Walkers, Interceptor, and Pivoting

[Iron Father Ferrum]

So I played my first game in almost two months yesterday, and something came up.  We rolled off on it and it ended up favoring my opponent and cost me a drop pod Ironclad, so I figured I'd come to you guys to clear it up.  So, the official question:

 

Can a Mortis Contemptor Dreadnought pivot before firing when executing an Interceptor shot?

 

 

Interceptor states that "a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from reserve within its range and line of sight".  LOS being the key part.

 

The rules for Walkers state that "When firing a Walker's weapons, pivot the Walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target"[sic].  However, it goes on to specify (the next bolded section of the paragraph, actually) that "This pivoting in the SHOOTING PHASE [emphasis mine] [/b]does not count as moving[/b]"[sic].

 

So what it basically boils down to is this: does the second bolded section that specifies the Shooting Phase mean that Walkers can only pivot in their own Shooting Phase?  Or does the first part (which makes no mention of the Shooting Phase) override it, and allow the Walker to pivot when Intercepting?  It's important because an Interceptor weapon can only fire at what ends up in its LOS, and if it can't pivot, those guns now only have a 45 degree LOS fixed forward.  This creates blind spots in Interceptor coverage for, say, drop pods and their contents.

[Axagoras]

Ive always played it as yes it can, a walker has a 360 degree firing arc thanks to the pivoting ability but must face where it fires. So the enemy unit shows up, and the contemptor pivots to face them then fires.

[dswanick]

My two cents:

Yes, you pivot the Walker towards the target before firing your Interceptor shot ("When firing a Walker's weapons, pivot the Walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target")

However, the Walker's weapons now count as if the vehicle has moved ("This pivoting in the SHOOTING PHASE does not count as moving"), which is irrelevant because Interceptor doesn't care if the weapons have been moved and Walkers can fire all of their weapons when they have moved anyway.
So I don't really see how this is an issue.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The issue comes from the fact that the second part of the pivot rule specifies that pivoting happens in the Shooting Phase, and Interceptor shots are resolved in the Movement Phase.  I thought I'd made that clear.

[wheelballer]

I agree with Axagoras and dswanick. The walker pivots and fires at the target wherever it came in from. The walker, in my opinion, acts like the turret on a tank, with a 360 degree firing arc. I know it's not the proper reference, but in the video games walkers like dreadnoughts can spin a full 360 degrees on their "waist." This might be considered an advantage I suppose, but it has a downside too. If the flyer comes in behind the walker and it turns to shoot it, the rear armor of the walker is now facing the enemy and vulnerable to be shot at.

[Grey Mage]

I can see your point Deus, but baring a FAQ to the contrary, Id say the walker can pivot.

[Raeven]

So I played my first game in almost two months yesterday, and something came up.  We rolled off on it and it ended up favoring my opponent and cost me a drop pod Ironclad, so I figured I'd come to you guys to clear it up.  So, the official question:

 

Can a Mortis Contemptor Dreadnought pivot before firing when executing an Interceptor shot?

 

 

Interceptor states that "a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from reserve within its range and line of sight".  LOS being the key part.

 

You are absolutely right that LOS is the key part that that rule.  What you are forgetting is that LOS is not determined by the facing of the model, but the type of weapon mounting.

 

Pg 72.  See the diagrams.  A tank with a turret has a 360 degree LOS.  A fixed gun emplacement, like the gun array on the side of a ghost arc, only has a 45 degree LOS.

 

pg 84, Shooting with Walkers, basically gives Walkers a 360 degree firing arc, *unless* the walker is immobilized. 

[dswanick]

The issue comes from the fact that the second part of the pivot rule specifies that pivoting happens in the Shooting Phase, and Interceptor shots are resolved in the Movement Phase.  I thought I'd made that clear.

No, you were clear about that.  Perhaps I wasn't clear in my response - 

"This pivoting in the SHOOTING PHASE does not count as moving" does not limit pivoting to the shooting phase only.  It simply says that the pivoting you are allowed to do at any time ("When firing a Walker's weapons, pivot the Walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target") does not count as Movement when performed in the Shooting phase.

[Fibonacci]

 

The issue comes from the fact that the second part of the pivot rule specifies that pivoting happens in the Shooting Phase, and Interceptor shots are resolved in the Movement Phase.  I thought I'd made that clear.

No, you were clear about that.  Perhaps I wasn't clear in my response - 

"This pivoting in the SHOOTING PHASE does not count as moving" does not limit pivoting to the shooting phase only.  It simply says that the pivoting you are allowed to do at any time ("When firing a Walker's weapons, pivot the Walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target") does not count as Movement when performed in the Shooting phase.

This.

The pivoting is done when firing the walker's weapons.  If it fires during the shooting phase the pivoting does not count as moving.  If it pivots and fires during any other phase it MIGHT count as moving. 

[Raeven]

Does turning on the spot count as moving for walkers, or are they like other vehicles and can turn indiscriminately between the start of their move and the finish?

 

Don't have my book with me at the moment.

[dswanick]

Does turning on the spot count as moving for walkers, or are they like other vehicles and can turn indiscriminately between the start of their move and the finish?

 

Don't have my book with me at the moment.

All vehicles can turn indiscriminately during the Movement phase.  Turning alone in the Movement phase does not count as movement, but may not be performed by an Immobilzed vehicle (BRB, pg.71).

Walkers can turn during the Shooting phase, which does not count as movement, but can not be performed by an Immobilized Walker (BRB, pg.84).

Walkers with Interceptor weapons can pivot prior to firing them at the end of the enemies Movement phase (this thread shows this).  Whether or not the Walker counts as having moved is open to debate (I think they do), but is irrelevant because I am unaware of any rule which would adversely affect weapons fired by Walker which have moved.

[DarkGuard]

Weighing up both sides of the argument, I find I agree with dswanick and Axagoras. They've given good RAW arguments which support most people's interpretations of the rules, and it's certainly the way I'd play it.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

All vehicles can turn indiscriminately during the Movement phase.  Turning alone in the Movement phase does not count as movement, but may not be performed by an Immobilzed vehicle (BRB, pg.71).

Does turning on the spot count as moving for walkers, or are they like other vehicles and can turn indiscriminately between the start of their move and the finish?

 

Don't have my book with me at the moment.

Walkers can turn during the Shooting phase, which does not count as movement, but can not be performed by an Immobilized Walker (BRB, pg.84).

Walkers with Interceptor weapons can pivot prior to firing them at the end of the enemies Movement phase (this thread shows this).  Whether or not the Walker counts as having moved is open to debate (I think they do), but is irrelevant because I am unaware of any rule which would adversely affect weapons fired by Walker which have moved.

 

Emphasis mine, because the specific example I gave involved a Contemptor, which only gains Interceptor and Skyfire if it doesn't move that turn.  Obviously, that requires the Contemptor's rules to check its wording (which I don't have), so I don't know if this'll have an effect either.

 

The way I see it, we're applying the "in the Shooting Phase" to two different parts of the sentence, but I see your meaning.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Walkers with Interceptor weapons can pivot prior to firing them at the
end of the enemies Movement phase (this thread shows this).  Whether or
not the Walker counts as having moved is open to debate (I think they
do), but is irrelevant because I am unaware of any rule which would
adversely affect weapons fired by Walker which have moved.

 

As long as the walker isn't already immobilized, right?

[Grey Mage]

 

All vehicles can turn indiscriminately during the Movement phase.  Turning alone in the Movement phase does not count as movement, but may not be performed by an Immobilzed vehicle (BRB, pg.71).

Does turning on the spot count as moving for walkers, or are they like other vehicles and can turn indiscriminately between the start of their move and the finish?

 

Don't have my book with me at the moment.

Walkers can turn during the Shooting phase, which does not count as movement, but can not be performed by an Immobilized Walker (BRB, pg.84).

Walkers with Interceptor weapons can pivot prior to firing them at the end of the enemies Movement phase (this thread shows this).  Whether or not the Walker counts as having moved is open to debate (I think they do), but is irrelevant because I am unaware of any rule which would adversely affect weapons fired by Walker which have moved.

 

Emphasis mine, because the specific example I gave involved a Contemptor, which only gains Interceptor and Skyfire if it doesn't move that turn.  Obviously, that requires the Contemptor's rules to check its wording (which I don't have), so I don't know if this'll have an effect either.

 

The way I see it, we're applying the "in the Shooting Phase" to two different parts of the sentence, but I see your meaning.

It only has to be stationary during the movement phase, so it should be good to go.

[dswanick]

 

 

All vehicles can turn indiscriminately during the Movement phase.  Turning alone in the Movement phase does not count as movement, but may not be performed by an Immobilzed vehicle (BRB, pg.71).

Does turning on the spot count as moving for walkers, or are they like other vehicles and can turn indiscriminately between the start of their move and the finish?

 

Don't have my book with me at the moment.

Walkers can turn during the Shooting phase, which does not count as movement, but can not be performed by an Immobilized Walker (BRB, pg.84).

Walkers with Interceptor weapons can pivot prior to firing them at the end of the enemies Movement phase (this thread shows this).  Whether or not the Walker counts as having moved is open to debate (I think they do), but is irrelevant because I am unaware of any rule which would adversely affect weapons fired by Walker which have moved.

 

Emphasis mine, because the specific example I gave involved a Contemptor, which only gains Interceptor and Skyfire if it doesn't move that turn.  Obviously, that requires the Contemptor's rules to check its wording (which I don't have), so I don't know if this'll have an effect either.

 

The way I see it, we're applying the "in the Shooting Phase" to two different parts of the sentence, but I see your meaning.

It only has to be stationary during the movement phase, so it should be good to go.

Yep, although I'll leave the "turn"/"player turn"/"game turn" to a separate RAW debate and just assume that you play the RAI "game turn" interpretation. ;)

"If the Contemptor Mortis remains stationary in the Movement phase, it gains Skyfire and Interceptor special rules for the turn."

[Raeven]

Also, Pg. 71 Vehicle Movement, "a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as Stationary (however, immobilized vehicles cannot pivot."

 

So the rule stating that Walkers pivoting in the Shooting phase is only important because it an exception to the normal vehicle rules.  Either way, a Walker can spin like a top in the same spot the entire game if it wants and count as Stationary as far as the rules are concerned.

[Grey Mage]

All vehicles can turn indiscriminately during the Movement phase. Turning alone in the Movement phase does not count as movement, but may not be performed by an Immobilzed vehicle (BRB, pg.71).

Does turning on the spot count as moving for walkers, or are they like other vehicles and can turn indiscriminately between the start of their move and the finish?

Don't have my book with me at the moment.

Walkers can turn during the Shooting phase, which does not count as movement, but can not be performed by an Immobilized Walker (BRB, pg.84).

Walkers with Interceptor weapons can pivot prior to firing them at the end of the enemies Movement phase (this thread shows this). Whether or not the Walker counts as having moved is open to debate (I think they do), but is irrelevant because I am unaware of any rule which would adversely affect weapons fired by Walker which have moved.

Emphasis mine, because the specific example I gave involved a Contemptor, which only gains Interceptor and Skyfire if it doesn't move that turn. Obviously, that requires the Contemptor's rules to check its wording (which I don't have), so I don't know if this'll have an effect either.

The way I see it, we're applying the "in the Shooting Phase" to two different parts of the sentence, but I see your meaning.

It only has to be stationary during the movement phase, so it should be good to go.

Yep, although I'll leave the "turn"/"player turn"/"game turn" to a separate RAW debate and just assume that you play the RAI "game turn" interpretation.

"If the Contemptor Mortis remains stationary in the Movement phase, it gains Skyfire and Interceptor special rules for the turn."

Actually, in the 2013 IA:Apocalypse it specifies game turn. Pg. 20, bottom inset box, left hand side last sentence under the heading "Helical Targetting array":

... , it gains the Skyfire and Interceptor special rules for that game turn.