Rune Priests and Psychic Nulls

[Blacksad]

no, it isn't. read the fluff. The Warp in and on itself is not evil, is not good, it simply is. the creatures hunting souls in the warp, and making deals with moronic psychers who believe they can control and master them are evil. big difference.

[Kol Saresk]

That and as reaction between the Immaterium and the Materium are usually not good for the Materium. So any and all benevolent warp beings would not interfere with the Materium on the basis that they are benevolent and it is that nature that prevents their overall reaction. After all, it is old background that when a servant of Chaos ascends to daemonhood, some of them go into the warp to fight a different war. That war has to be against someone. If daemons are real, then why not the angels?

[Kol Saresk]

I am not saying that the Thousand Sons and Rune Priests are the same. There is a world of difference in terms of not only beliefs, but methods. I do agree their power is the same, it is just how they use the power that separates them.

[Conn Eremon]

You want to know why I call that Thousand Sons talk? Because that's the exact, utterly exact, same attitude the Sons had. They were proven horrifically wrong.

 

And Kol, they fight each other. It's a free for all in there, alliances made only to break the strength of the ascendant

[Kol Saresk]

You want to know why I call that Thousand Sons talk? Because that's the exact, utterly exact, same attitude the Sons had. They were proven horrifically wrong.

Not exactly. They believed the entirety of the warp, including the creatures that live, could be tamed, controlled and used. Power from the warp can and has been shown to be controlled. Psykers are evidence of that. It is the daemons which fight, scratch and claw against all forms of control bound upon them by those who would seek to control them.

 

And Kol, they fight each other. It's a free for all in there, alliances made only to break the strength of the ascendant

Not all the time though. The Heresy is a prime example of that.

[Conn Eremon]

Not just that, though. They fundamentally believed that there was good in the Warp. Magnus himself actually thought he was being benefited by one such entity when he was given that extra push to break through to Terra. Their entire approach to the Warp and their use of it was predicated on the genuine belief that it's not all that bad. That's what burned them.

 

You're right about the Heresy, but it was brief, still rife with internal conflict and an exceptional . . . Well, exception.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, the warp reflects the entirety of the emotional spectrum. In the Gaunt's Ghosts series, there is a living Saint who sprouts wings of lights, and takes on and defeats a very powerful servant of Chaos. Her power came from somewhere. And if that living saint serves as an example of all the living saints, they are either all Perpetuals(highly doubtful since the girl started out as someone else and believed she was someone else until she was possessed with some power that was aligned against Chaos), or there are benevolent being who wait for the right, willing(I feel this is the optimum word here) applicant who the being then possess. Sort of like Supernatural where the Angels can only take willing vessels, rather than just brute-force approach the same way the demons can. If the warp truly is a reflection of the entire spectrum, where there is "evil", there must also be "good". And like I said, the good/benevolence simply does not interfere on the scale that Chaos does for the reasons that too much interference results in damaging the material realm and if they truly are benevolent, then that is the reason they would not come to the material realm except in the situations they can do so.

[Wade Garrett]

Foolishness, foolishness.

 

The warp is where every moment of depravity, despair, rage, and ambition manifests as POWER, where the souls of the dead go to burn forever. All that it touches, it twists, even those bred to navigate its tides. The Eldar thought they could command it like some mere force, as if it were nothing but electricity or magnetism, and they were full paid for such hubris.

 

The Corpse Emperor thought he could succeed where they faltered, with his Webways and his New Men. His punishment was more severe yet.

 

You who would draw power from the Warp, submit thyself to the Four, and accept that you are the clay, not the potter. Only in such humility is the beginning of wisdom.

[Kol Saresk]

And yet, there are the Old Ones who created the Eldar, Orks and even Humans. And as far as we can tell, they did succeed in controlling the warp.

[Wade Garrett]

And yet, there are the Old Ones who created the Eldar, Orks and even Humans. And as far as we can tell, they did succeed in controlling the warp.

And yet we don't see very many of them around in M42, do we?

 

Their Warp eschewing rivals the necrontyr, yes, but not them. Wherever could they have gone?

[Conn Eremon]

The Old Ones did their thing before the Warp became as it is. Going by the old Shaman fluff, of the Emperor's origins, the moment when the Warp began to shift more and more heavily to one side was at some point in the past ten thousand years.

[Wade Garrett]

Wasn't it the Old Ones trying to use the Warp as a weapon that birth the void predators that would become daemons and eventually Chaos Gods? Because if so, they're hardly a good example of responsible Warp power use.

[Grimtooth]

Kol you've never read anything about it coming from rituals because it doesn't exist. It's his own idea.

Wrong on Wolves lore yet again..

 

Codex SW, page 36

 

"Often marked by the gods even before their induction into the Space Wolves, they are learned in shamanic traditions that a mere tribesman could never truly comprehend. Theirs is the knowledge of the mystic arts, hidden rites handed down throughout the millenia that consumes their days and haunt their nights."

 

We also have the application of the wards in Battle of the Fang, the warding eye placed on bows of the Ascommii boats, and used by rune priests, and even normal members of the Wolves to signify danger and/or maleficarum. The tribal shamans even marked the tribesman sent to kill Hawser and the Ascommii.

 

Now to say that is not ritualistic in nature would be completely wrong. Even the application of runes and wards to armor, weapons, and objects would be completely ritualistic in nature to provide the power they contain. Even the somewhat simple act of casting the runes such as Wyrndrake showing Ahriman would be steeped in ritual from the past.

[GhostMalone]

It's along the same lines as hexagram in wards used by grey knights and colchisian script used on word bearers.

[frostclaw222]

Okay, a few things:

 

1) Per my model (which, I'll admit, is open to assault), Enuncia isn't sorcery. It's something more elemental and wholly separate. It's literally the phonetic structure of the underpinnings of the multiverse. These are the charms of making and unmaking here. The Last Word, as it were, as well as all the Truest Words. Supposedly, anyone with the proper discipline (and, one would assume, linguistic training) can learn portions of Enuncia and use it, though the power means even proper usage is dangerous, with improper usage potentially being lethal. 

 

2) While I will not argue that there could be ritualism (or certain proscribed forms or heretical, forbidden types of archeotech) that allows for warp manipulation without a psyker's gift, it's my impression that the Thousand Sons used their psyker gifts to power the majority of their sorcery, augmented as it was by their tutelaries. I would definitely say that all or close to all Thousand Sons sorcerers were in fact psykers to one degree or another, but that others, like Erebus, seem to rely strictly on rituals to invoke their power, manipulating the warp without any internal gift of their own. This perspective also allows for the proscribed texts that the various Ordos (but particular Ordo Malleus) are always hunting down. 

 

3) While there is a superficial similarity in the Fenrisian mysticism and the occult practices of the Thousand Sons (and subsequent chaos sorcerers, to be sure), upon closer examination, they appear to be directly opposed, possibly even antithetical philosophically speaking. The Sons of Magnus use their ritualism to augment and enhance their channeling of the warp. The Rune Priests and those primitive shamans of the Fenrisian tribes, however, seem to view their ritualism as a constrained conduit. It's the difference between blowing a hole in a damn and turning on a faucet incrementally. When viewed in this way, this might in fact explain how the two groups of practitioners can have so similar occult approaches and yet view each other with so much disdain. 

 

In short, the Thousand Sons use their rituals as shortcuts to unlock the Great Ocean, and use it to add power to their own innate abilities, while the Rune Priests view that as perilous and suicidal, and instead sip sparingly, channeling the power they draw from the warp through a series of ritualistic filters, dampening its effectiveness, but keeping the risk of psyker-possession to a minimum. This could also suggest an explanation for the flamboyance and variety of applications that the Sons have as well as the primitive, primal, elemental expressions of power demonstrated by the Rune Priests, despite Wyrdmake seeming to have a much more mature understanding of more complex concepts of warpcraft, despite not taking those concepts and applying them through his manipulation of the warp. This also fits with the noble, but restrained savagery of the Wolves as depicted in M30-M31, that they realize and have a healthy fear for the powers at their fingertips, and yet somehow view their use as less dangerous. 

 

Whether that is true or not is open to conjecture. We have thus far in the HH literature one Rune Priest who fell prey to daemonic possession, and he only fell due to direct telepathic interface with a greater daemon of some sort, thinking it was Magnus, and in order to achieve his ends, he left himself open. However, if you look at the Wolves and the Sons in this way, it explains a great deal of their superficial resemblance and their unabiding disdain for one another. Not only that, it's a fairly common trope. I mean, this, boiled down a bit, is similar to the Jedi/Sith dualism in Star Wars, or the alternative magical system from the Dark Sun 2E AD&D setting, where you had Defilers and Preservers, one channeling in a way that literally scorched the earth and allowed for easier, more powerful effects, the other doing so in a way that was safer but less immediately powerful. 

 

The Wolves used ritual as filters and narrow pipes, seeking to mitigate the risk; the Thousand Sons used ritual as a way to tap directly into the Ocean, oblivious to that same risk and embracing it. The Sons would look at the Wolves as tying their hands behind their backs, and the Wolves would see the Sons as being heedless of the dangers and the definition of reckless and dangerous. 

[Greyall]

The 40K is a little different as far as amulets go. Supposedly (actually, this is pretty much stated), the Emperor has really become a sort of god, increasing his presence in the Warp not only to power the Astronomicon, but to give a little nudge to humans in order to steer them in the right direction and bless those who need him. With this in mind, In 30K the Emperor was much more discrete. He may have tried to use the Eldar's webway - which made a lot of sense - but otherwise he was pretty careful with the Warp. Nothing like the Space Elves/Bunnies.

 

A lot of things could power an amulet, it largely depends on who's doing it.

 

Loyalists: 30K - their own power; 40K - their own power or the Emperor

 

Traitors and untrained psykers: their own power or magic (either through regular psychic contact or, in case of non-psykers, magic)

 

For shamans and such, it really can be a problem. If a non-psyker tries to craft an amulet or ward, he could end up using magic. The trick, I think, is the mindset of the crafter, but even then the wrong entity could answer a magic ritual.

[daveNYC]

Okay, a few things:

 

1) Per my model (which, I'll admit, is open to assault), Enuncia isn't sorcery. It's something more elemental and wholly separate. It's literally the phonetic structure of the underpinnings of the multiverse. These are the charms of making and unmaking here. The Last Word, as it were, as well as all the Truest Words. Supposedly, anyone with the proper discipline (and, one would assume, linguistic training) can learn portions of Enuncia and use it, though the power means even proper usage is dangerous, with improper usage potentially being lethal. 

 

2) While I will not argue that there could be ritualism (or certain proscribed forms or heretical, forbidden types of archeotech) that allows for warp manipulation without a psyker's gift, it's my impression that the Thousand Sons used their psyker gifts to power the majority of their sorcery, augmented as it was by their tutelaries. I would definitely say that all or close to all Thousand Sons sorcerers were in fact psykers to one degree or another, but that others, like Erebus, seem to rely strictly on rituals to invoke their power, manipulating the warp without any internal gift of their own. This perspective also allows for the proscribed texts that the various Ordos (but particular Ordo Malleus) are always hunting down. 

 

3) While there is a superficial similarity in the Fenrisian mysticism and the occult practices of the Thousand Sons (and subsequent chaos sorcerers, to be sure), upon closer examination, they appear to be directly opposed, possibly even antithetical philosophically speaking. The Sons of Magnus use their ritualism to augment and enhance their channeling of the warp. The Rune Priests and those primitive shamans of the Fenrisian tribes, however, seem to view their ritualism as a constrained conduit. It's the difference between blowing a hole in a damn and turning on a faucet incrementally. When viewed in this way, this might in fact explain how the two groups of practitioners can have so similar occult approaches and yet view each other with so much disdain. 

 

In short, the Thousand Sons use their rituals as shortcuts to unlock the Great Ocean, and use it to add power to their own innate abilities, while the Rune Priests view that as perilous and suicidal, and instead sip sparingly, channeling the power they draw from the warp through a series of ritualistic filters, dampening its effectiveness, but keeping the risk of psyker-possession to a minimum. This could also suggest an explanation for the flamboyance and variety of applications that the Sons have as well as the primitive, primal, elemental expressions of power demonstrated by the Rune Priests, despite Wyrdmake seeming to have a much more mature understanding of more complex concepts of warpcraft, despite not taking those concepts and applying them through his manipulation of the warp. This also fits with the noble, but restrained savagery of the Wolves as depicted in M30-M31, that they realize and have a healthy fear for the powers at their fingertips, and yet somehow view their use as less dangerous. 

 

Whether that is true or not is open to conjecture. We have thus far in the HH literature one Rune Priest who fell prey to daemonic possession, and he only fell due to direct telepathic interface with a greater daemon of some sort, thinking it was Magnus, and in order to achieve his ends, he left himself open. However, if you look at the Wolves and the Sons in this way, it explains a great deal of their superficial resemblance and their unabiding disdain for one another. Not only that, it's a fairly common trope. I mean, this, boiled down a bit, is similar to the Jedi/Sith dualism in Star Wars, or the alternative magical system from the Dark Sun 2E AD&D setting, where you had Defilers and Preservers, one channeling in a way that literally scorched the earth and allowed for easier, more powerful effects, the other doing so in a way that was safer but less immediately powerful. 

 

The Wolves used ritual as filters and narrow pipes, seeking to mitigate the risk; the Thousand Sons used ritual as a way to tap directly into the Ocean, oblivious to that same risk and embracing it. The Sons would look at the Wolves as tying their hands behind their backs, and the Wolves would see the Sons as being heedless of the dangers and the definition of reckless and dangerous. 

 

Is there any source for the idea that the Wolf's rituals are well designed to make warp access safer?  What we see of the Sons' rituals, they mostly involve rising through the levels of the enumerations, and most of those seem to be designed to purge emotion and distraction, in order to make it easier to draw and channel the warp.  And not easier as in 'blow a hole in the dam', but easier as in being able to focus all your attention on it so you don't get distracted by wondering if you left the iron on back on the battlebarge.  There's no indication in the books that the Sons' approach to using warp power (as opposed to their rather trusting approach to the warp itself) is any more dangerous that what the Wolves use.  Nor do we see signs that the Librarius programs instituted in other Legions led to heads exploding in the new recruits.

[Kol Saresk]

Frostclaw, you just repeated what I said, lol. In 30K/40K terminology, we have a predefined notion of sorcery. That notion is............ Wrong. Not entirely though. It would require a different word to describe it. But basically, that was why I repeatedly said that it was the method that mattered. The Rune Priests are worlds apart from the Thousand Sons in the rituals used, but they are rituals.

 

Do they not cast the bones to predict the best path? While it may different from riding the waves of the future with your astral body, both serve the exact same purpose. But it is the method that changes it.

 

On the note of the Librarius, I think we get so hung up on Magnus that we forget that three Primarchs and Legions contributed to its creation. Meaning that the teachings that spread to the other Legions that accepted them are more neutral in nature than what the Thousand Sons practiced due to the multiple contributions.

[Grimtooth]

@dave

 

Of the rituals that we do see being done by the Thousand Sons, you only mention the one that did not result in the mass killing of thralls tonpower the ritual. The enumerations only seem to be a mental exercise in focusing that they employ to control their own emotions and in turn their supposed control over the warp.

 

@kol

 

Noone is forgetting that the Librarius project was proposed by 3 primarchs and not just Magnus. However we do know that it was part of Magnus' greater plan of integrating psychic powers into mankind as a whole. That is why almost the entire remembrancer contingent was gifted in someway beyond their artistic abilities and ultimately why they were being trained and encouraged to use their gifts by the Thousand Sons even after the edict.

 

Psykers within the ranks of humanitiy's ultimate defenders and a contingent of psychic remembrancers to prove that delving into the use of the warp was safe and free of peril. A master plan by Magnus to bring mankind into an age of psychic awareness.

[Marshal Rohr]

That's all made up, again by you.

[daveNYC]

The only ritual that we saw involving the sacrificing of thralls was when Magnus projected himself into Horus' Chaos sponsored vision quest in order to try and stop him from turning against the Emperor.  At no other time is any sort of human sacrifice mentioned or even hinted at in the book.  And while we can all argue whether the use of human sacrifices to attempt to keep the Warmaster of the Imperiurm from falling to Chaos was a moral or ethical thing to do, I'm pretty sure we can all agree that such a ritual would be an outlier in its requirements.

[Grimtooth]

That's all made up, again by you.

So you are just in denial.  You can read A Thousand Sons with Magnus speaking about his reasons for bringing in the remembrancers into the psychic fold of the Thousand Sons and his view openly expressed for the future of mankind in regard to psychic use.

 

The only ritual that we saw involving the sacrificing of thralls was when Magnus projected himself into Horus' Chaos sponsored vision quest in order to try and stop him from turning against the Emperor.  At no other time is any sort of human sacrifice mentioned or even hinted at in the book.  And while we can all argue whether the use of human sacrifices to attempt to keep the Warmaster of the Imperiurm from falling to Chaos was a moral or ethical thing to do, I'm pretty sure we can all agree that such a ritual would be an outlier in its requirements.

Actually the second ritual involving projecting Magus also took the lives of thralls and even a Thousand Sons Astartes iirc.

[Marshal Rohr]

Telling someone they are in denial when an actually black library author has smacked down all your ideas repeatedly is more than humorous.

[Verity]

Any chance you can do me a source for the Black Library author refuting those bits about Magnus etc? I'd be interested to see it.

[Grimtooth]

Telling someone they are in denial when an actually black library author has smacked down all your ideas repeatedly is more than humorous.

This isn't about my stance on rune priests and whether or not they were sanctioned by the Emperor, follow the philosophy of the Emperor.  ADB can come in anytime he feels that he needs to run his mouth about his inside information as a BL author or as an annoyed fan of SW fans.  I will have my ideas and he can continue to say what he feels is his view, BL or his own.  This is about having the books show Magnus' vision on humanity and psychic powers.  It is in A Thousand Sons, period.  And as I have shown from the codex, as well as examples what has been shown of not only the shamans of Fenris but also the rune priests have done, the practices and rites of them both are founded in their culture and carried forward into their induction into the Wolves.

 

So instead of just throwing out your single sentence attacks, how about you actually address the sources I have produced that show exactly what I mentioned?