Another Look at the Dreadclaw?

[Sception]

I need to admit a mistake and make a correction. I've complained in a few threads that the FW dreadclaw rules are basically unusable due to referencing old rules. That is incorrect, the IA: Aeronautca did update the dreadclaw rules such that they work. They still suffer from being a fast attack choice rather than a dedicated transport, and from costing rather a lot, and most especially from FW no longer selling the model at all.  However, they aren't literally unusable.

 

With the BL book allowing chaos marine players to ally with themselves, essentially granting a fourth FA slot per force org, might the dreadclaw merit another look, since you can now run two claws and still have a couple slots left open for drakes, spawn, or bikes?  Or give up fast attack entirely to dreadclaws to deliver a reasonable chunk of your force?

 

I mean, they're still kinda hella expensive.  And they still don't have the drop pods guaranteed safe deep strike, so they have to worry about landing on other models (which would destroy them), or impassible terrain (which would prevent you from deploying your contents, if you deep strike in hover mode).  Which means generally I guess you'd deep strike zooming, hope your AV12, 3 hull points, flier type, and jink kept you alive for a turn, then on the next turn hover 6", & deploy the unit, which would then be free to move, shoot, and assault?  But then at best the unit you're transporting wouldn't get into position to do anything until turn 3?  So I guess you might want to consider a comms relay?

 

 

I don't know, it's a lot of iffs, and probably won't work out.  But between the rules actually being updated to function at all and four HS slots making me feel like I actually have a couple slots to play with, that I'm still inclined to test it out at least.

[daveNYC]

What are the rules?  Does it actually come in like a drop-pod and everyone gets out right that turn, or does it come in like a flyer or something and it gets to be shot up?

 

And isn't it in the range of 70 points or something?

[Sception]

it is more than 80 but less than 100 points (closer to the former than the latter), AV12, 3 hull points, flier, hover, transport 10 (or one dread), assault vehicle, always starts in reserve with one of your eligible units embarked, and always arrives by deep strike.  like any flying transport, must be in hover mode to drop off or pick up units, like any transport cannot do so if it moved more than six inches that turn.  Whether in hover or zoom mode, it can safely land above impassible terrain.  In zoom mode it can land above your own unit if they fit under it, but in both modes if you scatter onto an enemy unit the transport suffers a mishap and takes its contents along for the ride.  It comes with frag lauchers, and nothing prevents you from transporting terminators or the like if you want, but it doesn't have access to the chaos armory, so no dirge casters.

 

Best arrival is turn two in hover mode, disgorging a unit which can then fire but not assault, but arriving in hover mode is riskier, as you will mishap if you scatter onto your own models, and if you scatter onto impassible terrain, then you won't be able to deploy the unit, and they'll be stuck inside a fairly vulnerable transport for a round.  Dropping in zoom is somewhat safer from mishap, but it gives your opponent time to shoot the pod down or just get out of the way.  At least as an AV12 flier with no reason not to evade, its fairly durable, and if you're running a pair of drakes and a pair of claws with a comm relay, then you might be able to overwhelm the opponents flying defenses.  If they don't drop it, then the unit has 6 inch hover + 6 inch deploy + 12 inch rapid fire or 2d6 inch charge threat range, but that is then turn 3 at the earlierst, so....  I don't know.

 

I'm pretty skeptical overall.  If it had the drop pod's automatic reduction of scatter range to avoid mishaps I'd be much more excited about it.  But even so, after insisting so many times that the claws were literally unusable due to outdated rules, now that I realize I had been spouting bologna, I feel I owe it to them to at least proxy them out a time or two.

[minionboy]

I am liking the idea of 2 pods and 2 drakes with some comms... it's just too bad Chaos doesn't get any flying heavy support to go along with it!  You could however match that up with some Maulerfiends and really scare the bejesus out of the opponent on turn 2.  Generally I love the idea of threat overload, so I might have to give this a try myself.

[Sception]

Problem with mauler support is that there's nothing else rushing with them on turn one with which to overwhelm the enemy, so those maulers will look pretty darned vulnerable.  The other problem is that, between the two heldrakes, the two claws (which together cost as much as another heldrake), the two units in the claws, and then the maulers, that does not leave much room for anything else on the table turn one, and you risk getting tabled before your reserves arrive if you don't get that first turn night fight.  Even with enough terrain, you still risk getting wiped out by assorted turn one drop pods and terminator assaults or assorted indirect fire weapons.

 

I'd figure with that much in reserve, you'd want to go for some more conservative stuff to bunker down with until they arrive?  Maybe some auto or las havocs to man that aegis line?  Maybe some cultists to go to ground in terrain?  I don't know.

 

What would you put in the two claws?   CSMs?  BL scoring chosen?  Dreads?  With two claws, I'm inclined to say two squads of 8 to 10 chosen, each with maybe 3 meltas, 2 flamers, and a champion with lightning claw and melta bombs?  Theoretically arriving in zoom mode, and moving, shooting, & assaulting in the next turn?

 

I've actually been thinking about the four claw version, bringing in two squads of CSMs (2x melta plus combi flamer?), a squad of chosen as above plus lord, and one dreadnought with multimelta?

[Warsmith Aznable]

It's an assault boat that is no good at delivering assault troops (that are also not very good.) I don't see how the BL supplement changes that. To get the best use out of it I think you probably need to put a scoring unit in it and use it as kind of Outflanking alternative for the kind of lists that normally take Huron to do that.

[Chaeron]

I think it's more the model's availability at this current point that's the issue!

[the jeske]

It is not that hard to add spikes to a plastic drop pods . I just added rotors from PC coolers on the under side and claws from tyranofex and plastic crab toys .

 

Have 4 would never use them for non counts as SW army.

[Sception]

http://zweischneid.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/legion-claw.jpg

 

That's the new Kharybdis Assault Claw, coming with future Heresy stuff.  It's much larger than a dread claw, but it should give an idea on how to convert them from drop pods, since this new design for pods is much closer to drop pods than the old dreadclaw design was.  Note same number of sides, similar fins on top.  Just glue the pod shut, add iris door to bottom, big, forward facing claws on each of the flat door sides, and add spikey bits, chaos vehicle icons, chains, and greenstfuff daemonic flesh & mutations to taste.

[the jeske]

yep I have a rhino top hatch glued in the middle of a rotor .

[AekoldHelbrass]

Guys, I don't want to be the one to spoil all the fun, but I've asked FW about Dreadclaw being Flyer and Deep Strike:

 

Q: Dreadclaw is a Flyer and must enter from Deep Strike. Does it mean that Dreadclaw must always land as deep striking transport to allow models to disembark, and then acts as Flyer, or it can enter the game in Zooming mode?

A: The Dreadclaw enters via deepstrike on the turn it arrives. From the turn after this it then becomes a Flyer. As such the reserve rules take precedent on the turn it arrives in regards to any models that are transported.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Well, thats not the answer i got a few weeks, when i asked about the Dreadclaw and the eventual update of their rules( saying that they would get an update soon...)

[Sception]

AekoldHelbrass, on 25 Aug 2013 - 09:46, said:

Guys, I don't want to be the one to spoil all the fun, but I've asked FW about Dreadclaw being Flyer and Deep Strike:

 

Q: Dreadclaw is a Flyer and must enter from Deep Strike. Does it mean that Dreadclaw must always land as deep striking transport to allow models to disembark, and then acts as Flyer, or it can enter the game in Zooming mode?

A: The Dreadclaw enters via deepstrike on the turn it arrives. From the turn after this it then becomes a Flyer. As such the reserve rules take precedent on the turn it arrives in regards to any models that are transported.

Neither the question, nor the answer make any sense. flying transports don't ever 'land', they're either in zooming or hover mode, and they choose which they enter play from reserves as. If they want to disembark passengers, then they must be in hover mode, but nothing requires them to do so. Deep striking transports, likewise, are not required to disembark units the turn they arrive, either. There are special rules to that effect specific to the drop pod, but the dread claw is not a drop pod nor does it use nor reference the rules for drop pods. It is simply a flyer with hover, assault vehicle, and transport capacity 10, which must enter play by deep strike. Nothing stops a flier from entering via deep strike, a deep striking flier doesn't deep strike as some other type of vehicle and then become a flier. It's just a flier, and it just deep strikes.

 

There is absolutely nothing preventing a deep striking flier from arriving in zooming mode. A flier with hover chooses what mode it arrives from reserve in. Nothing in the flier rules, deep strike rules, or rulebook faq contradict this. A zooming flier may not voluntarily move less than 18", but the key word there is 'voluntarily', a deep striking vehicle has no option to move further in the movement phase that turn, so it involuntarily stays put, while still being a flier in zooming mode that counts as moving at cruising speed.

 

If you want to disembark passengers, then you have to arrive in hover mode. They can't assault that turn, but nobody was suggesting they could. If you want to keep them on board and disembark next turn, then you can arrive in zooming mode.

 

 

Since neither the question nor the answer seems to know what they're talking about, and the result is a ruling that neither follows the rules nor even makes sense, I think this one can be disregarded.

[AekoldHelbrass]

There is absolutely nothing preventing a deep striking flier from arriving in zooming mode. A flier with hover chooses what mode it arrives from reserve in. Nothing in the flier rules, deep strike rules, or rulebook faq contradict this.

Check Deep Strike rules again, model that Deep Strikes cannot move following movement phase. That's why GW removed Deep Strike from all their flyers recently.

[Slayer le Boucher]

 

There is absolutely nothing preventing a deep striking flier from arriving in zooming mode. A flier with hover chooses what mode it arrives from reserve in. Nothing in the flier rules, deep strike rules, or rulebook faq contradict this.

Check Deep Strike rules again, model that Deep Strikes cannot move following movement phase. That's why GW removed Deep Strike from all their flyers recently.

 

 

Its a Flyer, so while it doesn't move in the movement phase it still can zoom out in the shooting phase for 24".

 

And DS count the model has having moved in battle (or dunno whats the name again) speed, wich for a vehicle is 12 and a flyer 18.

 

GW removed DS from flyers simply because no one was DS their flyers, seeing that you can move 36" without the danger of mishap, it was a useless rule.

 

NOw dreadclaws are different, and has you can see FW has also given the Stormeagle DS, but i suspect its for fluff reasons and also for if you play one huge Apoc tables, you arn't limited to a measly 36" move.

[Sception]

Being unable to move after deep striking doesn't matter.  If you arrive in hover mode it makes no difference whatsoever, since hovering fliers have no minimum movement.  If you arrive zooming, you are only prevented from voluntarily moving less than 18, which you don't do, since you're not allowed to move at all, so your speed is involuntary.  And, as a deep striking vehicle, you count as moving cruising speed regardless.  There is no rules conflict anywhere.

[AekoldHelbrass]

malisteen, on 25 Aug 2013 - 20:35, said:

If you arrive zooming, you are only prevented from voluntarily moving less than 18, which you don't do, since you're not allowed to move at all, so your speed is involuntary.

Wait... I kind of cannot believe I'm reading it... So:

1. After Deep Strike, you may not move any farther.

2. Zooming flyer counts as wrecked if moved less than 18".

3. You're reading it as if you may not move any farther but must move at least 18" not to become wrecked - you're automatically moved 18"?

 

I'm kind of starting to suspect you're trolling me.

[Sception]

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

 

1: you don't move 18 inches because you can't.

 

2: a zooming flier forced to move less than 18 inches is wrecked, except...

 

3: a vehicle that comes in from reserve counts as moving combat speed

 

4: combat speed for a flier is 18"

 

5: you count as having moved 18", so you aren't wrecked

[daboarder]

 

malisteen, on 25 Aug 2013 - 20:35, said:

If you arrive zooming, you are only prevented from voluntarily moving less than 18, which you don't do, since you're not allowed to move at all, so your speed is involuntary.

Wait... I kind of cannot believe I'm reading it... So:

1. After Deep Strike, you may not move any farther.

2. Zooming flyer counts as wrecked if moved less than 18".

3. You're reading it as if you may not move any farther but must move at least 18" not to become wrecked - you're automatically moved 18"?

 

I'm kind of starting to suspect you're trolling me.

.........it is a HOVER type flyer.

 

 

though to be fair, the 18 move restriction on fliers has nothing to do with it being voluntary, if you can't make that move malisteen, for whatever reason, your flier is dead.

[Sception]

You count as having made that move, because all deep striking vehicles come in at cruising speed.  The voluntary thing is that you're allowed to do it at all, the reason you don't crash after doing it is the way vehicles come in from deep strike.

[AekoldHelbrass]

Well, thats not the answer i got a few weeks, when i asked about the Dreadclaw and the eventual update of their rules( saying that they would get an update soon...)

Could you tell us in more details about it?

 

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

 

1: you don't move 18 inches because you can't.

 

2: a zooming flier forced to move less than 18 inches is wrecked, except...

 

3: a vehicle that comes in from reserve counts as moving combat speed

 

4: combat speed for a flier is 18"

 

5: you count as having moved 18", so you aren't wrecked

Oh, now I see what you mean. Yes, that makes sense. With one problem though, you count as moved for the purpose of shooting, not sure if it spreads to movement too. But if it does - then either Forge World didn't thought it through, or answering person from support just gave his own interpretation, which was pretty close to mine.

[daboarder]

You count as having made that move, because all deep striking vehicles come in at cruising speed.  The voluntary thing is that you're allowed to do it at all, the reason you don't crash after doing it is the way vehicles come in from deep strike.

Yeah I'll pay that, maybe be splitting hairs but that is slightly different to what you said before.

[Sception]

It is. I wrote things poorly. I thought the question was whether you were allowed to do it at all, not whether you crashed afterwords, and was trying to say that the movement restriction hadn't yet come into play when choosing which mode you enter with. But I wrote poorly for that point, too? I don't know, I'm sorry, it's been a rough week, work wise.

 

Anyway, it never occurred to me to read the sentence about cruising speed as applying exclusively to the shooting phase, but in the context of the paragraph I could certainly see that interpretation, and now I'm actually bothered by it. If I send a question though, it would be to GW, not to FW, since it seems to me this is a question about core rules interactions. Sure, it's a FW model, but it's not FW rules that are in question.

 

Alright, sure, I'll shoot them an email, asking such: "When a vehicle arrives from deep strike, does the rule that it counts as moving at cruising speed apply in general for that turn, or does it apply exclusively to the shooting phase? How does this interact with a zooming flier's requirement to move at least 18" in a turn or be wrecked? If a zooming flier deploys via deep strike, is it automatically wrecked because it cannot move 18" or more, or does it count as moving cruising speed in the movement phase as well (18" for a flier), satisfying the minimum movement requirement to remain airborne?"

 

 

 

Honestly, even if the dread claw can choose to arrive in zooming mode to try and deliver an assault unit in the following turn, it's still probably better off taking shooty units and deploying them in hover mode to try and get off an immediate strike, rather than waiting around and giving your opponents time to respond. And in either case, it's probably not worth the half-a-drake points cost and fast attack slot, on top of the points and slots of the transported unit, even if you can take four CSM fast slots via self-allying Black Legion.

 

But I'm determined to test them out a few times via proxy - at least, once I have enough of an army painted to do so - to try to get some use out of them, if only because I had insisted in so many places that they were literally unusable due to outdated rules, only to find out I was wrong the whole time and their rules had been updated to 6e. I feel I owe at least that much to whatever unnamed rules writer it was whose work I was slandering.

[AekoldHelbrass]

If I send a question though, it would be to GW, not to FW, since it seems to me this is a question about core rules interactions. Sure, it's a FW model, but it's not FW rules that are in question.

That would be great! I tried but got nothing from them for the last half a year, so I'm not asking them again. Share the answers afterwards. But there can be one slight problem: if I remember correctly, there are no GW Flyer+Deep Strike left in the game, they all were "fixed" by Death from the Skies. Only FW does it.

Honestly, even if the dread claw can choose to arrive in zooming mode to try and deliver an assault unit in the following turn, it's still probably better off taking shooty units and deploying them in hover mode to try and get off an immediate strike, rather than waiting around and giving your opponents time to respond. And in either case, it's probably not worth the half-a-drake points cost and fast attack slot, on top of the points and slots of the transported unit, even if you can take four CSM fast slots via self-allying Black Legion.

We have only 4 assault vehicles in the game: Land Raider, Storm Eagle, Spartan and Dreadclaw. And Dreadclaw is the cheapest one. So think about it this way: you're paying 25 points for AV12, another 10 points for Deep Strike, and then about half a hander points for Assault Vehicle. That's why I actually thought that option with landing is effective. When you're on the ground - you can hide behind obstacles, wait 1 round, you're protected by AV12, even if you're destroyed - it's only S3 AP- hit, and next turn you can move and assault from it.

[Sception]

Except that deep strike is a downgrade, and a painful one, and being an assault vehicle is much less useful for any transport forced to arrive from reserve, since the reserve rules mean you still can't assault the turn you arrive, meaning a turn three assault at best.  So you're not assaulting any sooner than a rhino squad, or even an infantry squad with good run rolls on the first and second turn.  Sure, you might take less fire that way, but that only means the enemy is further concentrating fire on the units you do deploy, and you also run the risk of losing the whole transported squad to mishap or getting shot down before they deploy.

 

What you describe doesn't even use the dreadclaw as an assault transport, you're dropping to the ground & getting out, but then not charging until the following turn anyway.  You're basically treating it as a drop pod that costs 50 more points, takes up a fast attack slot, doesn't arrive on the first turn, has no protection from mishaps, and doesn't even shoot a storm bolter.  That's...  kind of terrible.  The ability to take off again and redeploy other units doesn't count for much when you aren't showing up until turn 2 or 3 to begin with.  Best case, you drop of a unit turn 2, fly to another turn three, pick it up turn four, fly turn five, and drop it off on an objective or assault an enemy unit 6?  Otherwise you're not moving anybody faster than they could have moved themselves.

 

 

All in all, I'm still sure this thing is pretty terrible either way, but I'm determined to at least try it for reasons mentioned above.