Inquisitorial valkyrie

[henrywalker]

im debating wether or not to buy a valkyrie for my inquisitor to ride around in. i was annoyed to see that my henchmen squad with inquisitor couldnt get into an imperial guard valkyrie until someone pointed out to me that in Imperial Armour 2 there is an inquisitorial valkyrie. 

 

I was wondering what you guys think about how good the valkyrie would be? im sure it will depend upon the henchmen unit itself and what i intend to do with them. has anyone used them to cart around henchmen before? 

[henrywalker]

oh, and how would it compare to just taking a storm raven?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Raven is better in every measurable way. Also, its 100% codex, bring in Valks or Vendettas that aren't Allied might lead to arguments. 

[number6]

Frankly, the vendetta is better than the stormraven in every measurable way. Fact.

Or not? Oh, opinions....

In all seriousness, I do genuinely prefer the vendetta to the stormraven. I think it's worth working out a cheap IG allied contingent to get one. Still have points -- a LOT of them! -- left over? OK, then. Take a stormraven as well.

If you are able to use ForgeWorld rules -- or your opponents are generous souls -- take the Vendetta over the Stormraven every time.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

ohboyherewego.jpeg

Assault Ramp, ceramite shielding, can take primary list models (ie Knight units), don't need to pay an additional HQ+1 Troops to unlock....

 

The Vendetta is a better gunship, and a better Flyer for its price. No question. However, for Knights? Raven does the job we need. I'd certainly advocate taking Vendettas with a Raven or two in larger games, but in smaller lists, a Raven is actually easier to slot in. 

 

Our units need something that does the Land Raiders job, wrecks vehicles reliably and a Flyer so it'll reach enemy lines alive (barring heavy AA lists, like Tau or Serpent Spam Eldar). Even if it dies, the utility of delivering an assault unit into the enemy's face the same turn you arrive in their lines (a feat only open-topped paper mache stuff like Raiders, or of course the slowpoke melta magnet Land Raider we never take) cannot be understated. A dead Riptide, Obliterator unit, Havoks, Devs, Centurions, Lootaz...take your pick of backfield stuff that doesn't want Knights jamming force weapons into their faces/DCA turning them into meat smoothies. 

 

Having said all that, I'm not gonna lie, I think Ravens are overcosted. 200pts is a lot to sink into a single vehicle nowadays. Even so, its still cheaper than a Land Raider, and does 90% of what the slowpoke melta magnet does. AV14 would be OP, even AV13 frontal would be a stretch, so AV12 mediocrity it is. 

[number6]

 

Our units need something that does the Land Raiders job

 

See, I disagree with this. The GK army is not an assault force. It's a shooting army that happens to have decent assault capability virtually everywhere. This was true even all the way back in 4th edition when we were all discussing "Water Warrior" builds that revolved around land raiders.

 

6e itself is a shooting game. Games are won and lost on the strength of your shooting phases. Assaults can, at best, tip the balance in your favor at a critical moment, but they are unreliable. Core 6e rules have made them unreliable, what with random charge distances and the potential power of overwatch, etc.

 

Tyranids are an assault army first, a shooting army second. And look how well they've been faring ever since 5th edition. :down:

 

I think it's fine to want and employ assault ramps and have an assault-focused unit. But by no means are such things required to win games. Helloooo, Tau Empire! :lol:

[boreas]

But if we posit that 40k is a shooting game, wouldn't be a necessity to assault quickly (and thus prevent shooting from) all those armies that outshoot us (Tau, IG and Eldars are obvious to me, but Necrons, venom-spam DE and other come to mind)?

[number6]

But if we posit that 40k is a shooting game, wouldn't be a necessity to assault quickly (and thus prevent shooting from) all those armies that outshoot us (Tau, IG and Eldars are obvious to me, but Necrons, venom-spam DE and other come to mind)?

 

Easier said than done.

 

I point you once again to one of the storied -- if not "elite" -- assault-focused armies in 40K: Tyranids. And they have stunk ever since their MC mono-build that worked well enough in 4th edition became overnight sucktastic with the switch to 5th edition. And the 5e 'nids codex hasn't done much to improve the situation, either. Even with the buffs to flying MCs in 6e, 'nids still struggle mightily, even if you attempt to maximize your shooting and double up on flyrants.

 

The problem you posit -- how to get in the grill of opponents who clearly outshoot us -- is incredibly difficult. Just saying, "Welp, I gotta assault!" is not answer enough. How can/do you accomplish that?

 

If anything, the sheer power of Eldar shooting -- based on mass deployment of Wave Serpents -- really hammers home this point. It's all well and good to know that you can kick their teeth in. Being able to get close enough to do the kicking can be all but impossible.

 

Shooting >> Assault

 

It's just that simple.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

If that's true then we're all better off switching to Tau,IG or Crons. They are currently (along with Eldar, although that is just that stupid Serpent build) the strongest shooting armies in 40k. No Knight list is going to outgun them, we have to leverage our force weapons (which is why we pay so much for our infantry). 

 

It's not just a case of 'we have to get into melee'. Tau and IG aren't necessarily tough enough to withstand our shooting, its just that they field 2x, if not 3 or 4x the number of dudes. Add in tank support (which outside of Allies we simply do not possess), and we're up the proverbial with no real recourse. So, I wouldn't just blindly through a Raven full of Purifiers at enemy lines. I'd target something vital, ie something that has to die now as opposed to mop up later. Normally its their scoring, but it can also be stuff like Riptides or Russes. 

 

The typical foot-list Knight players are used to is not going to work anymore. I've tried it and failed miserably against these new xenos builds. Serpent Spam should be the final nail in the coffin. We have to get mobile and strike at their key units before we are overwhelmed. Ravens offer that, albeit at a high price. Deepstrike is the other main way, Scout is potentially a third way depending on matchup.

 

In tandem with that, Henchmen become very relevant. They're dirt-cheap, which means we have mitigate the model advantage of other armies somewhat, and they bring relevant support (plasma cannon servitors decimate infantry of all stripes, melee warbands are cheap and blenderise even dedicated assault units, storm bolter Acolytes are scoring and can gun down enemy chaff, etc). They are also in-faction, which frees up our Ally options (without Henchmen, you're forced to take IG or Orks to supplement in the same manner). I've had 3-man Acolyte units win me the game before, after all my Knight units got pulverised. 

[number6]

The typical foot-list Knight players are used to is not going to work anymore.

I honestly don't understand how anybody had success with foot GK builds previous to 6e. While 6e has thrown the balance of the game even more strongly in favor of shooting, 40K has been biased in favor of shooting since at least the advent of 4th edition.

 

When you talk about henchman, you're talking about MSU builds.

 

These are the builds that are making the new Xenos armies so strong. MSU.

 

Build your GK army as an MSU army -- and you can do so even without resorting to henchman -- and you'll stand a better chance of being able to compete.

 

My only real nit to pick with you, RD, is your total love of the Stormraven. Against all of Tau, Eldar, and Crons, I don't think it brings you much. Just too expensive. If you aren't willing to ally in cheaper flyers that do more with fewer points, I'd suggest focusing on the ground game these days.

 

Otherwise, GKs are going to be relegated to the allies table.

[boreas]

While I agree with you that the SR is always pushed out of my lists for lack of points (usually, I play 1500-1750 pts), I just can't really see the use of the Valkyrie either. I play with lots of GKSS, usually, often combat-squadding them. They are mainly the small (but surprisingly effective) nuisance that support my real army: codex: Nemesis Dreadknight. A quad-gun manned by Coteaz and plasmacannon henchment is the sum of my AA. But if I went with more henchmen (to give the flavor henrywalker seemed to want), I'd be able to free some points and put a SR to at least try and assault that crucial unit, no?

 

Now, if we're looking only at fluff, get the Aquila Lander :)

[Gentlemanloser]

that support my real army: codex: Nemesis Dreadknight

LoL!

Preach it brother, preach it!

Edit: Do you roll with 2 or 3? Just H Incinerator, or with PT as well?

[boreas]

I only have two, but I might consider a third one... If I play 2 vs 2 and I've got fire support (ie my team mate is IG or tau), I use : NDK, GS, HI. They play goon to block the forward field while my GKSS potshot their psycannons to kill light vehicles or psybolt infantry. My team-mate kills heavy vehicles and infantry. If I'm 1 vs 1 I use: NDK, HI, PT (no GS to save some points) and shove them down my opponent's throat while my GKSS try to get more KP or objectives than my opponent's troops can...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

I honestly don't understand how anybody had success with foot GK builds previous to 6e. While 6e has thrown the balance of the game even more strongly in favor of shooting, 40K has been biased in favor of shooting since at least the advent of 4th edition.

I was doing okay with my lists (not many tanks in it besides Dreads and Rhinos), but now that Riptides, Heldrakes and Missilesides/Serpents exist, its just depressingly bad. You get shot off the table before getting into shooting range, never mind melee. 

 

My only real nit to pick with you, RD, is your total love of the Stormraven. Against all of Tau, Eldar, and Crons, I don't think it brings you much. Just too expensive. If you aren't willing to ally in cheaper flyers that do more with fewer points, I'd suggest focusing on the ground game these days.

It delivers assault units into their face, which they hate. It brings two reliable, mobile anti-tank weapons. It has melta protection. It can transport Terminators, but isn't slow. Mine has done alright, its not in every list but it does what I want. I have Vendettas too, I switch them in when I go IG Allies. (shrug) It's not a bad flier dude, there are so many terribad Flyers in 40k by comparison. I feel you're just being too harsh on it, because its not broken like the Vendetta haha. 

 

 

Otherwise, GKs are going to be relegated to the allies table. 

 

Lol, we already are. New Marines are retardedly powerful. Crons, Tau and Eldar outgun us. IG still stomp us. We basically just beat up on noobs and the worst armies (Daemons, Sisters, DE etc). 

[Valerian]

"Lol, we already are. New Marines are retardedly powerful. Crons, Tau and Eldar outgun us. IG still stomp us. We basically just beat up on noobs and the worst armies (Daemons, Sisters, DE etc)."

 

Remember when the Knights were the OMG, too OP army of two years ago? Funny how the times change so quickly.

[boreas]

I wonder how the upcoming Nids and IG will fare. If they make bad Nids units good again AND keep the Tervigon-guants spam alive, they could be nasty! And if IG get better... Will we be know a the "quickly sinking GKs"!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Nah. The fanbase doesn't have hindsight. I'm sure Warseer and BoLS will descend into the same hysterical screeching about 'WAAC' and 'cheese!1!!' that they did when we came out. 

[IK Viper]

Reclusiarch Darius said:

 

It delivers assault units into their face, which they hate. It brings two reliable, mobile anti-tank weapons. It has melta protection. It can transport Terminators, but isn't slow. Mine has done alright, its not in every list but it does what I want. I have Vendettas too, I switch them in when I go IG Allies. (shrug) It's not a bad flier dude, there are so many terribad Flyers in 40k by comparison. I feel you're just being too harsh on it, because its not broken like the Vendetta haha. 

 

Could not agree more.  The Vendetta is by far the most under costed unit in the game, right there beside the Cron Anni Barge in terms of fire power per point.  Most armies would pay 130 points for an AV 12 tank with 3TLLC at BS 3,  never mind the fact that it is a transport, and flys.  I was very disapointed in GW for not using the FAQ's or the Death From the Skys supplement to balance this unit out honestly. 

 

I play BA, GK, and SoB.  If you want raw AT fire power the GK SR comes in behind the Vendetta and the BA SR. I feel like it is a mistake to take one as an AT answer in a list.  I thing what the GK SR does better then the other 2 flyers as a "Dakka Raven,"  which it is really good at.  I also think that with DCA being as cheap as they are for what they do, it is worth the points to put a few of them in a GK SR to make it a multi-demensional threat.  Also, one of the best first blood tools the GK have besides the Vinidcare are the mindstrike missiles.  I am not saying that you should spam them but they have their place.  The only unit I can think of that will reliabley put wounds on a powered up Seer Council is a GK Stromraven with mindstrikes.  Also, its great for nuking these Mastry Level 3 Deamon Princes we see in the game runnig around at Toughness 7+.  Once they come down from the sky a Mindstrike missile is something they should fear.    

 

I am of the opinions that a Landraider is a better AT platform (Godhammer Pattern) since it can deliver fire turn after turn and is immune to much of the Tau and Eldar fire that is so feared as it tops out at S7 in most cases.  Again, I think that when combined with DCA you have a tough scoring unit that an opponent must respect as a CC threat as well.  I usually run 3-4 Acolytes as bullet soaks and about 4 DCA running P. Sword and P. Axe.  These guys are no joke when they get to hit stuff... and they are only 70 ish points and score...  

 

Only problem with the Raider is those dang Wraithknights... Kill them first and most Eldar will have trouble hurting you. 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

It's frustrating to field LR's against Eldar or Tau, because whilst you're immune to Missilesides, pulse weapons and largely don't care about the Riptide's main gun, both armies pack melta in precisely to deal with high AV. So while you laugh off Serpents and Broadsides, the Dragons, Crisis, and the secondary twin-linked fusion on the Riptide all open you up with one shot potentially (and they never just fire one at you, they'll focus). Wraithknights aren't even cost-effective, but bring LR's and they suddenly have purpose beyond being more expensive Fire Prisms. 

 

Knights are better off with Flyers. That's why the Raven is a superior transport, as you cut down their options to a Icarus or VT upgrade on Tau battlesuits (which they often eschew for EWO to grant them Interceptor instead). Serpents can still torrent you out of the sky, no question, but Dragons can't do much to you until you start hovering. 

 

GW really need to sort out their balancing when it comes to transports. Hull Points is the dumbest mechanic they've implemented to date. Instead of re-costing transports appropriately, or fixing the broken damage table for vehicles, they just slap on essentially the Wounds stat from infantry and call it a day. Overnight, they killed Chimeras and Rhinos, but for anything with strong cover or high AV (Tau, Eldar and Necrons), they're fine. Herp derp.