Rune Priests and Psychic Nulls

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, sunglasses and cheesy lines really save the day, don't they?

[Conn Eremon]

YEEEAAAAAAHHH they do, they really do.

[Grimtooth]

Pretty sure more will be revealed when the HH books get to the razing of Prospero and we finally get our 30k Wolves models. Not mention with the rumored Wolves codex next May followed by 13th Co supplement at the end of year with a parallel Thousand Sons supplement that is said to focus on the Wolves long battle with Tzneectch.

 

With those things on the horizon, it is possible that the task of explaining the Wolves use of rune priests after the edict will be taken out of the hands of the BL authors and put into those of the codex/supplement writers.

[Kol Saresk]

To be honest, if that happens than I fear for the Wolves. The worst the BL authors can do is make them hypocrites. GW has a habit of taking worse case scenarios and making them even worse.

[Greyall]

Although I'm fairly certain being an hypocrite for the sake of the Emperor/The God-Emperor/The Imperium/our race's survival/the Dark Gods/that fluffy kitten over there is part of 40K's universe. Come the end of the HH novels, every Legion will have a goddamned reason to have conscience-aches.

 

Even the Salamanders got it, Vulkan was feeling all doubty and such. His show of confidence? Vaporize an entire population because "It needs to be done". And with papa Empy watching.

 

The White Scars are still in doubt.

 

The Wolves got tricked by Horus due to their overeagerness in fighting Magnus. Also the Rune Priests thing.

 

Blood Angels acted like Khorne's kids. Also, there's a bit of wolf flesh between Amit's teeth.

 

The Ultramarines...well, I'm guessing the Imperium Secundus will be their moment.

 

The Lion was only too happy to give Perturabo the new artillery weapons, forgetting there was a civil war going on. The kind that should make one as skeptical as him be even more skeptical.

 

Right now, the only ones I can think of with a cleaner sheet are the Imperial Fists. Hell, Dorn even scolded Malcador and Valdor for using assassins.

[Grimtooth]

Although I'm fairly certain being an hypocrite for the sake of the Emperor/The God-Emperor/The Imperium/our race's survival/the Dark Gods/that fluffy kitten over there is part of 40K's universe. Come the end of the HH novels, every Legion will have a goddamned reason to have conscience-aches.

 

Even the Salamanders got it, Vulkan was feeling all doubty and such. His show of confidence? Vaporize an entire population because "It needs to be done". And with papa Empy watching.

 

The White Scars are still in doubt.

 

The Wolves got tricked by Horus due to their overeagerness in fighting Magnus. Also the Rune Priests thing.

 

Blood Angels acted like Khorne's kids. Also, there's a bit of wolf flesh between Amit's teeth.

 

The Ultramarines...well, I'm guessing the Imperium Secundus will be their moment.

 

The Lion was only too happy to give Perturabo the new artillery weapons, forgetting there was a civil war going on. The kind that should make one as skeptical as him be even more skeptical.

 

Right now, the only ones I can think of with a cleaner sheet are the Imperial Fists. Hell, Dorn even scolded Malcador and Valdor for using assassins.

Dorn scolds everyone.

 

I wonder if anytime before he gets killed, will Sang have a face to face with Russ to tell him what happened. Sang seems like he carries guilt pretty close to his heart and would be one to want to confess and ask forgiveness.

[Greyall]

Well, Dorn keeps that hard façade but, like Guilliman, he has issues with being a high-achiever. Specifically, since his Legion is more specialized than Guilliman's, he seems to have some doubts as to his value, which are made worse since, to his brothers, he's one of daddy's special boys. He does question every decision or action he doesn't like and lets his brothers know about it, but it's not like he doesn't have a more or less clean sheet - of course, a clean sheet that probably includes one or two Exterminatus.

 

That Sanguinius part is interesting, I agree it would make sense for him. He'd be in luck, though. Having been (in part, but I'm sure he blames himself the most) responsible for turning an entire Legion to chaos, Russ will probably say "We all have our moments" or something like that.

[The Acid Dog]

Although I'm fairly certain being an hypocrite for the sake of the Emperor/The God-Emperor/The Imperium/our race's survival/the Dark Gods/that fluffy kitten over there is part of 40K's universe. Come the end of the HH novels, every Legion will have a goddamned reason to have conscience-aches.

 

Even the Salamanders got it, Vulkan was feeling all doubty and such. His show of confidence? Vaporize an entire population because "It needs to be done". And with papa Empy watching.

 

The White Scars are still in doubt.

 

The Wolves got tricked by Horus due to their overeagerness in fighting Magnus. Also the Rune Priests thing.

 

Blood Angels acted like Khorne's kids. Also, there's a bit of wolf flesh between Amit's teeth.

 

The Ultramarines...well, I'm guessing the Imperium Secundus will be their moment.

 

The Lion was only too happy to give Perturabo the new artillery weapons, forgetting there was a civil war going on. The kind that should make one as skeptical as him be even more skeptical.

 

Right now, the only ones I can think of with a cleaner sheet are the Imperial Fists. Hell, Dorn even scolded Malcador and Valdor for using assassins.

 

 

I don't know that Vulkan destroying that population was reason for a conscience-ache.

 

 

 

To us it would be, but everyone in the Crusade destroyed populations, everyone was expected to, and everyone knew that they would going in.  No one had qualms or illusions about that, even Vulkan.  The Emperor may accept what we'd call slaves, but he will not accept slaves who desire masters other than himself in any sense, temporal or eternal.  Vulkan, at least, doesn't assume populations want other masters and demonstrates to them why they should desire the Emperor's rule.  In the case of the xenos loving filth on the world he burned, he was in a place where that lack of assumption and demonstration would prove completely futile.  He was never going to find anyone on that world who desired the salvation the Emperor offered because they thought they were already saved.  This was probably the case with most human worlds; the message of the Emperor's Crusade was led by armies of genetically engineered super-warriors, after all, rather than delivered by a postal service.  If he were left alone in that situation Vulkan may have lost the will to be compassionate and started killing everyone just in case, because assuming the minority when you know it's the minority is counterintuitive.  The Emperor came at that moment of doubt and reaffirmed Vulkan's initial convictions to be compassionate.  In the Emperor's eyes--and I dare say even in his own--Vulkan did everything right.  He may not like what he did in the end, but it would be the same as when he discarded his first anvil after it cracked.  It was unfortunate but necessary, and we don't feel shame for doing what we're sure is necessary.  We only feel shame for doing things we aren't sure are necessary  That's how I see what happened, at any rate.

 

 

As a side note, I'm now worried that I'm longwinded.

 

EDIT: Thanks to DarthMarko for letting me know about spoiler tags.

[DarthMarko]

 

I believe ADB said something to the effect that he would murder someone just to be able to re write the whole heresy series again to make it flow and not be so disjointed and conflicting

I'll hide the body. Just saying. I'm in Florida. Plenty of places for evidence to be........... misplaced.

black humor x 100.....O Kol you poor NL loving bastard :-)

 

And also if Heresy was a straight line, we woudn't have these juicy pointless discussions...Doom of 40k forums would follow....

 

 

@Brazentooth [*spoiler*] [*/spoiler*] - without stars :-)

[daveNYC]

To be honest, if that happens than I fear for the Wolves. The worst the BL authors can do is make them hypocrites. GW has a habit of taking worse case scenarios and making them even worse.

 

I don't think that new codeci, supplements, or the FW book will help this debate any.  Codex fluff is almost always written to fluff the subject of the codex, and can often just ignore other fluff that's been written on the subject; and the FW book will probably be written from the viewpoint of the Imperium, so it will have that bias baked in.  Remember how the Death Guard suddenly became more sinister once they joined their primarch?  No idea where that came from, the HH BL books mention nothing of the sort, and the limited information we have on Death Guard make them seem like relatively nice enough (for Astartes in 30k); but in Betrayal, it's all whispers of darkness and whatnot.

 

So chances are that the Wolf codex will talk about dark sorcery and daemonic powers all over the Razing of Prospero even though the novels have none of that going on, and any supplement on the 1k Sons will be totally dependent on the fan status of the author.  They could just go ahead and create a secret Tzeentch cult in the legion just because.

 

The good and bad thing with GW is that they let fans work on their favorite faction.  Upside is that you do get someone who is really interested in whatever project they're on.  Down side is that the odds of getting horrible Mary-Sue fanfic go way up.

[Greyall]

@Brazen: I agree with your points, mate, but I can't bring myself to just say "I understand Vulkan, I'd have killed those millions myself". It's just another example of how, in the 40K/30K setting, not only is hypocrisy everywhere (which, really, isn't much at all different from our reality), it's measured in planetary kill-counts.

 

Of course when at war (and a galaxy-wide war, at that) the value bar just plunges, but either we acknowlegde and dislike that it happens (even if we ultimately understand) or we lose one of 40K's main points of interest: whoever you root for, be prepared for disappointment. The 'I found daddy's skinned cats closet' kind of disappointment.

 

@Dave: Actually, 'Betrayal' is pretty neutral. It actually reads more like a sane person writing it than an Imperial account, which is what happens with most Imperial Armour books. Sort of a human historian from the 47th Millenium. Of course, any person besides a Tzeentchian archivist would give a completely neutral account on the most bloody act of betrayal imaginable. History usually isn't this one-sided.

 

While we know how things transpired leading to Prospero, the Wolves have far more propaganda material with which to tell a mighty tale. You have Thousand Sons Captains using their powers in completely reckless ways, to the point of turning into monsters or blowing up a crater inside their own city, said Primarchs being accompanied by Daemon familiars, their Primarch summoning a sky made of eyes, their Primarch starting the whole thing by torpedoing into the Emperor's potty room...

[Marshal Rohr]

Rune Priests equal librarians in the same way Devastators equal Long Fangs. They do the same thing, so they are the same.

 

 

Ducks and walking and quacking and all that.

[daveNYC]

@Brazen: I agree with your points, mate, but I can't bring myself to just say "I understand Vulkan, I'd have killed those millions myself". It's just another example of how, in the 40K/30K setting, not only is hypocrisy everywhere (which, really, isn't much at all different from our reality), it's measured in planetary kill-counts.

 

Of course when at war (and a galaxy-wide war, at that) the value bar just plunges, but either we acknowlegde and dislike that it happens (even if we ultimately understand) or we lose one of 40K's main points of interest: whoever you root for, be prepared for disappointment. The 'I found daddy's skinned cats closet' kind of disappointment.

 

@Dave: Actually, 'Betrayer' is pretty neutral. It actually reads more like a sane person writing it than an Imperial account, which is what happens with most Imperial Armour books. Sort of a human historian from the 47th Millenium. Of course, any person besides a Tzeentchian archivist would give a completely neutral account on the most bloody act of betrayal imaginable. History usually isn't this one-sided.

 

While we know how things transpired leading to Prospero, the Wolves have far more propaganda material with which to tell a mighty tale. You have Thousand Sons Captains using their powers in completely reckless ways, to the point of turning into monsters or blowing up a crater inside their own city, said Primarchs being accompanied by Daemon familiars, their Primarch summoning a sky made of eyes, their Primarch starting the whole thing by torpedoing into the Emperor's potty room...

 

Most of the BL books have the advantage of being written as 'being there', with the old third-person omniscient thing.  Betrayer has the added advantage of having a good author.

 

The Wolves do have more propaganda material, true.  Though I'm not sure what you mean when you say that Magnus had a daemonic familiar or the sky full of eyes (don't remember that in 1k Sons, might have forgotten it).  I just don't want to deal with something like in the Collected Visions book, which (if I remember correctly) had Magnus rolling out to meet Russ and being all chaotic (the book mentions the horns on Magnus' armor were moving on their own).  A Thousand Sons covers the events at Prospero rather well, far better than Prospero Burns I'd say, and I'd prefer that any additional fluff on the matter would simply add more detail, and not change the basic facts (which is two nominally loyal legions being tricked into fighting each other, and Tzeentch pulling the rug out from under the Sons midway through the fighting).

 

Every time I hear about the HH series touching on the Wolves or the events on Prospero, I get worried that we'll end up with bad fanfic retconning things to improve the image of the Wolves.  So we'll suddenly end up with the story of how Russ argued long and hard against Horus' orders to burn Prospero, and it was only due to the combined efforts of Valdor and Horus that he reluctantly went along with it, and even then he did everything possible to resolve things peacefully and the orbital bombardment that started the battle was actually a mistake or something.

 

And if A-D-B needs an alibi, I'm all over it.

[Greyall]

Damn, I meant 'Betrayal', not 'Betrayer'. Already corrected the previous post, sorry, man.

 

I think you're in luck regarding the Wolves being polished just to look good. Right now, in the latest Scar story,

 

 

Russ just found out he has been duped by Horus (don't think he mentions Valdor, not sure, though personally I'd question why the Emperor's chief Custodian's orders match those of the Arch-Traitor) and is having a bit of a breakdown, from what accounts I've read.

 

 

Besides, Thousand Sons made an excellent job of portraying the Wolves as Behemoth Class A-holes who spit on the ground the Thousand Sons walk at every chance. And who are only too happy to deploy and start their chainswords.

 

The daemon companions were brilliant little "fairies" that accompanied the main Thousand Sons captains, acting has amplifiers. They're harmless throughout most of the story. Then they stop being harmless and things take a nosedive pretty instantly. The sky with eyes was one the tricks Magnus employed after he decided to fight the Wolves. It makes Space Marines crazy faster than seeing the Emperor cosplay Pokemon.

[Kol Saresk]

 

To be honest, if that happens than I fear for the Wolves. The worst the BL authors can do is make them hypocrites. GW has a habit of taking worse case scenarios and making them even worse.

I don't think that new codeci, supplements, or the FW book will help this debate any. Codex fluff is almost always written to fluff the subject of the codex, and can often just ignore other fluff that's been written on the subject; and the FW book will probably be written from the viewpoint of the Imperium, so it will have that bias baked in. Remember how the Death Guard suddenly became more sinister once they joined their primarch? No idea where that came from, the HH BL books mention nothing of the sort, and the limited information we have on Death Guard make them seem like relatively nice enough (for Astartes in 30k); but in Betrayal, it's all whispers of darkness and whatnot. So chances are that the Wolf codex will talk about dark sorcery and daemonic powers all over the Razing of Prospero even though the novels have none of that going on, and any supplement on the 1k Sons will be totally dependent on the fan status of the author. They could just go ahead and create a secret Tzeentch cult in the legion just because. The good and bad thing with GW is that they let fans work on their favorite faction. Upside is that you do get someone who is really interested in whatever project they're on. Down side is that the odds of getting horrible Mary-Sue fanfic go way up.

 

Well, I did say "if". :P

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know that Vulkan destroying that population was reason for a conscience-ache.

It's heartache-y to Vulkan because it is Vulkan. as far as I know, he's the only 40K charact I've heard that has continual doubts about e moments when he had to kill people. He has today's viewpoints on things and today's hypocrisy concerning those events.

[The Acid Dog]

@Greyall,

I couldn't say I'd have done it, either. But I must also admit that I can't be so presumptuous as to say I wouldn't have. I can't fairly judge him if I can't say with certainty what I would have done in his place, can I?

I did get a look into his head, though, so I can take a guess at what he thought. And how he (and the Emperor!) judged the act is all that really matters.

@kol-saresk

Considering that guy pressed the nuclear button on the population of an entire planet, I think you're giving him a bit too much credit by saying he has today's viewpoints. No one in the history of mankind has EVER done that.

[Greyall]

True, but still, he IS the most morally sound of all the Primarchs, along with Sanguinius. Ah, 40K...why have a moral compass when there's the Astronomicon?

 

Eventually we'll be getting "The Master of Mankind", ADB's book about the Emperor. I'd be surprised if he hasn't stopped a good few times during the writing to think of the flamestorms he'll be generating. A book about the Thrice-Father of the Year, Mr. I Do What I Must? It'll be hell...

[Peter the Hermit]

 

 

 

While we know how things transpired leading to Prospero, the Wolves have far more propaganda material with which to tell a mighty tale. You have Thousand Sons Captains using their powers in completely reckless ways, to the point of turning into monsters or blowing up a crater inside their own city, said Primarchs being accompanied by Daemon familiars, their Primarch summoning a sky made of eyes, their Primarch starting the whole thing by torpedoing into the Emperor's potty room...

Most of the BL books have the advantage of being written as 'being there', with the old third-person omniscient thing.  Betrayer has the added advantage of having a good author.

 

The Wolves do have more propaganda material, true.  Though I'm not sure what you mean when you say that Magnus had a daemonic familiar or the sky full of eyes (don't remember that in 1k Sons, might have forgotten it).  I just don't want to deal with something like in the Collected Visions book, which (if I remember correctly) had Magnus rolling out to meet Russ and being all chaotic (the book mentions the horns on Magnus' armor were moving on their own).  A Thousand Sons covers the events at Prospero rather well, far better than Prospero Burns I'd say, and I'd prefer that any additional fluff on the matter would simply add more detail, and not change the basic facts (which is two nominally loyal legions being tricked into fighting each other, and Tzeentch pulling the rug out from under the Sons midway through the fighting).

 

Every time I hear about the HH series touching on the Wolves or the events on Prospero, I get worried that we'll end up with bad fanfic retconning things to improve the image of the Wolves.  So we'll suddenly end up with the story of how Russ argued long and hard against Horus' orders to burn Prospero, and it was only due to the combined efforts of Valdor and Horus that he reluctantly went along with it, and even then he did everything possible to resolve things peacefully and the orbital bombardment that started the battle was actually a mistake or something.

You mean like completely retconning the index astartes to make SW look like deluded, superstitious, hypocrictical idiots and Russ the wimpiest deluded Executioner, while TS were presented as good and loyal ? WOW, and still you are afraid that BL will show SW in a good light...? I'm sorry but this is too petty to even comment...

[Greyall]

Where was that done? You mean 'A Thousand Sons'?

[Peter the Hermit]

Yes...

 

To
be honest, if that happens than I fear for the Wolves. The worst the BL
authors can do is make them hypocrites. GW has a habit of taking worse
case scenarios and making them even worse.

Absolutely true....

[Greyall]

I saw nothing so one-sided in 'TS'. Yes, the Wolves were insufferable and overeager to go to town on Magnus' kids, but they ended up being right...sort of. As Russ and Wyrdmake pointed, the Thousand Sons were dabbling too much and too deep on sorcery. They were a ticking bomb who carried torches around just in case they didn't feel like waiting.

 

Yes, the Wolves were shown to be hypocritical (in a universe at war where everyone is - doesn't excuse but it doesn't make them exceptional jerks, either), superstitious (which is part of their traits as traditionalists and home-bound). Russ was an overeager man, but he seems to have noticed that, as of the lattest developments. If the previous fluff is anything to go by, he'll be a much more rational character.

[Peter the Hermit]

I'm afraid for him, really...

 

I'mean in the old days of WD Russ was presented as legendary (along with Dorn), but now he is a circus freak...In my humble opinion ofc...

 

Sorry, I get to emotional when your childhood hero becomes a bit character messy...

[Kol Saresk]

Well, no offense, but the IA articles are written by Imperial historians who are trying to construct records of events from basically ashes. It's a miracle GW didn't decide to gag us by black lining most of it and throw Inquisitorial Seal stamps all over it. So yeah, they would show somehow the Ecclesiarchy views as a literal demi-god as, well, a demi-god.

[Conn Eremon]

That's too bad, Peter. As a Space Wolf fan, I freaking love the current Russ. Before he was plain. Just a name attributed to vague, unlikely legends. Now we're seeing the truth behind the legends and it is awesome.

[Greyall]

Russ is a legend, insofar as you can make a legend out of someone who you 'intimately' know. No Primarch - hell, much less the Emperor - will come out of the HH novel series unscathed. Look at the White Scars, they haven't decided whose side to join yet - now that's a true problem.

 

Russ is mentioned by everyone as an exceptional warrior, a tremendous leader of men and general and as being very competent. Sure, he's referred to as savage, but that's mostly from detractors or those Primarchs who differ most from him. And, if nothing else will do, nowadays the Wolves are probably the most respected 40K Chapter, being counted on to do the right thing and think for themselves.