Death Company with Bolters

[dragonknight4275]

I'm sure I'm not the first person to think of this (or even the first to think about it), but it's occurred to me that Death Company with bolters are harshly underestimated, at least in my local area anyway. I guess people would rather have the extra attack than the extra shot, but I don't think that applies as bluntly to the Death Company. Let's think up the extreme deathstar DC unit. Say, 10 marines, 9 with power weapons and bolt pistols, one with a thunder hammer bolt pistol. Each power weapon dude (sword, we'll assume) will unleash 5 attacks on the charge with rage, totaling to 45 S5 AP3 attacks on the charge, rerolling everything with a Chaplain or Reclusiarch. That would be followed up by 4 thunder hammer hits. I think we can easily call that enough to wipe any opposing dedicated assault unit, or almost any unit in the game. Expensive as hell, but it'll 99% of the time get the job done with murderous amounts of overkill.

Now let's switch it up to bolters instead of bolt pistols. While we would only get 36 power sword attacks on the charge as opposed to 45, we now have 20 bolter shots as a nice little prelude, rather than 10 bolt pistol shots. We would be sacrificing a fifth of our CC attacks to double our shooting attacks. Pretty fair trade off, I would say, especially because 36 power sword hits + 4 thunder hammer hits would still pretty much annihilate anything on the board.

Of course, the argument will remain that the 9 power sword attacks we are trading out are AP3, but let's keep in mind that those attacks are limited to the assault. Which means we have to survive overwatch and make our charge. Now I'm not saying overwatch will cripple the Death Company before they get to assault, because it probably won't chew through 3+/5+, but isn't twice the amount of firepower (or twice the range with single shots) worth sacrificing 9 extra attacks that would probably only be extreme overkill? Now that Rage has changed and we can control our DC better now, I think bolters on them can go very far, especially if you're like me and you focus more on slaying the enemy with extreme prejudice rather than going for objectives

If anyone's still with me after that short essay, please tell me what you think below. And I apologize in advance if this has been brought up here on the B&C already.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

What I'd worry about is that the Bolters might be too effective! The closest models to the DC will be the first removed, making it less and less likely the charge will be successful.

 

Still, I'd agree that Bolters could be a very good choice in some situations - say, if they're Drop-podding/Stormravening in, so they're riiiiight in the enemy's face.

[Pyro X]

Its always a good item to give a bolter to a guy with a fist or hammer IMO. It doesn't cost any more and the rapid fire is always good.

[Disruptor_fe404]

To me, Furious Charge + WS 5 means that I would much rather get more melee attacks.

 

Worth noting that your Thunder Hammer guy should always have a bolter though, specialist weapon and all.

 

But! In Kill Team, I'd put bolters on all Death Company models.

[Demoulius]

Question: can you mix bolt pistols and bolters? The wording is never clear to me

Regardless of that though, you cant disembark and charge in the same turn (assault ramp not withstanding) anyway, and considering they have relentless the boltguns might offer more milage depending on your target :)

Vs alot of squishy assault specialists that outfight DC in certain situations (take stealers and banshees for example) I think the bolters would be better!

[Red Fury]

Question: can you mix bolt pistols and bolters? The wording is never clear to me

Not on the same model, as in bolt gun and bolt pistol. But yes from model to model within the squad.

Here's the thing, if you are going to pay an extra 15 points for a power weapon...then I want the extra melee attack too. But for chainswords or specialist weapons that don't benefit from the extra ccw, then definitely go with the bolter.

Also, like Jack said, if they are podding or marching in then they can't charge right away, so take bolters. If you spring even more points for an assault vehicle then all ccw's could be better.

[Taranis]

To me bolters are a must. You can damage any infantry unit at 24". With 6ed changes to the assault phase that in my eyes are important.

I'd rather have the option of 6 rounds of shooting.

In a good battle, how many assaults can one DC squad initiate? I'd say two, with an average opponent.

On a bad day, none.

I wait for the age of assaulting, patiently. Now it's the age if the gun.

 

In my humble opinion. :)

[The Acid Dog]

To me, Furious Charge + WS 5 means that I would much rather get more melee attacks.

 

Worth noting that your Thunder Hammer guy should always have a bolter though, specialist weapon and all.

 

But! In Kill Team, I'd put bolters on all Death Company models.

 

I take the Furious Charge and WS 5 as being evidence that less is more with the Death Co CC attacks.  They cause hits more easily, and those hits land harder.

 

They have another rule, though, which is a favorite of mine: Relentless.  Now I can take 10 DC, have them pour 20 shots into their target, and still rip it to pieces with a boatload of nasty close combat attacks if that should fail.  I can't take advantage of that rule with a bolt pistol, and it's just too fun for me to pass up.

[Drunken Angel]

10 DC with Bolters a power fist and an infernus pistol in a pod, drop them anywhere you want.  Even 10 DC in a Rhino with Bolters is not a silly idea.  They will probably be walking after their rhino gets shot to bits but it did not cost much did it?

 

Or just throw 10 of them in a land raider redeemer if assaults your thing and be done, grab a libby for divination/sheild while you trundle across the board.

 

Ravens are too late to the game for assault the best you will get from a DC Raven unit is a 3rd turn assault.

 

I have 2 Land raider redeemers on order now because the idea of 10 DC in a raider is too good not to try with all this S6/S7 shooting around the place.

 

DC out in the open will die quickly.  In a pod definitely bolters, for a raider bolters are still not a bad choice but you are in an assault vehicle you might as well use CC weapons.  Rhino = bolters.

[TheSauce]

I've considered throwing the DC in a rhino to blast up to midfield and deposit the crazy marines. In that case bolters sound great, so they can through down some pain while marching further forward after their transport is destroyed.

 

Sure, they'll take a lot of enemy fire, but if it's not S8/AP3 (albeit there is a lot of that around) then they're getting saves against it, and cover it pretty easy to get anyway, so they're going to be survivable. And they can buy time for your other units to get into position.

 

It seems like a good idea - I might give it a try this weekend to see how it works in practice.

[skawolf]

I magnetized their arms. I run them in a land raider redeemer with 10 marines, 2x powerfist+bolter, 2x powersword+bolt pistol, 6x bolt pistol+chainsword.. add in a chaplin and point towards enemy.

Or...

I run them 10 in a rhino, 2x powerfist+bolter, 2x bolt pistol+powersword, 6x bolter. I run them up the board. In the off chance that they get to the enemy lines I dissembark and try to keep only one enemy unit in line of sight with the rhino blocking enemy line of sight to the DC unit.Fire on the chosen unit in line of sight. Then after hopefully weathering a round of shooting in my favor I will move up and attempt a charge on another enemy unit.

 

I personally like the Land Raider Redeemer version better, but like the cost of the rhino version better.

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

This is my number one cause with Blood Angels.  I love bolter DC.

[p34ce]

This is my number one cause with Blood Angels.  I love bolter DC.

 

They are absolutely beautiful models, to boot.

 

10 DC, 8 bolters, 8 chainswords, 2 power axes, 2 bolt pistols (get the most AP2 you can). No power fists or fancy pistols or anything like that. Handle vehicles with dedicated unit(s) elsewhere.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

I tried bolter DC, but failed around 80% of charges with them while utilising Relentless. BP + CCW all the way for me.

 

PS. Giving every dude a Power Weapon is madness. You need three, tops.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Madness? THIS IS BAAL!

[Zynk Kaladin]

I do 5 with BP and 5 with bolters (1 axe, 1 fist).  Plop down in a drop pod close to thine enemy and shoot 15 shots.  In your opponent's turn I take casualties off the 4 bolter marines(the ones without the PF) so when the unit charges the DC still maximize their assault potential relative to losses.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Close combat weapons all the way for me. It just doesn't make sense to me to let them stand around and fire with bolters. They're lost to the Chapter and long for a honourable death on the battlefield, by the hands of some foul abomination. I'm still trying to play our unique units as they're described in our background.

I've re-discovered the Stormraven as an assault vehicle. What I do normally is zoom around for 2 turns and take out enemy units that might interfere with my battle-plans, and then disembark and assault, in hover mode. By that time, I've tried everything I could to get rid of serious anti-tank threats, and a charge by 7-8 DC with a Chaplain just wrecks face. No Dreadnought in there, though. The Fragioso rides the Pod.

 

 

So yeah, no bolters for me. I just don't want to end up out of charge range after shooting, and for anti-infantry potential I'd rather bring 5 re-rollable attacks in close combat per model.

 

 

 

Snorri

[Taranis]

Close combat weapons all the way for me. It just doesn't make sense to me to let them stand around and fire with bolters. They're lost to the Chapter and long for a honourable death on the battlefield, by the hands of some foul abomination.

Just model some of the Bolter DC as using it as a club. :)

 

Madness, I know. :yes:

[Zynk Kaladin]

Obviously a bolter that shoots chainswords is a more fitting weapon for an angel marked for death.

[Drunken Angel]

Whats our real problem ? Behind this discussion on bolters for DC? DC are assault troops! why are we even talking about bolters on DC?

Because even our standard assault marines or any kind of marine in the open are easily outshot by Xenos or flamed by the traitor legions helldrakes.

Tau ranged shooting, Eldar Ranged shooting. Jump shoot Jump, battle focus. Most of it is strong enough in that S6-S7 band and can easily get side armour shots on our AV 13, 11, 10 tanks and transports.

Marines out in the open are Helldrake bait or just target practise for Eldar and Tau. We cant do jack from inside our transports either not even assault.

Flyers aren't on the board till 2nd turn at the soonest and don't permit assaults till 3rd

I am going to experiment. I have obtained a second Caestus assault ram and will use two of them. Not much of anything else just Dreadpods Assault ram/s Ravens and or Land Raider Redeemers.

Pods are great

I like the idea of dropping a pod/s with beacon first turn then deepstriking the Land raider or RAM on its beacon.

Bolters and flamers by all means but I think the last viable areas left for me to use competively at least in my increasingly Tau/Eldar,Chaos Necron meta RMVATLM (results may vary according to local meta ) are Pods, Land Raiders, and AV 12/13 flyers. And death company. I am off to put up my latest Heavy list in the armies lists.

[knife&fork]

  DC are assault troops! why are we even talking about bolters on DC?

 

Because DC are not Vanguard Veterans. They have no way of getting straight into assault without taking a very expensive transport option. 

 

I currently run BP+Chainsword exclusively, but that's mainly because my local meta is still very 3+ heavy.

The 18-20 bolter shots will only kill 2 MEQ on average, so not very good return on those bolters. Most 3+ armies are also much more inclined to counter assault the DC, making the extra attacks more valuable. 

 

With less MEQ in the meta the bolters suddenly do much more damage, and non MEQ are also less likely to counter assault as they will still get their asses handed to them even without the extra attacks and FC. Plus killing more with shooting on arrival means less enemies to shoot back at you in their shooting phase. 

 

Unless your DC deploys with an assault vehicle taking bolters makes a lot of sense. 

[Father Mapple]

Yeah, 10 bolter DC in a pod, 5 bolter DC in a razorback, or 10 DC walking/riding in a Rhino are tough cookies to shift off of an objective. They're still denial units. They're very effective against any 5+ army, which is Tyranids, Orks, Eldar of most types, IG, Cultists, and any T3 power armor (since the S4 wounds more often against T3 making up more wounds).

In a Rhino or a Pod, you're looking at 250pts, but it needs no priest, can have a special weapon (doesn't need one, but can have one) and will not be running/shot off since they're fearless. Also, because the Rhino is fast and the Pod lands usually within a disembarkation of where you want it to, they get to the other objectives on a board quickly. 24" with a Flat Out Rhino-chassis means it's anywhere on a board you want it to be in most deployments, or with a Pod.

DC with fleet can shoot and make up any charge difference from shooting casualties during the charge which other assault units can't do. Look at this chart on this page! Fleet is awesome. http://purple-40k-reign.blogspot.com/2012/07/charge-distances-revisited.html

Without fleet, you make 6" charges 3/4 of the time. With Fleet you make 8" charges 2/3 of the time. With Fleet, you can make a 12" charge 10% of the time! That's amazing! So if you shoot your enemy away 2-3", Fleet will make up the difference.

And if you get that charge, you can get those +2 attacks still, and versus the kinds of targets described above, 40 attacks from DC hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s/2s versus T4/3 from Furious Charge means the bolter shots are going to make up for the lost 10 CC attacks (assuming no rerolls).

[Zynk Kaladin]

GAH! I wrote a great arguement in favor of mixed bolter and BP/CCW buy accidentaly "backspaced" out of my reply...

In my humble opinion, a mixed squad of 50% bolters and 50% BP/CCW is a more flexible unit than the 10 bolter DC.

Basically, the mixed DC maximizes your combat potential due to losses because you can manipulate casualties in your favor. For example if late game you expect close combat to be more prevalent , you put your bolter DC up front to tank casualties. This allows for your turn2-mid-late CC ability to remain very effective with a deteriorated unit. Keeping your BP/CCW DC alive also accounts for the occasional awkward "being charged by your enemy after they shoot you" situations because you get more counter attacks in CC. If you don't expect to enter CC for Sanguinius knows whatever reason, then you can tank the BP/CCW DC for stronger late game "reach out and touch someone" abilities.

I feel more in control of my army with this composition. YOU are the architect of their effectiveness, not your enemy.

[Jolemai]

 

DC with fleet can shoot and make up any charge difference from shooting casualties during the charge which other assault units can't do.

Sadly the only Death Company that have the Fleet rule are the DC Dreadnought and DC Tycho. Regular DC do not.

[Father Mapple]

D'oh! Thanks, Jolemai. I'll go paint my armor black in shame now.