... !?  How the heck did that happen?

R: Well I met with him in an attempt to have him quit the crusade and return to Terra because I was worried about their behavior.

E: ...well...Ignoring just golly gee you though gave you that level of command authority, just how were you planning on convincing Angron to go with you?

R: I told him you sent me to bring him in.

E: ...I've got morons on my team.

 

Although it is also possible that this happened so close to Horus declaring himself that there wasn't time to inform the Emperor.  Not sure about the timing.

[The Broker]

Aye, but it would take effort from a magic-adept Primarch to see through only four Nulls, that says something about their powers. What accounts we have show the presence of Nulls to be very disturbing for Psykers, causing nausea and such. Actually, they do that no regular people too, but less intensely. Sure their defenses might be penetrated, but it seems to take a very powerful and hardened psyker to be able to do it.

 

My mistake on Russ being sent by the Emperor, then. But let's not go back to that particular incident. For the purpose of this thread, it provides some basis to Russ and his Legion acting as overseers, at times. In Thousand Sons they are particularly insufferable/competent at their job (however you choose to see it), though they have a very biased view of Magnus and his Legion. They are considerably more mild with the Blood Angels, no doubt because, among other things, there's only a handful of them. Incidently, in both cases the Wolves' suspicions prove correct - meaning they die/are subjected to horrific pain.

 

Making it all the more awkward that they keep using their psykers at leisure. I mean, Wyrdmake and Ahriman met on the same spiritual dimension, isn't it a bit weird that a Shaman and a Warlock can both go to the same limbo? Wyrdmake even acknowledges this and assumes said dimension as common to both of them and the place from where they draw power. Now there's an assumption to some similarity.

 

It's possible the nulls weren't placed around Russ to stop Magnus from using his powers to see him, but to lock down Russ's own latent primarch psyker powers, which would alert Magnus to his presence.

 

Ie. they didn't stop Magnus from seeing him, as it stopped Russ from accidentally broadcasting his presence.

[Wade Garrett]

Look, a Storm Bolter wielded by a Salamander Terminator and a twin linked combi bolter wielded by one from the Black Legion ARE BOTH BOLTERS.

 

They both fire bolt rounds, their internal mechanisms are very similar...one may be used to defend innocent lives and other to end them, but a bolter is a bolter.

[Kol Saresk]

@daveNYC: IIRC, according to Betrayer the timing was said to have been early enough that the Butcher's Nails were still new but late enough that most, if not all(barring Librarians), of the Legion had them. So since Angron was a Primarch for in the neighborhood of 100 years, I'd say there was a plenty of time.

 

Also, it is old background material that the Emperor did reprimand Angron for using the Nails. Here, we see two things.

 

1.) Either the Emperor sent Russ after Angron.

 

2.) Or Uss left on his own initiative, and the Emperor never said anything bad to the Wolves, which would give the appearance of the Emperor's consent.

 

Regardless of which situation, both would have the same result after the records spent ten thousand years in the hands of the Imperium: the Emperor did it.

 

The Broker: I assume you are referring to the battlefield?

[Greyall]

Or instinctively howling - which seems to be the Wolves' equivalent of cocaine - and making a psyker-filled council go into hangover mode. =p

 

In all fairness, while Russ did go overboard on his authority, he also acted as a brother, I think. It would've worked with most of the Primarchs, I think, one way or another, since the point was driven home by thousands of Astartes aiming their weapons at a Primarch. Unfortunately, no one seems to understand just how broken and "Not-Give-a-F**ky" Angron his. Hence, they treat him as if he aspires to anything within the Imperium or is being overzealous. Like he actually has any chance of changing.

 

The closest and best anyone could get was Lorgar being spared a Titan foot.

 

@Kol: No, Broker was referring to the council of Nikaea, in which four Null-Maidens were used to mask Russ' presence from Magnus. Or, to prevent Russ' latent psyker powers from going off and alerting Magnus.

 

Now that we're talking about it, have you noticed how Russ' psyker powers are anti-psyker? First, the howl. Then, the way Auramagma's flames are simply reflected at him without Russ even blinking.

[daveNYC]

@daveNYC: IIRC, according to Betrayer the timing was said to have been early enough that the Butcher's Nails were still new but late enough that most, if not all(barring Librarians), of the Legion had them. So since Angron was a Primarch for in the neighborhood of 100 years, I'd say there was a plenty of time.

Also, it is old background material that the Emperor did reprimand Angron for using the Nails. Here, we see two things.

1.) Either the Emperor sent Russ after Angron.

2.) Or Uss left on his own initiative, and the Emperor never said anything bad to the Wolves, which would give the appearance of the Emperor's consent.

Regardless of which situation, both would have the same result after the records spent ten thousand years in the hands of the Imperium: the Emperor did it.

The Broker: I assume you are referring to the battlefield?

If the Imperium manages to last another 5k years, the records will probably show that the Emperor planned for Horus' betrayal and spending the past few millenium on the Golden Throne has all been Just As Planned.

Yeah, I know about the Emperor's reprimand, I would have loved to see what the exact wording was on that. "Dear Angron, you know that cybernetic implant that you use? The one that turns your gene-engineered super warriors into frothing at the mouth homicidal maniacs? Could you maybe stop doing that?"

Anywho, I don't think that The Night of the Wolf was that reprimand. It read more like a poorly done intervention for an addict. That Russ recognized Angron as a self-distructive rage-aholic and wanted to help, but was unable to grasp the reasons and motivation behind that rage.

On the one hand, that makes sense. Each of the primarchs was, in their own way, absolutely perfect and utterly successful. While they might have the ability to understand the suffering of the mortals around them, it might not have been possible for these demigods to truly grasp the fact that Angron was someone who was suffering huge amounts of physical and mental pain. Betrayer goes into that, all the other primarchs were top dogs on their planets, if they weren't loved, they were at least respected (or feared, close enough), and they had a close crew of people who went with them into the stars. Angron was the only one who checked off (D) None of the above on that list, Slave, lost his war, friends all dead, and there's the Emperor, the man who didn't help him win the war, left his friends to die, and didn't remove the Nails from his head.

On the other hand, bizarro archeotech box stuck in his brain! Damnit man, you'd think the fact that he's got electrical cables running out of his skull would be a good sign that he's got some freaking issues and should be handled with care.

[DarthMarko]

 

It is unknown if Russ went after Angron on his own initiative or was sent. That's why Angron kept saying things like "Who put you in charge?" it is yet a grey area concerning the executioners thing that in one blow confirms they are the executioners while at the same time raising suspicion on just who made them the executioners, Russ or the Emperor?

 

Just wanted to clear that bit up.

 

I felt from my reading of Betrayer that it was pretty clear that Russ had simply taken it upon himself to try and bring Angron in.  Russ never replied when he was asked who sent him, and he never responded when Angron declared that Russ wasn't acting on anyone's authority.  Russ acting on his own would also explain why no further action was taken against the World Eaters, since one would think that if the Emperor had wanted Angron back at Terra, and instead ended up with Astartes killing Astartes (and no Angron coming back to Terra), you would think he would have sent some sort of heavily armed response.  Whereas if Russ acted on his own, not telling anyone makes more sense, since the story would not be particularly flattering to Russ:

R: Angron's out of control, he killed a bunch of my guys and was going to kill me.

E: Wha... !?  How the heck did that happen?

R: Well I met with him in an attempt to have him quit the crusade and return to Terra because I was worried about their behavior.

E: ...well...Ignoring just golly gee you though gave you that level of command authority, just how were you planning on convincing Angron to go with you?

R: I told him you sent me to bring him in.

E: ...I've got morons on my team.

 

Although it is also possible that this happened so close to Horus declaring himself that there wasn't time to inform the Emperor.  Not sure about the timing.

This is just too silly...

Poorly executed brotherly intervention is my guess...Simple

[Lagbenektelse]

This is my take.  Russ really had no idea to just where Angron was mentally.  There was a perfect visible lesson at the end of his intervention such that even Lorgar understood.  But...Angron did not see it that way consciously or subconsiously.  Consiously he had one because he had defeated Russ in one on one combat(gladiatior) and subconsciously he wanted to die.  In his mind the outcome was  the worst of all worlds.

 

The Emperor likely wanted Angron brought back in order to fully devote his attention to removing the nails.  He built the guy so he could probably with enough time rework/ reprogram him.  Same with Magnus.  With Magnus in the palace he could marshall his talents in a "sterile environment" for the better of the Imperium.

 

Anyway as to the null maidens I have been led to believe they do have power levels that are innate in the same sense as psyker abilities.  As to their blocking of Russ at Nikaea that is easy enough.  It is best to hide where no one would look.  Even using psychic power if Russ is in a room with only Nulls then it would appear an empty room.  Essentially nothing to see here folks and move on.

[Grimtooth]

Null maidens don't work that way. It would not appear to be an empty room but a literal blank space in the volcano. The maidens cast an aura of the effects of the pariah gene that during the razing of Prospero some Thousand Sons were able to detect.

 

More then likely there were multiple null maidens placed around the volcano and thus multiple blank spots.

 

We also need to remember that the null maidens affected the primordial creator when it was in Horus form on Prospero. So they are pretty powerful and I would say that they would have messed with Magnus badly.

[Kol Saresk]

You are right Ramses, but I think it goes further than blank spots. It's more like "holes". It wasn't parts of a map that were just blank, it was pieces that were missing, like they had been torn out.

 

And that's also why they were so dangerous to warp-creatures. Nulls/Pariahs create an area of space the warp literally does not and cannot exist in, except when they are wearing their limiters. That's why the KSons had to use conventional means to kill the null maidens once their positions were located.

 

However, I'm not sure sticking them next to Russ would have been a good idea. Warp energy is a fact of their existence. Without it, they would not exist. And so far, more than a few have been shown to have small bursts, squirts and fits of psychic potency from Russ's howl to Lion's shield maybe even to Angron's invulnerability. Putting a null next to a being like that while in the midst of battle....... That could have who knows what kind of consequences. Unless its in Prospero Burns. I admit, I don't remember much of that book so it may have happened in there.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Just a quick chime in

 

Im suprised at how close to civilized this round of the Wolf debate has gone. Kudos to all of you!

 

On Russ and Angron, Night of the Wolf: This was Russ taking matters into his own hands, with no official authority bestowed upon him.

 

On the nature of Rune Priests: They are psykers, but not Librarians. I do however believe they are to be included in the Edict of Nikea. If things hadnt gone so pear shaped so fast, I have no doubt the Emperor would have personally addressed the matter.

So this would mean, the Wolves, like many of the traitors, are guilty of violating the Edict of Nikea. In the nature confidence/arrogance of the Wolves, we thought our measured use of the psychic powers were permissible, but we did show some sense in hiding that when amongst the other Legions.

 

this does raise the question of the actions of any Rune Priest during Prospero, as they were accompanied by both Custodes and Sisters of Silence, but outside of Wyrdmake, is there any mention of any other Rune Priests employing their talents in "Prospero Buns"? I dont remember any, but may have missed it.

 

as Kol repeatedly said, until we have the Emp's pov, this is going to be a unfinished debate.

 

WLK

[depthcharge12]

@wlk

 

i most heartly agree with you.

 

Rune priests are psykers, but technically not under the librarius

 

the null maidens would affect them, i think we could all agree

 

but does the edict apply to them? it gets fuzzy

 

hopefully it can be addressed soon in a civil manner by an author.

 

I believe ADB said something to the effect that he would murder someone just to be able to re write the whole heresy series again to make it flow and not be so disjointed and conflicting

[Kol Saresk]

I believe ADB said something to the effect that he would murder someone just to be able to re write the whole heresy series again to make it flow and not be so disjointed and conflicting

I'll hide the body. Just saying. I'm in Florida. Plenty of places for evidence to be........... misplaced.

[depthcharge12]

Maybe it can be Ben counter, so we can all lay the battle for the abyss to rest

 

just kidding of course

 

but maybe if we petition His favor, he might do it....

[Kol Saresk]

Ben Counter has done some good. We need someone who the entire 40K community can disapprove of....... Like Dora the Explorer...

[GhostMalone]

Stuff 40k all I want is the heresy enthusiasts to be in agreeance otherwise we will start having flying churches in 30k and power armoured warriors in power armour powered by power armour lets just keep it how it should be

[Conn Eremon]

Hey. You don't mess with Dora the Explorer. That kid is straight educational. Don't even get me started on Diego.

 

And I'd be careful, Kol. I've seen CSI: Miami.