Rune Priests and Psychic Nulls

[Conn Eremon]

It was just another hint at Hawser's true nature. It's sprinkled all across the book. We're supposed to think, by the end of the book, that maybe they weren't reacting out of ignorance and superstitious fear. But it only makes us doubt our initial conclusion. It doesn't actually say what the case is. We're just supposed to think "maybe . . ."

[Wade Garrett]

Didn't the tribe that initially took him in also have a shaman, who didn't call for Hawser's immediate execution?

 

Meh. Is Warhammer 4...30k. Simply foregoing any kind of logic and reasoning to jump straight to "It's maleficarum! Kill them all!" will turn out to be the right answer roughly 50% of the time.

[Conn Eremon]

I seem to recall one shaman being described as not having the true talents of others. It was a primitive description that sounded like he might not be a psyker, but still the shaman.

 

I might be stretching here, but that might have been their shaman.

[DarthMarko]

Off topic -

Guys, I'm glad we finally have a civil discussion about RP and I enjoy reading it...Well, except Dave lashing blind few times (wink,wink,nod,nod)....

-

Meh. Is Warhammer 4...30k. Simply foregoing any kind of logic and reasoning to jump straight to "It's maleficarum! Kill them all!" will turn out to be the right answer roughly 50% of the time.

This is the universal truth...For further evidence check BT sub-forum....

[daveNYC]

It was just another hint at Hawser's true nature.

 

That's the best part of the whole scheme when you think about it.  Hawser's true nature is bait.  By the end of the book, the only thing that we see as having been done to him by team Tzeentch is the creation of his desire to go to Fenris and study the Wolves.  The Wolves are the ones who assume that he's an agent of Magnus, and adjust their behavior accordingly.

[Greyall]

Didn't the Wolves act completely natural while Hawser was there?

[Kol Saresk]

Depends on how you define natural. IIRC, they were doing everything they could to look..... well fierce is the word that comes to mind. Not saying they aren't, but there's a point when you act natural and then you act too natural. If I recall correctly, they were somewhere in the middle.

[Conn Eremon]

They felt like they were being observed by their foes. The act of observation always changes the observed. The Wolves wanted their foes to see how uncaring they were of the espionage. That they felt themselves so much in the right and so likely to win that it just didn't matter. So they actively involved the individual who delivers their message.

 

They were just wrong on who was on the other end.

[Greyall]

Whew, if you look at it, the Wolves have fallen big time, as well. Will be interesting to see the state of Russ' mind at this point. Scars shows him to be

a bit humbled, it seems

 

[frostclaw222]

There is a difference between a psyker and a sorcerer in 40K, and (one would assume) 30K. 

 

I think, in 30k, that line was very blurry, but by M41, we see a much clearer representation of it. Early Eisenhorn is just a psyker. His ultimate opponent in the Eisenhorn trilogy has crossed the line into sorcery. We can debate where that line is, and what defines crossing it til Russ comes back from the Eye, but that's not necessary, so long as we agree that the line exists. 

 

In 30K, the Wolves (if we accept Wyrdmake's statements as candid) seem to have some internal idea as to where that line is--right or wrong--and that that internal idea is based on the folklore of Fenris. One aspect, according to Wyrdmake, is control, both in scope of power and expression of that power. Now, Ahriman also thinks he's got control, but his control is based on the cooperation of his tutelary. When that tutelary turns, his control begins to erode, as it does for his brother Sons. However, despite all the nasty warpcraft being flung about, the Rune Priests don't start fleshchanging or lighting up with warpflame themselves (though we do see some spontaneous wulfen creation). This would imply that on some level, the Fenrisian definition of the line was close to valid, or that the nearby presence of the Sisters of Silence somehow shielded them. 

 

This does not, however (and I'm a Wolves player) let the Wolves off the hypocrisy hook. The last part of the Emperor's prohibition specifically bans any and all psyker activity, not just those of Librarians. 

 

As I see it, that only leaves a few possibilities as to why the Wolves still had active Rune Priests:

 

1) Someone (the Emperor or, since post-Magnus-gram he was busy, Malcador, who's already starting to make some independent moves, like setting up a group of 'inquisitive types') tells the Wolves at some point off-stage that the Edict doesn't apply to them.

 

2) There's a pre-standing exemption for the Wolves, as the Emperor's executioners (which pre-supposes that they are in fact duly appointed by him, and not self-appointed). 

 

3) The Wolves honestly believe their power is wholly and completely different (which cannot actually be true, or Ahriman and Othere would've had nothing to share with each other in terms of cross-training). 

 

4) Russ, like Angron, just doesn't care. Unlike Angron, Russ doesn't experiment on his psykers' brains, and keeps more than a handful of them alive. This doesn't work because Russ seems to be convinced that his Rune Priests are in fact different, and that the Edict did not in fact apply to them. Add to that the fact that Russ never once seems to waver in his loyalty to Terra, and this possibility falls apart. 

 

 

To be perfectly frank, I think the Wolves still using Rune Priests can be laid at Malcador's feet. I have no direct evidence to support this claim, but the more I've thought about it, the more it makes sense. After Magnus wrecks the Terran webway portal, the Emperor has zero time to muck about with realspace politics, and full proxy power for affairs in the mortal realm devolves to the Sigilite. The Sigilite, being a psyker himself, has at times held vastly different opinions and policies from the Emperor (those who've read the entirety of the Heresy novels can find examples of this pretty easily), and he might've seen the Wolves and their more restrained/restricted use of psyker abilities as a necessary ace in the hole should the Edict be violated. This would also allow for an explanation as to why units of Wolves started showing up near primarchs still thought to be loyal around the time and just after the Burning of Prospero--they were called upon to do so by someone who knew they would be willing and able to tap into their psykers' abilities to have a better chance of taking down a rogue primarch. And if they were ordered to do so by someone who knew or authorized their usage of those powers after the Edict, things suddenly go from confusing to tidy. 

 

This hypothesis, if true, would provide for the Wolves' sense of "separate and permitted" without any purblind hypocrisy. It would also add fuel to the idea that their way was righteous, while Magnus's was still egregious witchcraft. Plus it would clear up the plot dissonance, that one legion still operating psykers goes after another legion for still operating psykers. On top of that, their special exemption would likely be something of a secret, which would explain the primarch-watch-squad secrecy we saw at Cygnus.

 

Malcador was a powerful psyker, but he was still a mortal, with all the flaws that came with mortality. And without the Emperor to guide and approve his decisions, he was definitely fallible. 

 

The trouble with this explanation is that it again elevates the Wolves to "special snowflake legion," and even I don't like that. But the Wolves may not have been chosen for this duty because they were the Emperor's chosen executioner legion, nor because they were the most loyal or whatever else. It may have been the Wolves that were exempted because Malcador or the Emperor looked at the Wolves' understanding of the line between psyker and sorcerer, and judged them the least likely to fall prey to the very things they and the Emperor were worried about with Magnus and his sons, based on how they viewed the difference between the two. 

 

As for why the Stormseers of the White Scars weren't also exempted, since their shamanistic practices resemble those of the Rune Priests, I'd guess then that it had to do with the fact that, as part of the Librarius program, they had received tutors at some point in the past from the Thousand Sons, and therefore, were likely potentially more tainted due to association. It could also have to do with the fact that they backed Magnus's request to let the Librarius continue, and therefore were a subject of more concern, while the Wolves were all for shuttering the Librarius for good. 

 

As for Rune Priest and pariahs:

 

My understanding is that most pariahs project a null zone, and that that zone is at most twenty meters or so in radius. In that zone, most psyker abilities, including those of daemonhosts, are fully negated, and that those within that null zone are protected likewise due to proximity. Pariahs also cast no shadow in the warp, so one would imagine they also confer this warp-stealth to those near them, and would thereby shield Russ from Magnus's farseeing. However, there are other types of pariahs, like the black pariah, which are worse/better than regular pariahs, though we've only ever seen one of these, and that one was apparently a very special and unique case. 

 

All of this being said, in the early chapters of A Thousand Sons, we actually see Magnus's power break through a null zone. In fact, we see him burn the null zone down, so that his sons can actually use their craft where before they could not, and their tutelaries were forced back into the warp and were unavailable. This, and the fact that a null can have his ability compromised and eroded away (as a pariah in a certain Inquisition trilogy does), seems to suggest that pariahs' null zones can be overcome by extremely powerful psykers, such as uniquely powerful greater daemons or primarch class psykers. That suggests that there isn't just a range to the null zone, but a depth or degree of null-ness to the null zone of each pariah, and that it isn't something that's an all or nothing effect, with the null zone being an absolute block on the warp. 

 

Just my thoughts on this thread. Thought I'd contribute. Hope I provided some common ground and some new (acceptable) ideas, and didn't stir the pot. 

[daveNYC]

What nulls offer in terms of being able to hide isn't that great. It's not so much a cloak of invisibility, more like a opaque blanket that covers everything near it. Psykers use the warp to see what's behind the blanket, but they can definitely see that the blanket is there. The attack on Prospero has Thousand Sons detecting and eliminating the Sisters of Silence by scanning the battlefield with their powers and then focusing their Mk 1 eyeballs and firepower on areas where their warp senses were blinded. Better than eating a lighting bolt though.

 

Word Bearers : Custodes :: Space Wolves : Hawser. At least in my opinion.

 

Among the other items that I have frothed at the mouth over in regards to Prospero Burns, I wish they had gone into some level of detail concerning just why the Wolves are so concerned about maleficarum, and why they believe that the Sons have crossed the line. At Nikea, Mortarion says he's fought against crazy magic stuff, and doesn't want the Imperium getting anywhere close to the stuff. Russ and the Wolves never have their motivation explained. Is it just due to Fenris' culture? Did they have some nasty throwdown with sorcerers during the crusade? Did a Rune Priest go bad, either in the civilian population or in the Legion, and they're so shaken by the results that they are on edge about any of that psyker shiz?

 

There's numerous reasons for the two legions to dislike each other, tactics, culture, goals, primarchs' personalities; why is it that the use of psyker powers is what's driving the conflict?

[Greyall]

Just a detail: the Thousand Son who snipes the sisters in the novel does it through his tutelaire, using it as his 'Eye in the sky', if memory serves. Might've combined the two methods, not completely sure, but I remember him using the little guy.

 

Not every Legion aspect has to be born out of trauma. Russ has a strong martial sense and is very traditionalistic, whereas the Thousand Sons, to him, are poor warriors who're delving in risky business irresponsibly.

[daveNYC]

Just a detail: the Thousand Son who snipes the sisters in the novel does it through his tutelaire, using it as his 'Eye in the sky', if memory serves. Might've combined the two methods, not completely sure, but I remember him using the little guy.

 

Not every Legion aspect has to be born out of trauma. Russ has a strong martial sense and is very traditionalistic, whereas the Thousand Sons, to him, are poor warriors who're delving in risky business irresponsibly.

 

That'd work for me too, it's just that since this baseline of distrust is what allows Horus to change the orders from capture to kill, I feel that it should have been explored in the book.

[Conn Eremon]

That would have killed it, though. The whole point was that the trust was so absolute that it wasn't questioned. Exploring that trust through a Space Wolf-centric point of view would have made it harder to swallow and believe. Keeping it as it is was better.

[daveNYC]

The series has covered the motivations of Lorgar, Horus, Magnus, Alpharius, Angron, Fulgrim. and Perturabo, but detailing the reason for the Wolves' distrust of psykers and by extension the Thousand Suns beyond "because shut up, that's why" is going to be hard to believe?

 

Look at the discussion of The Lion and his various issues.  Would the character (as poorly handled as he has been by the various authors) be better if we were introduced mid-crusade (and not knowing any of the background that we do about him) and ended up reading about his various adventures in gaining political support for his campaign for Warmaster and his 'hands-on' approach towards dissension in his ranks?  Not to mention that he is the only primarch to have used charisma as a dump stat.

[Wade Garrett]

The series has covered the motivations of Lorgar, Horus, Magnus, ALPHARIUS, Angron, Fulgrim. and Perturabo....

Ha ha ha ha bwah ha ha ho ho ho NO.

[Grimtooth]

Spoilers for the prologue section of Prospero Burns:

 

 

The story opens with Hawser stuck in a crashed Imperial lander on Fenris. A couple of locals come up and rescue him. They take him back to their village and a little while later, the other villages show up looking for blood. Rough upshot is that they saw the crashing lander, and figured it as an omen of woe or a sign of a malefacarum. Slaughter results, Hawser and his buds make a break for it in an ice boat. The ice boat is chased, crashes, and before our narrator comes to an untimely end, the Wolves roll in and rescue everyone. It turns out that the guy in charge of the orbital defenses had forgotten to turn on the IFF system or something, so it's his fault that the lander went down.

 

As written, it's a screw up by the Space Wolves that led to events that triggered extreme violence simply due to the locals beliefs. Adding in some magic instinct that allowed the locals to sense the Tzeentch influence on Hawser changes things so the tragedy isn't the superstition fueled loss of life, the tragedy is the fact they didn't manage to kill everyone. Plus it would give the locals magic chaos sensing powers, which is just plain old bad.

 

It isn't my fluff that says rune priest powers are based in their countless centuries of shamanistic rituals and practices, that is GW. GW put forth the premise that Fenrisian are inherently fearful and attuned to maleficarum. With latent psykers apparent across a number of worlds, you are just being a SW hater to say that they wouldn't be on Fenris.

 

And it was Bjorn himself thay shot down Hawser and I was Bjorn who was tasked with retrieving him.

[Kol Saresk]

Wait, I recall in A Thousand Sons when Wyrdmake made the claim that the Rune Priests believed their powers came from the rituals, but I don't recall GW saying it? Am I missing something?

[depthcharge12]

Back on the topic of nulls, I found myself rereading flight of the eisenstein.

 

Towards the end (pg 402 in my book), Malcador steps out of the shadows to talk to Garro and the witchseeker [Amendera Kendel] recoils from his prescence, "as if she were afraid to be close to him".

 

Now I want to say that could suggest that nulls may be overridden by more powerful psykers (mal is like 2nd or 3rd bestest) and may suggest that power levels may come into their own against nulls.

 

However however however for those of you who doubt, it could just be that he has an intimidating prescense and has the imperium at his fingertips, but i would like to think that this would be wrong because the nulls didnt act this way towards the jorgall psyker or towards decius in his nurgle corrupted form.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, I know earlier I said that the nulls just projected places that the warp could not exist. But then I started talking about the installation from The Serpent Beneath. Just an idea, but what if the nulls are just people who naturally repel the warp in a similar manner to how psykers attract the warp? I mean, think about it. The Alpha Legion installation had the ability to calm the warp to the point that travel was impossible in the calmness while everything it "pushed" away create a barrier of warp storms surrounding the area. Like the eye of storm. Except in the case of the null, the null is the eye while the immediate area surrounding puts the warp into such a state of flux that it becomes impossible to use(except theoretically for individuals who are able to overpower the storm) in a certain radius. An idea?

[GhostMalone]

I like it, it also explains how the necrons settled the area around cadia with the pylons. Everything in the material realm has an opposite so surely not only blanks or pariahs but naturally occurring materials within the material dimension must be able to negate/ undo warp taint or warp drawn power

[Marshal Rohr]

Kol you've never read anything about it coming from rituals because it doesn't exist. It's his own idea.

[Kol Saresk]

Marshal2 Crusaders, on 28 Aug 2013 - 19:24, said:

Kol you've never read anything about it coming from rituals because it doesn't exist. It's his own idea.

Well, technically yes. And no. Sorcery/Shamanism/Enuncia(The name does not matter; here it is the method that makes the difference) in 40K is just a means of accessing the warp without having to be a psyker. We see examples of this with the Dark Apostles, many of whom are not psykers, but through rituals and daemonic pacts, they are able to draw forth the warp, when Molotch uses Enuncia to heal himself and when Oll Persson(who currently has no recorded powers) uses an athame that has been around since at least the early ADs to slice open passages in order to travel from place to place and time to time. It can even be claimed that Kor Phaeron and Erebus use sorcery, not psychic abilities, although it is entirely possible that they are just hiding it like Typhon did, although in the Word Bearers there would have been no need for them to hide such abilities.

 

Now, earlier, I mentioned that in sorcery/shamanism/whatchamacallit, the method does matter. Prime example is Enuncia. Enuncia is an ancient language that has the potential to warp the very fabric of reality. It is a tool and like any tool, it has no nature. Whether it is a tool for good or a weapon for evil depends entirely on the user. Sort of like whether an e-tool is used to dig trenches or to clean them of enemies. It is neutral. It can be a tool of Chaos or a tool against Chaos. Much in the same way pyrokinesis can be used to help a daemonic assault, or to help hinder the same daemonic assault. IIRC, Hawser used a single word to destroy a Nurglite Daemon during the Razing of Prospero.

 

Rituals. Again, rituals are unique to the user and the purpose. But the method has a world of difference. Casting runes or using the Emperor's Tarot is no different than using intestines to foresee the future. But, the method makes all the difference. Casting runes does not necessarily call the attention of the Dark Gods, nor does it draw their power, unless the user so decides to do so. The Emperor's Tarot calls upon the Emperor, even if only in name. I'm not saying the Star Child fluff of old, just that when using the Emperor's Tarot for divination, the user is calling upon a power that is not the Dark Gods. Whether or not the power belongs to the Emperor, I cannot say. However, human sacrifice to do divination is an act which automatically calls the Gods' attention, regardless of whether or not the user decided to.

 

Other rituals are more commonly seen being used by the Word Bearers when they find a place of power, and then use sacrifices and objects of significance(such as an athame) to use or pervert that power. Sometimes, the ritual is to pervert or wield the power of the object. In Conquest of Armageddon, an example of this is when some of the surviving World Eaters found one of the menhirs(the place of power) and then started killing each other in sacrifice(which served as both the sacrifice and the object of significance as Khorne wants blood.

 

Our last example is daemonic pacts. These are exactly what they sound like. Make a pact with a daemon in order to gain power. We see this with the Thousand Sons and their tutelaries, Marduk and Drak'shall(sp?) and Ramius Stele and Malfallax. Daemonic pacts can be used to artificially augment psychic powers or to act as substitutes. There is no method here. A daemonic pact is a daemonic pact. There is no way to get this wrong, unless you are like the early Thousand Sons and are ignorant of the true nature of daemons.

 

Essentially, while the Rune Priests may only be sorcerers in the loosest stretch of the word(I have to emphasize that, the Rune Priests are not, repeat ARE NOT, Chaos Sorcerers), Wyrdmake wouldn't be wrong in saying the rituals acts as sources of power. The only error would be that contrary to his statement, the power does not come from Fenris. It still comes from the warp, but most likely from the same place the Emperor's Tarot draws power from, possibly the Astronomicon as that is a beacon that is connected directly to the Emperor in some form or fashion.

[Blacksad]

think it's also important to remember that the warp in itself isn't inherently evil... t's just "the underworld". The reason that the evil is so strong and present there, is because it's present in the material world aswell

[Conn Eremon]

Careful now. That's some Thousand Sons talk right there, boy.