Back into the Fold

[Xenith]

Hi all,

 

After despairing with the new codex for a while (see what happens when you listen to the internet) I decided to ignore everyone and try and make a tough Thousand Sons army, and I have to say, with this mindset, I've actually been enjoying the codex!

 

I put together a list last night, and this is me remembering it, points will be a little off.

 

Thousand Sons 2000pts

 

170 Sorceror, MoT, lvl3, TDA, familiar

160 Huron

 

500 20 Thousand Sons inc sorceror, melta bomb

242 9 Thousand Sons, sorceror

59 10 cultists, 9 autoguns

59 10 cultists 9 autoguns

234 3 obliterators, MoT

130 5 Hacocs (allied IW) 3ML, 1AC

115 5 Havocs, 4 heavy bolters

 

Putting me on 1669pts.

 

The rest is either

331 9 termies, MoT, 9 power axes, 1 combi melta

OR

327 8 Termies, MoT, 7 axes, chaifist powerfist, 4 combis 

OR

4 termies, 2 combi plasma, 1 combi melta, chainfist, MoT

Plus

120 Hellbrute, plasma cannon, scourge

Plus

35 Rhino for the thousand Sons

 

If I get two infiltrating units, the 20man TS and the termies.

If I get one, and go first: the Sorc lord/Huron and 20TS

1 and go second, Huron and termies.

 

Not optimised, that's not what I'm looking for.

 

I'd considered giving the sorc lord the brand also, and having him infiltrate, at the expense of a termie.

[Narse]

 

 

If I get two infiltrating units, the 20man TS and the termies.

If I get one, and go first: the Sorc lord/Huron and 20TS

1 and go second, Huron and termies.

 

This has been discussed at great length in my area, but the rule lords have deemed that since the independent character rule states the character is placed in squad coherency you can not be placed in an infiltrating squad's coherency without having infiltrate yourself.

[EricBasser]

I thought the rule transfer to the squad from the IC. I've only played Ahriman once.

[Xenith]

This has been discussed at great length in my area, but the rule lords have deemed that since the independent character rule states the character is placed in squad coherency you can not be placed in an infiltrating squad's coherency without having infiltrate yourself.

 

That's very anal, and I doubt my local meta would really go for that.

 

Eric - the idea is that you deploy characters and units together. You deploy infiltrators after you deploy all other units.

 

If a character has infiltrate, yes it goes to the squad also, but since the character is infiltrating, he deploys after the squad (which doesnt have infiltrate) has already been deployed.

 

The work around is that you have to give both character and squad infiltrate. I don't believe this is RAI, and the current SM codex FAQ allowed the deployment of infiltrating Shrike with a unit that did not possess infiltrate.

 

If anyone gets pissy, I will just demean them, point out the FAQ precedent, then go along with them for the sake of having a game, but then hammer them for every tiny rule mistake they make. Live by RAW, die by RAW. So quoth the Raven-God: Never-RAW, Never-RAW.

 

I wont get to play this week, but next week, I'll give it a go. I am unsure about swapping both HQ choices for Ahriman, but I actually prefer the own build Sorceror. Ahriman's staff should have also counted as a familiar :S

[Excessus]

Xenith, anal or not, it's written very clearly in the rules. Check the part where it describes independent characters section.

 

 

An Independent character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it, or if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.

 

Those are the two options. If your character has infiltrate but the unit does not, the character cannot join the unit until you deploy him, which is after the unit already has deployed as it is required to do in the regular deployment. Of course, you can put them together in reserves, meaning you can use the outflank portion of infiltrate perfectly fine...

[Xenith]

Meh, I guess the unit goes up front then, and the characters can play catch up.

[Ethrion]

I run a similar tactic with Ahriman, a full block of rubrics, cultists, obliterators and raptor or warp talons. Depending on the mission, the opponent and deployment factors any of the units (except the cultists) end up being infiltrated or outflanked. It's actually ridiculously successful and dangerous.

IG gunlines fear outflanking obliterators, big units of infantry hate infiltrated raptors/talons being insta-in range and try having 20 rubric marines march on in the back field from a flank...ouch.

[*Furyou Miko]

Remember you can't charge first turn even if you're in range.

[Xenith]

Don't worry, my Thousand Son's wont be charging, the termies are a different matter, but I figure they can hold their own :)

[*Furyou Miko]

Mine charge fairly often, but I was more referring to the tactic of infiltrating or outflanking raptors.

[Xenith]

Ah, I guess.

 

Unfortunately, looking back in my box, a few of the TS are 'disassembled', so I can only scrape together around 23 of them, not including sorcerors. I'll probably drop the big unit down tot 15, then add something in for 115pts. I guess that lets me take both termies and the hellbrute!

[Xenith]

Ok, the list I ended up playing:

 

2000pts

Ahriman - Doombolt, psychic shriek, enfeeble, life leach

Sorcerer, ML3, TDA, Familiar, combi bolter, force axe, enfeeble, warp speed, erm...life leach again, I think,. Possibly shriek.

 

10 terminators, Mark of Tzeentch, heavy flamer, 2 combi plasma, champion has lightening claw, 7 axes, chainfist

 

14 Thousand Sons, Sorcerer, force sword, Doombolt

9 thousand Sons, Sorcerer, Firestorm

10 cultists, autoguns

10 cultists, autoguns

 

2 obliterators - MoT

3 Obliterators - MoT

5 havocs, 4 heavy bolters

 

In the store pick up games I was up against a younger BA player, enthusiastic, but not the most tactically minded. The list was

BA

Captain, power sword

7-10 terminators, flamer

10 death company, jump packs, lemartes, 2 fists, hammer, 2 power swords (!)

DC dreadnought

 

Allied SM

Captain, power sword

7-10 terminators

5 Tactical marines.

 

The game was crusade, 5 objectives with the short edge deployment, which gave the advantage to me immediately. I allowed the BA to deploy first, and rolled a 1 for my infiltrating units. Most of the objectives were in my table half.

 

The Psychic powers were underwhelming. Enfeeble was useful, and had I positioned Ahriman and the other sorceror better, they may have managed to overlap the enfeebling to drop the marines to S2 T2.

 

The Big TS unit infiltrated just over 24" from the DC with the aim of shooting them down as they approach, all while I move backwards.

 

A forest in the middle turned out to be an ironbark forest, giving the approaching DC  a 3+ cover save, which was...fun. So they managed to get to my lines, and whittle the big TS unit down to only the sorcerer after 2 rounds of combat. In the second round, the terminators charged in and wiped out the DC for no return losses.

 

Obliterators immobilised the dreadnought, then ignored it, and dropped plasma onto the terminator units.

 

The cultists took 2 objectives in my backfield, and by the end of T5, my opponent had nothing left bar 4 termies, the combat squad and 2 captains.

 

I had lost 15 rubricae, who could be summoned back by Ahriman later.

 

Ahriman did diddley squat in the game. Maybe I should have been more aggressive, but with all the powerfists around, I didnt want to take a chance. The ML3 sorcerer in TDA was very good with warp speed, and the familiar saved him from a perils first cast of the game.

 

The obliterators saved my bacon as usual by being a reliable source of plasma cannons. 

 

The terminators did very well. Id keep this unit, and maybe go for a 50/50 mix of swords and axes, keeping the claw on the champion. The TL bolters did really well for me, so I'd only take maybe 2 combiplasmas. The chainfist stays for utility. I'd generally hope to have a sorcerer with enfeeble or endurance with this unit. Having your axes wound marines on a 2+ is nice.

 

Next game, 2x10-12 thousand sons (I don't think 9 is durable enough), terminators, maybe a dreadnought?

 

The obliterators really feel like a crutch, but they're so neccessary.

[*Furyou Miko]

You can stop your Oblits feeling like a crutch by building your own counts-as Terminator Sorcerer models.

Once you've put that much effort into something, you start to feel bad for not using it rather than feeling bad for putting it out on the field.

[Excessus]

Don't feel like the Oblits are a crutch Xenith. A Thousand Sons warband would most likely be a very motley crew, with cultists worshipping the Sorcerers as gods, Dark Mechanicus on the hunt for technological marvels and artifacts, renegade marines forcefully conscripted or assimilated into the warband (better they die than more valuable resources)...and so on.

 

In fact, I think the DM would love to join forces with TS, since instead of raiding backwater worlds and outposts, the TS target Libraries, Museums, and other treasure troves that could possibly have STC or other technological data. The TS takes the arcane artifacts, the DM takes the technological artifacts...

 

[Edit]: Oh, and try not to take a single Dread, as the only vehicle it would be shot out quickly. Have you thought about allying with Tzeentch Daemons? A Lord of Change, Pink Horrors and Screamers are all quite nice (and a Herald if you are short on points) in themselves, and they would give you access to divination powers.

[Xenith]

Tzeentch Daemons would be a good ally, but I can't bring myself to spend another £30 on the book, especially with marines coming out...

 

I've thought about the Obliterator/sorcerer thing before, and it works. I just need the models for it, really. That would take me into the double figures with obliterator models...Most of them sculpted from Terminator models.

 

I've found dreads compliment a TS army nicely, as they provide a hard CC counter, although with death by glancing this edition, I'm not so sure. I'll have to try them out: The DV hellbrute I've had sat in a box for a while I flip-flopped over what to do with it will be getting a new lease of life. While it doesn't fit with the dust theme, I think it would look great in Space Wolf colours....and more chains, of course.

 

I get the feeling My Thousand Sons have been manipulating my Iron Warriors from behind the scenes for a long time, getting them to crack open ancient, well defended repositories of knowledge so that the secrets of old may be known once again.

 

I need a new model (and name) for my TDA sorcerer. My previous sorcerer, Ahrabeth, Ascended during the 13th Black crusade. Although I guess that hasnt happened yet?

 

The next quest is to locate 4 more of the DV chosen with bolters to act as Rubricae, with the mace Chosen acting as sorceror. The monopose fist with Rubrics, I think.

[Xenith]

Played another game tonight with the following list:

 

Ahriman

Lord - MoT, Twin LC, TDA, Sigil, Scrolls of magnus, Spell familiar,

 

8 terminators - MoT, reaper, 2 combi plasma, 1 combi melta, 1 powerfist, 1 chainfist, champion with combi bolter and lightening claw, 2 maces, 2 axes, 1 sword

Hellbrute Plasma Cannon

 

9 Thousand Sons, Sorcerer, power sword

9 Thousand Sons, Sorcerer, power sword

10 cultists, 9 autoguns

10 cultists, 9 autoguns

 

3 obliterators - MoT

2 obliterators - MoT

Vindicator

 

Against a good Salamanders player:

 

Captain, Thunder Hammer, Arty Armour

 

5 sternguard, razorback, TL asscans

5 sternguard, razorback, TL asscans

 

10 tactical marines, flamer, missile launcher, rhino, serge with power sword

10 tactical marines, flamer, missile launcher, rhino, serge with power sword

 

Storm Talon - Cyclone

Storm Talon - Cyclone

 

Predator - Auto/HVB

Predator - Tri Las

 

The mission was The Emperor's Will with Dawn of War deployment.

 

The Thousand Sons did sterlingly, and I have regained my ability to consistently make power armour saves, much to my opponents frustration.

 

A full report will follow tomorrow, after I make some maps.

[SRSFACE]

 

This has been discussed at great length in my area, but the rule lords have deemed that since the independent character rule states the character is placed in squad coherency you can not be placed in an infiltrating squad's coherency without having infiltrate yourself.

 

That's very anal, and I doubt my local meta would really go for that.

 

Eric - the idea is that you deploy characters and units together. You deploy infiltrators after you deploy all other units.

 

If a character has infiltrate, yes it goes to the squad also, but since the character is infiltrating, he deploys after the squad (which doesnt have infiltrate) has already been deployed.

 

The work around is that you have to give both character and squad infiltrate. I don't believe this is RAI, and the current SM codex FAQ allowed the deployment of infiltrating Shrike with a unit that did not possess infiltrate.

 

If anyone gets pissy, I will just demean them, point out the FAQ precedent, then go along with them for the sake of having a game, but then hammer them for every tiny rule mistake they make. Live by RAW, die by RAW. So quoth the Raven-God: Never-RAW, Never-RAW.

 

I wont get to play this week, but next week, I'll give it a go. I am unsure about swapping both HQ choices for Ahriman, but I actually prefer the own build Sorceror. Ahriman's staff should have also counted as a familiar :S

Can I just nominate this for post of the year?

 

I think we'd have fun playing. All the guys around my area are rules nazis, and it gets in the way of having fun. Like, one guy wanted to run a Tzeentch terminator sorcerer with dual power claws, but because it specifically says "Any terminator may replace his power weapon with..." in the wargear loadout section, people were throwing a hissy fit and wouldn't let him do it.

 

Why he'd want to give up having a force weapon so he can reroll wounds, I don't know. Don't really care. I told him if he wanted to run his guy that way and was willing to spend the points on it, to go right ahead.

 

I do agree with you on Ahriman, though. Scratchbuild sorcerers just tend to work better for their cost. If I went on a total spending spree, I'm sure I could make a sorc that was more powerful than Ahriman for cheaper, and all I'd be losing is his guaranteed warlord trait. Disc of Tzeentch + Sigil makes a much harder unit to kill even with less wounds.

[Excessus]

I don't know about a single person that doesn't play because he thinks it's fun, but it needs to be an even playing field to let both players have as much fun as they can. (and something must set the deciding factors, like the BRB)

 

The infiltrate rules are pretty clearly written, if you don't like them you can house-rule them differently. Unless that happens in my area and in the shop where I usually play, I'm going with what's written in the rulebook...